The Brewster 1 month on

[Bronk]

The hurri IIc is the EW chog.

While I don't see a need to perk it, an eny adjustment is needed.

4 hizookas
2 500 lbers
turns well

the list goes on and on...

Yea adjustment is needed.

[BnZs]

BnZs,

That is your mistake.  You constantly try to remove the aircraft from their environment and judge them that way.  You cannot do that and get useful results.  Reality trumps theory, everytime.

Karnak:
The environment the HurriIIc operates in does *not* involve a2a combat? Superior E-fighters cannot have success, sometimes overwhelming success, against lower-performing adversaries? Are we playing the same game?

The purpose of the ENY system is to handicap the high numbers side, correct?

To lower the ENY of a plane relative another claim IS more or less asserting that it is a *better* plane in the arena environment than the other planes, that taking it away from the high numbers side will help level the playing field. There is no way to spin this: You MUST be asserting that the HurriIIc is a *better* airplane than a SpitV, 109F, Zero, Brewster, or other choices in the EW arena. Otherwise, one would be going purely by popularity, and I don't feel like forcing variety as an end unto itself is a good use of the ENY/Perk system. Like I've said before, ENY/Perks on popularity alone smacks of Fascism.

What I predict will happen if the ENY of the HurriIIc is lowered to 5 in the EW is that suddenly instead of a horde hanging over an out-numbered base picking in HurrIIcs, you'll have that same horde hanging there in SpitVs or Brewsters.

[Karnak]

BnZs,

The Hurri IIc operates in the EWA (for this discussion) and the results it posts speak for themselves.  No matter how much better the Bf109F-4 or Spitfire Mk Vb are on paper, they produce drastically inferior results in the reality of Aces High's EWA.

[Lusche]

Are we playing the same game?

That's what I'm asking me myself quite often - does Bnz really play the same game? You alway seem to ignore what is really happening in an arena.

The 109F and SpiV are not that much superior in performance vs Hurri IIC, which has the massiv advantage of being easy to fly AND having a vastly superior weapon package.

From day 1 on, it has both a superior K/D as well as superior kill numbers It has a superior K/D despite being the horde & noobs plane of choice. 35% of all kills AND K/D 2.0. Eny is about impact on gameplay...



BTW.. when I'm alone and suddenly 3 cons appear above me in EW... I'd rather prefer to be in a Hurri IIC vs 3 BF 109F instead of being in a 109F vs 3 Hurri IIC. And I do consider myself to be a quite capable 109 pilot 

[SmokinLoon]

It is funny how everything that I've read, and heard from other aviation buffs, that the Brewster was barely a force to be reckoned with in the air and the only thing that made it what it was were the highly trained pilots that flew them.

In AH, the 'lil Brewster seems to be far more capable that it ever was in the real deal.  But... I dont have HT's flight model formula and no one else does either.  So... dont challenge it.   

[BnZs]

It is funny how everything that I've read, and heard from other aviation buffs, that the Brewster was barely a force to be reckoned with in the air and the only thing that made it what it was were the highly trained pilots that flew them.

In AH, the 'lil Brewster seems to be far more capable that it ever was in the real deal.  But... I dont have HT's flight model formula and no one else does either.  So... dont challenge it.   

From what I've read, the relative performance of the Brewster vs. say the I16 is accurate, which means success against that plane is not a great surprise.

From what I've read, in the Pacific the Brewster was double-inferior to the Zero AND being flown by the inexperienced, which makes heavy losses unsurprising. Now the Brewster is obviously good enough to push a Zero pilot but the fact remains in AHII it is still a little below the Zeke in both turn and climb...again, sounds consistent with the record to me.

What you've got in the MAs right now is poor-turning LW fighters trying to cross swords with the Brewster in it's bailiwick instead of using the right tactics and being surprised when they fail. Once everyone successfully swallows the fact that the Brewster is in fact a very lightly wing-loaded fighter aircraft, rumors of UFO status will cease.

[BnZs]

That's what I'm asking me myself quite often - does Bnz really play the same game? You alway seem to ignore what is really happening in an arena.

My dear Lusche, if I go merely by what the masses choose to fly the most, then the 110G is superior to the 190 A5. 

If you are willing to say that the HurricaneIIc is actually superior to the other EW fighters, fine then. Agree to disagree.  According to my charts the 109F is ~60mph faster OTD and climbs ~1000fpm faster, but if to you that isn't a big a difference in performance...*shrug*

BTW.. when I'm alone and suddenly 3 cons appear above me in EW... I'd rather prefer to be in a Hurri IIC vs 3 BF 109F instead of being in a 109F vs 3 Hurri IIC. And I do consider myself to be a quite capable 109 pilot 

Three vaguely competent bandits with alt means your probably dead anything vs. anything, unless your plane gives you the ability to disengage. On the flip side, I daresay you and a wingman in 109Fs could bounce any number of HurrIIcs and basically use them as target practice until you were ready to disengage.

