Spitfire Mk V? and P-38L .ord options...

[juzz]

1. What sort of Spitfire Mk V? It looks like a Mk Vb from the wing type, but it carries the 120rpg for the cannon like the Vc with the "universal wing" did. If it is supposed to be a Mk Vc, it should have the little stubs outboard the two cannon - and the four cannon option too of course!  

Also the Spitfire Mk V should have the option for 250lb bombs under the wings, I believe the first Spitfires to carry bombs were field-modified V's in Malta.

Maybe: we call this one Vb, and have a Vc in desert camo with four cannon and Vokes filter(with appropriate performance loss), too?  

2. The loadout options for the P-38L are amazingly similar to the F4U-1D, hmmm.... There should be an option for two 2000lb bombs, as well as all sizes below(eg: 1600lb). Where's the droop snoot?  

Couple of other things: The P-38 shows some really odd MAP readings with WEP over critical alt, ie: 10in. lower than with 100% power?! Also I think the Merlin 45(46) had a maximum boost setting of 16lbs, not 18lbs.

[wells]

The Merlin 45M was +18 for 5 mins.

[juzz]

Whats that M mean?

[Minotaur]

The P-38 also had provisions for 4 bombs and 2 drop tanks.  This worked I guess as long as the drop tanks were dropped first

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer

[SC-GManMP]

Juzz, you have to remember that the merlin 45's on the p38 were supercharged as well, and that would have alot to do with airflow and MAP... ALOT!

[snpr]

 

Originally posted by SC-GManMP:
Juzz, you have to remember that the merlin 45's on the p38 were supercharged as well, and that would have alot to do with airflow and MAP... ALOT!

The 38 had Allisons.  

[juzz]

 

The P-38 also had provisions for 4 bombs and 2 drop tanks.

You must mean the Fw190G!  

Seriously though; where did they put all that stuff on the P-38? I didn't think the outer wings carried anything but rockets, and there's only two inner pylons... And how come I only see six, not ten rockets on the "trees"?

Oh, and the P-38 engines were turbocharged!

[juzz]

Stupid me. On second inspection it appears the Spitfire V is using the IX's boost/critical altitude/fuel consumption settings, it hasn't been customised yet.

The P-38L still has some wierdo stuff going on - hit WEP at 29k and the MAP drops?!

[Minotaur]

Juzz;

My source is a book called "Lockheed P-38 Lightning" of the "Warbird Tech Series".  Written by Frederick A. Johnsen, cr1996

I must describe it, since I don't have any pictures to show.  There are 3 pylons under each wing.  All the pylons were mounted between the engine nacelles and the cockpit.  The space in that area is restricted and I am not sure what size bomb was used.

The center pylon under each wing was longer.  This pylon was where the drop tanks would go.  The loadout forming a triangle, with the drop tanks on the bottom.  The drop tanks had to be dropped before the bombs, or at the same time.

This meant the P-38 could carry up to six bombs. This pylon arangement also allowed asymmetrical stores.  IE: 5 bombs 1 Drop Tank

Pictures are shown of 4 bomb 2 drop tank and 5 bomb 1 drop tank load outs in the book.    

BTW, the book refers to these load outs as requiring extra "Shackles" to be installed.  I am assuming the term shackle and pylon are interchangable, but I am not sure.  

The book also describes the loadouts that are modeled in AH.  Those being 1 pylon per wing that could be fitted with asymmetrical stores.  Most commonly only up to a 1000 bomb per wing.

As you know, the P-38 was capable of carrying up to 2x2000 bombs, or even 2 torpedoes.  

Drop tanks for the P-38 were of several types.  A plywood tank made by a furniture manufacturer held 300 gallons.

As for rockets, they were carried by two methods.  10 was indeed the maximum number, for the "Christmas Tree Rack".  The one modeled in AH.  And the "Underwing Rack".  Which was the same method as is modeled for the F4U in AH.  The Underwing rack held 7 each for a total of 14 rockets

I think AH only graphically models only 3 rockets per rack.  I am not sure if that is an oversight or not.  The cockpit display shows that there are 10.

