Author Topic: The Kopp-Etchells Effect  (Read 804 times)

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« on: August 18, 2009, 12:26:52 AM »
Never heard of such a thing before, but it looks bizarre. The photo is from Afghanistan.

Many more images here.

sand

Offline BlueJ1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5826
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 01:59:58 AM »
Ive seen this on our birds every once in a blue moon. Ive only seen it last for a few seconds. The best chance we have is when theres a thunderstorm and were in T1. Very cool looking. Thanks for the post, now I can sound smart to the booters when they ask what it is.
U.S.N.
Aviation Electrician MH-60S
OEF 08-09'

Offline Strip

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3319
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 02:09:25 AM »
If you asked me out of the blue I would have said the rotors were fixing to have a bad day. In fact it almost looks like the rotors came un-synced or something. Such a phenomena would have been my last guess, if I even got that far. Goes to show you all the weird things that we have yet to understand completely.

Edit: The camera used to take these photographs is phenomenal, in a few you could even see the exhaust housing glowing a red hue.

Thanks for posting this!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 02:14:35 AM by Strip »

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 04:04:52 AM »
It is a nice camera.. Wonder what it is.  There's no exif data.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2009, 06:07:01 AM »
That's pretty cool. I wonder if it's not just the rotors creating their own St Elmo's Fire like you get on the skin of aircraft when they fly near electrically charged thunderclouds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx_vFXd_zpk
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 06:14:09 AM by Die Hard »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline rabbidrabbit

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3910
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2009, 09:45:07 AM »
In reading the article, you will understand Yon made up the name to describe the effect.  It's a good read.

Offline Reschke

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7724
      • VF-17 "The Jolly Rogers"
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2009, 10:01:49 AM »
Great article and it is quite touching to think that the name for the effect that is very cool was given in rememberance of two men who died among friends.
Buckshot
Reschke from March 2001 till tour 146
Founder and CO VF-17 Jolly Rogers September 2002 - December 2006
"I'm baaaaccccckkk!"

Offline RipChord929

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1022
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2009, 10:39:22 AM »
Seen it many times, firsthand.. Usually in a rainstorm, but very high humidity will do it too...
I've seen CH 53's make a solid disk of yellowish/white fire in the spray, from the rotor downwash..
At night, standing, or floating, underneath it is spectacular without a doubt...Never seen it in
sand before, but it doesn't suprise me.. Apparently anything that can generate enough friction
on the blades, to build up the charge, will do it... Always called it St.Elmo's Fire...
Unless this is supposed to be a different phenomenon... Sure looks the same tho!!!

 :aok on the new name for it... That's the best kind of reason to rename something!!!

RC
"Well Cmdr Eddington, looks like we have ourselves a war..."
"Yeah, a gut bustin, mother lovin, NAVY war!!!"

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2009, 10:41:58 AM »
In reading the article, you will understand Yon made up the name to describe the effect.  It's a good read.

I did read the article, and I do understand he made up the name. However, the effect probably already has a name: St Elmo's Fire. And yes, it was a good read.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline PFactorDave

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4334
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2009, 12:04:39 PM »
It is a nice camera.. Wonder what it is.  There's no exif data.

Well, it's clearly a digital camera.  He was definitely shooting at a high ISO setting, 1600 or higher.  Probably more like 3200.  Even the best digital SLR cameras produce a "noisy" image at ISO settings above 800.  By noise, I mean the red and blue flecks throughout the image.

I don't know who Michael Yon is, but if he is a journalist working in Iraq, he is almost certainly shooting either a Canon EOS1D Mark2 (or Mark3) or whatever the latest and greatest Nikon body is these days (shoot Canon myself, so I don't keep track of the Nikon equipment).

You can pick up a Canon 1D Mark3 for a little less than $4k these days, without a lens. 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/484813-REG/Canon_1888B002_EOS_1D_Mark_III_10_1.html

They make a 1D that shoots a higher resolution, but this model of the 1D has the faster frame rate, which is what a working photo journalist generally prefers.  As for the lens, probably an 80-200 f2.8 IS.  That's a popular lens for a journalist, it isn't very bulky or heavy (like a 300 f2.8 would be, which is usually considered a sports lens), but it has some reach and the f2.8 gives you a lot of lighting flexibility.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/544676-USA/Canon__70_200mm_f_2_8L_IS_USM.html
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 12:10:55 PM by PFactorDave »

1st Lieutenant
FSO Liaison Officer
Rolling Thunder

Offline firbal

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2009, 01:53:40 PM »
It's just static electricity created by the rotor blades. Very common to see at night. Usely under NVG's. Every rotor crafts does this.

Former Army Blackhawk Crew Chief and Inspector.
Fireball
39th Fighter Squadron "Cobras in the Clouds"

Offline SPKmes

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3271
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2009, 03:34:26 PM »
It is similar to the balls of blue light emmitted in the wake from rotors of a ship ( or small boat I suppose also ) at night (daytime also but it's like the stars). I have tried to find pictures but can't find any. Can be quite mesmerising.

Offline bcadoo

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 685
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2009, 01:43:48 AM »
It is similar to the balls of blue light emmitted in the wake from rotors of a ship ( or small boat I suppose also ) at night (daytime also but it's like the stars). I have tried to find pictures but can't find any. Can be quite mesmerising.

No.  St. Elmo's Fire is from static electricity.  The light from ship's wakes is a response of luminescent plankton to quantifiable levels of flow agitation. (Bioluminescence)
The fight is the fun........Don't run from the fun!
"Nothin' cuts the taste of clam juice like a big hunk o' chocolate" - Rosie O'Donnell

Offline SEraider

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1755
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2009, 12:22:22 PM »
That be cool for Independants day celebration.  :aok  :lol
* I am the embodiment of Rule #14
* History is only recent.
* Stick and Stones won't break my bones, but names could "hurt" me.

CO Screaming Eagles

Offline PJ_Godzilla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2661
Re: The Kopp-Etchells Effect
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2009, 12:34:16 PM »
Seen it many times, firsthand.. Usually in a rainstorm, but very high humidity will do it too...
I've seen CH 53's make a solid disk of yellowish/white fire in the spray, from the rotor downwash..
At night, standing, or floating, underneath it is spectacular without a doubt...Never seen it in
sand before, but it doesn't suprise me.. Apparently anything that can generate enough friction
on the blades, to build up the charge, will do it... Always called it St.Elmo's Fire...
Unless this is supposed to be a different phenomenon... Sure looks the same tho!!!

 :aok on the new name for it... That's the best kind of reason to rename something!!!

RC


Best guess, based on your observ and the photo: it's reflections coming off the water that has condensed out of the air in the vicinity of the rotor. Typically, any airfoil moving through freestream has a pressure distribution on its upper surface that gets pretty low (usually peaks near some point around quarter chord - see Abbott and Von Doenhoff if you want examples).

In any case, reducing the pressure will tend to create precipitation of any suspended water. It'll precip out, likely fogging/coating the blades. I suspect then that if the light hits it just right you'd see a reflection.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.