[thrila]

My dear Lusche, if I go merely by what the masses choose to fly the most, then the 110G is superior to the 190 A5. 

I would hope we can all agree that the 110 is generally flown for attack missions, and in that respect it is vastly superior to the 190.  Regardless, for the average pilot in AH it is much easier for them to get kills in the 110 than  in the 190.  A plane that can turn well and has good firepower complements (or compensates for) the flying style of most people in AH, à la flat turns until the enemy enters crosshairs and fire wildly. 

It's the same story with the hurri 2c and the 109 f.

[Bronk]

It is funny how everything that I've read, and heard from other aviation buffs, that the Brewster was barely a force to be reckoned with in the air and the only thing that made it what it was were the highly trained pilots that flew them.
 

The once stripped of the fat the navy crammed in it it was an arobatic aircraft.
Another notable US military fubar was the removal of the the turbo supercharger in the P-39.
It could have been one of the fastest aircraft in the US arsenal... shame really. 

[BnZs]

A plane that can turn well and has good firepower complements (or compensates for) the flying style of most people in AH, à la flat turns until the enemy enters crosshairs and fire wildly. 

It's the same story with the hurri 2c and the 109 f.

If *THIS* is the standard by which you think the planes should be "rated" by the perk/ENY system, then your thoughts on the game are VERY different from mine, and never the twain shall meet.

Though in other discussions you have been more willing to disregard turn and firepower and proclaim the importance of speed over all.

[thrila]

Most definately, i see ENY as a tool to increase diversity in the arenas, and perks to prevent aircraft that otherwise unperked would dominate usage. 

Though in other discussions you have been more willing to disregard turn and firepower and proclaim the importance of speed over all.

There is a difference between a plane's survivability and its ease to score a kill for the average AH pilot.

[E25280]

If you are willing to say that the HurricaneIIc is actually superior to the other EW fighters, fine then. Agree to disagree.  According to my charts the 109F is ~60mph faster OTD and climbs ~1000fpm faster, but if to you that isn't a big a difference in performance...*shrug*

Which means nothing if you do not start in a position to use that advantage.  Hurri's seem to hold their E very well and dive well enough to negate (for short periods of time) the top speed advantage the F has if the Hurri comes in with a little bit of speed and altitude.

Not to mention the fact the Hizookas are both extremely accurate and very deadly.  The IIC has a HUGE advantage when it comes to lethality, especially in low-percentage snapshots.  You can successfully rope a Hurri, and he sprays a few rounds right at the end of it -- and your goose can still be cooked. 

Three vaguely competent bandits with alt means your probably dead anything vs. anything, unless your plane gives you the ability to disengage. On the flip side, I daresay you and a wingman in 109Fs could bounce any number of HurrIIcs and basically use them as target practice until you were ready to disengage.

I didn't mention the face shot the first time, but I will here.     It isn't for an insignificant reason people often refer to it as the "HOicane."  Tough bird, too, so as the one of three, a IIC should take those face shots all day long -- he'd probably take at least two out by doing so, too.

So, if your idea of which plane is better is which one will be able to win an extended battle where both planes are flown to their limit, ending when one plane finally gets a killing shot behind the 3-9 line, I have no doubt the F would eventually win that fight.  But that just isn't the majority of AH combat, like it or not.

[Anaxogoras]

Pffft, if I start with a little altitude in the 109F, I don't care who is flying the Hurri II, I will avoid their feable HO attempts and shoot them down.


I thought this thread was about the Brewster.

[BnZs]

Which means nothing if you do not start in a position to use that advantage.  Hurri's seem to hold their E very well and dive well enough to negate (for short periods of time) the top speed advantage the F has if the Hurri comes in with a little bit of speed and altitude.

Many slow planes can catch fast planes via diving. The F4F can do this to a Pony. This does not mean the F4F is considered superior to the Pony for general MA purposes. A Corsair can do this to a Tempest...I could go on.

So, if your idea of which plane is better is which one will be able to win an extended battle where both planes are flown to their limit, ending when one plane finally gets a killing shot behind the 3-9 line, I have no doubt the F would eventually win that fight.  But that just isn't the majority of AH combat, like it or not.

I had implicitly assumed that was *everybody's* idea of the better plane...I've said it before, I'll say it again, do we *really* want how the planes "rate" defined by semi two-weekers?

Anax: You want Brewster talk? Okay, it is fairly clear that the Brewster owns the HurrIIc by every measure except firepower. 

[Widewing]

Anax: You want Brewster talk? Okay, it is fairly clear that the Brewster owns the HurrIIc by every measure except firepower. 

And.... It owns the Hurricane Mk.1 in every measure, including firepower...


It's a mean little beastie.


My regards,

Widewing