While I am on the subject.  Do you happen to know the difference between the P-38L-1-LO and the P-38L-5-LO?

I am pretty sure the engines were "TurboSupercharged".        

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 03-04-2000).]

[Minotaur]

 

The P-38L still has some wierdo stuff going on - hit WEP at 29k and the MAP drops?!

I'll check this out.

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer

[juzz]

 

The P-38L was produced in two blocks. The 1290 P-38L-1-LOs were similar to the P-38J-25-LOs except for the new engines. Some were modified by the USAAF as TP-38L-1-LO two-seat familiarization trainers. The 2520 P-38L-5-LOs had submerged fuel pumps and, after the unsatisfactory testing fourteen five-inch HVAR on zero-length launchers beneath the wing outer panel, underwing rocket "trees" for ten five-inch rockets were mounted. The racks underneath the wing center sections were strengthened to enable either 2000-lb bombs or 300-US gallon drop tanks to be carried.

So AH is modelling the P-38L-5-LO I guess.

[Gator]

> Do you happen to know the difference between the P-38L-1-LO and the P-38L-5-LO?

According to Martin Caidin, Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38, the L-5 had pressurized droppable fuel tanks & tank-mounted fuel booster pumps. (p. 171)

> I didn't think the outer wings carried anything but rockets

FWIW, in the spirit of this thread, Martin Caidin also discusses (p. 169) that when he was the historian for the Fifth Air Force during the Japanese occupation he encountered photographs and operational records of P-38J and L airplanes carrying 5,200 pounds of bombs, not just 4,000.  "Beneath the inner wing, between the engine nacelles and the fuselage, were two 2,000-pound bombs.  Beneath the wings, outboard of the engines, were four more bombs of 300 pounds each for the total of 5,200 pounds.  A careful study of the records at the time indicated that the airplanes flew on short-range combat missions carrying these staggering loads ..."

  I like his comment on p. 168 that "experience teaches that official documents often contain less than the full story."  

As per Juzz's initial post in this thread, has anyone heard why the 2x2,000 is not an AH loadout option?  I wandered around the hangar, and did not see 2,000 pounders for any aircraft, possibly they are not yet modeled in AH?  Not complaining, just curious if there was a reason ...

[Minotaur]

Gator and Juzz;

Thanks!  That clears that up for me and answers another question that I had.

I had read that in some instances the tube style rocket launchers of an earlier design were re-attached.  Originally these tubes were attached to the sides of the cockpit.  Re-attaching these tubes allowed the the A/C to carry rockets as well as some additional bombs, maximizing the loadout.

Putting this all together I am assuming that bombs were indeed carried outboard the tail booms on the wings.  It must have looked like a WW2 version of the A-10 WartHog.    

I often wish there was a larger role for JABO in AH.  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer

[Pyro]

Yep, you're right.  The little stubs over the cannon port are missing.  I still have some engine gauge detailing to do as well.

The P-38 doesn't have the 2000 lb bomb option yet because we haven't made any.  We'll add it when we do a little more work on the weapons.

Also, it was reported that only 3 rockets are visible instead of 5.  That was intentional due to technical reasons.

BTW, not to start any rumors because I'm only just curious, has anyone ever come across any good photos of the interior of the bombadiers compartment on the P-38J Droop Snoot?



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

"If it's stupid but works, it's not stupid."

[Gator]

> has anyone ever come across any good photos of the interior of the bombadiers compartment on the P-38J Droop Snoot?

  Excellent question.  I don't recall seeing any, and I flipped through my books, zippo.    I'd be interested in seeing some, too.  I was surprised that the "in detail and scale" for the P-38J did not have any, they must be rare.  FWIW, "in detail and scale" does have a picture of the three bomb pylons between the engine nacelles and fuselage that Minotaur mentioned earlier.

  Too bad, I'd love to contribute to some rumors ...