Put a price on ordinance

[Anaxogoras]

The price of ordinance would be small enough so that putting some of it on target and returning to base would earn the cost back.  This isn't about totally hamstringing people who want to bomb, but rather about adding just adding a little bit of motivation to balance out the takeoff-pork-bail/kamikaze cycle.  As things are now, if you want to pork as quickly as possible, there's absolutely no reason not to kamikaze or bail every time.

[Ack-Ack]

How would perking ordnance stop bombing and bailing and lanc dive bombing?  If the ordnance is perked I'm assuming that once you drop the perked ordnance you'd lose the perks...

It won't.  My wish for a perked ordnance system based on historical usage is not meant to modifier player behavior (i.e. bombing/bailing or dive bombing in Lancasters) but rather keep it in line with the actual historical usage of ordnance.  My wish stems from a discussion I had with Guppy on ordnance use with the P-38 and found out that they rarely used rockets, which I didn't know and thought P-38s routinely used them in ground attack missions.

I had to track down the quote, but here it is from another thread a while back. We were talking fuel loads and the bombs bit came up.  The 474th carried 1000 pounders routinely from the Fall of 44 and dived bombed with them.  They even carried 2000 pounders a few times and those had to be dropped at the same time.

Quote from the late Lloyd Wenzel

"Dan, We always carried full internal fuel on missions and kept tanks full for the reason
you mentioned. With weather in Europe you would never risk running short of fuel.  There
was no payload we carried that needed reduced internal fuel-even carried two 2000 lb
bombs a few times.  Had to use wooden sway bars that banged up the bird on bomb release
so we didn't do it often and 1k bombs were probably just as effective.  Both 2k bombs had
to be dropped together-on pull out, the bomb shackle would come off from g force. We took
off on reserve tank and used enough fuel to make room for the feed -back from the
carburater then switched to drop tanks, then leading edge, main and reserve.  The leading
edge tanks had their own boost pumps and a solenoid operated valve--you had to turn off
the main selector to confirm fuel flow.  Less time to look for the Hun!!"

The Iwo 51s used rockets for the first time in May of 45.  In theory they could carry 5 under each wing, but because they carried DTs they only had 3 under each wing.  I've never seen any photos anywhere of WW2 51s carrying both operationally.  I haven't seen any photo evidence of 9th AF or 15th AF 51s or 38s carrying rockets either.  That doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just haven't seen anything to show it did.  There are photos of Korean era 51s carrying either 500 pounders and rockets or napalm and rockets, but they of course were closer to the fight and didn't need DTs.

The 428th FS, 474th FG history has the loadouts listed for every mission they flew, and the never carried rockets.  They were the last 38 group in the ETO right until the end.

The only photo I've seen of a rocket railed equipped bird is in the 49th FG history and obviously that would be a 38L.  The comment there was when they did carry rockets they routinely didn't carry 20mm ammo.  This was when the airwar for the 38s was essentially gone in the Pacific and when they were flying ground support in the Phillipines etc.

Basically, I would like it for historical reasons rather than trying to modify player behavior.


ack-ack

[Nemisis]

The price of ordinance would be small enough so that putting some of it on target and returning to base would earn the cost back.  This isn't about totally hamstringing people who want to bomb, but rather about adding just adding a little bit of motivation to balance out the takeoff-pork-bail/kamikaze cycle.  As things are now, if you want to pork as quickly as possible, there's absolutely no reason not to kamikaze or bail every time.

No, your not hamstringing all bombers, but rather the guys who can't get a gunner, or whos gunning skills suck. You can't expect all the people who bomb to have good gunners, to gun good themselves, and that they will die once outa ammo, or in the middle of a mob. Lets say my gunning skills are average, and there for the ammount of times I land will drop, and there for my number of perks will drop, and the number of bombs I carry will drop, and the number of sorties I fly will drop. Its a spiraling loop leading to mass quiting by less than expert bombers and gunners.

[grizz441]

The price of ordinance would be small enough so that putting some of it on target and returning to base would earn the cost back.  This isn't about totally hamstringing people who want to bomb, but rather about adding just adding a little bit of motivation to balance out the takeoff-pork-bail/kamikaze cycle.  As things are now, if you want to pork as quickly as possible, there's absolutely no reason not to kamikaze or bail every time.

I think the bomb and bail problem is overstated.  In the countless hours of playing this game I've honestly probably seen a bomber drop his bombs and then bail maybe twice.  The other countless hundreds of times, he either got shot down, shot me down, or rtb'd.  As for the kamikaze thing, I've seen this a little more often, usually at a carrier.  Still, the better fix would be to put a cap on the ability of a bomber to drop bombs at too steep of an angle. 

You're right though, if a player wants to pork and suicide there's no penalty other than the fact that he is a dweeb and everyone knows it.  That goes for fighters too, not just bombers, and IMO, suiciding Fw190A8's are more of a 'problem' than this bomber thing.  If a player really wants to suicide for good of country, then that's his choice.  His penalty is people knowing what a putz he is.

[TheAce]

[Anaxogoras]

Count yourself lucky then grizz.  I've seen bomb and bailers many more times than you.

[grizz441]

Count yourself lucky then grizz.  I've seen bomb and bailers many more times than you.

Maybe I'm blind, Idk.  I see more suicide porkers who will willfully dive down  in jugs or a8s and strafe buildings as many times as they can before their plane is destroyed.

[Getback]

Noooooooooooooooo! Jabos is one of the games most exciting features. I like it when I dive in wipe out a hanger and then mix it up some. Killed a cv in my F4U-1D yesterday. Even lived!!  


As far as 110s are concerned, I caught 4 110s, a p51D, and a goon doing an NOE yesterday. I was fortunate to get the kills on them. They are not worth perking. They have worthy guns for sure. Just avoid the ho. I'm not sure what that P51 was doing he just flew nice and level so I did a low deflection on him and took out his radiator. He succumbed a few minutes later.

[thndregg]

If you want more fights then encourage more people to carry bombs.  They will then use them to attack something, somewhere.  This will encourage a defence, which will encourage an escorted attack etc.. No problem.  

If bombs and perks need any further entanglement then give people who carry bombs more perks, a greater reward, for handicapping their ride at the start of the fight.  If you don't like people carrying bombs to "your" field then you already have powerful options.  You can kill the ordnance completely at the base they are coming from or quite easily and readily exploit the advantages of the fighter over the bomb carrier and just shoot them down. This concept is the most basic, but yet proves to be the most elusive solution to some. No ord bunkers: no bombs. No barracks: no troops & supplies

If you want more "pure" furballing in the MA you won't get it by stopping bombing or punishing bombers.  You'll just get less fights.  You will only get that by having an appropriate map in rotation, a la "Donut." Agree. In a way, this relates to your sig line.