Author Topic: Engines runing full blast  (Read 6874 times)

Offline Stoney

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2009, 05:54:34 PM »
stuff...

First, nice link and info.  You always have the cool links...

But, it was pretty much SOP for most annecdotal accounts I've read, that once contact was made, the throttle was firewalled and left in that condition until the fight was over.  I'm not necessarily arguing against you Baumer, I'm just saying...  :)

(and I'm one that would like an engine management option much like manual trim or takeoff)
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Offline Dantoo

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2009, 06:38:14 PM »
Quote
since I don't climb to the normal 15K to dive in and pick like the rest. I am tired of some friendly zooming past me to get the kill on the plane I just tore half a wing off only 600 out.

Then your "solution" is entirely contradictory or perhaps irrelevant to your "problem".  In the case that you state, the aircraft coming down from high will already be throttled back running in cool mode.  He will not only beat you to your quarry still, but your own engine will start to fail because of your required full throttle effort to keep up with an opponent in a similar E state.

Your solution makes your situation worse.

My understanding is that realism is relaxed in this game so as to allow players to spend more time fighting each other rather than their equipment.  Your proposal appears to reverse that notion if adopted.  If you wish to experience a slightly greater level of realism and immersion, you might look at participating in special events.  Many of them require close cooperation and support for successful outcomes (read - fun, happiness, pleasant memories).
I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

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Offline j500ss

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2009, 08:28:53 PM »
Well I myself would like to see some sort of engine management OPTION  :x ,  It almost has to be optional, or at least assigned to a particular arena or maybe special event. I cannot for the life of me imagine guys sitting OTR, warming up an engine, wanting to get into the fight.  Cause in real life take off was NOT a turn key operation, it takes time folks.

Maybe HT could code it as such that there were just some aspects of EM available, thats if they were to do it at all. I just don't see it happening, there would be a ton of peeps doing nothing but  :furious, about how they were in a great fight only to SQUEAK the motor, and its not just about WEP settings causing that, flying inverted for periods of time,  oil and coolant hits, radiator settings, mixtures @ different alts, cylinder head temps, and more caused failures.

Add in lack of todays technology, in parts manfacturing and materials, and fact is motors were just not as reliable, stuff happened. 

Offline Saxman

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2009, 08:56:26 PM »
NO.

As I believe was stated elsewhere, the artificially imposed over-heat times are no less realistic (in fact, potentially MORE so) than the lack of overheats at all.

And this is from someone who DOES regularly use cruise in the mains.
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Offline ToeTag

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2009, 12:13:52 AM »
I've said it once and I'll say it again........If this game were realistic nobody would be able to play it.  Mainly because you would need a flight instructor and a large amount of money to pay them.  (If HTC wants to do this I'm in @ 50.00 an hour) Secondly your first months buy in rate for the game would be about 1.5 million for a war bird and about $1000.00 dollars an hour to fly it.  I'm sure HiTech would love to have you in his subscriber base of a realistic flight sim and I'll take you'r $4,000.00 to teach you how to fly one.  The game is great for 15 bucks.:aok
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2009, 12:18:42 AM »
The MIL power setting in AHII represent settings at which the engine could run for periods longer than the average MA sortie lasts. A "firewalled" throttle in AHII isn't because you still have to hit the WEP button to *really* firewall it.
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Offline Noir

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2009, 01:12:32 AM »
Off topic, were the pilots able to set the pitch of the prop blades manually ? Did they have to or was there an "auto" mode ?
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Offline bozon

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2009, 02:36:56 AM »
Off topic, were the pilots able to set the pitch of the prop blades manually ? Did they have to or was there an "auto" mode ?
In a constant speed prop you can change it indirectly by changing the RPM. In practice you control RPM and throttle, the pitch is adjusted by the plane mechanics to maintain the RPM you set.
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Offline Noir

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2009, 02:56:37 AM »
In a constant speed prop you can change it indirectly by changing the RPM. In practice you control RPM and throttle, the pitch is adjusted by the plane mechanics to maintain the RPM you set.

So what do you mean is that when you lower RPM, the blades rotate to have more air "intake" ? i.e. the cross section gets larger, if you get what I mean, its been 5 minutes I'm thinking about how to write that  :huh
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2009, 07:11:55 AM »
Its a little more complicated than that.  Think of it this way, all constant speed props have a "forward" and "rearward" limit of blade angle of attack (AoA).  There is hydraulic pressure supplied by fluid driven by an engine mounted pump called the prop governor.  You set RPM within the available range of RPM settings, and the prop governor attempts to create the hydraulic pressure necessary to hold the blade at the AoA necessary to maintain that RPM.

A more accurate description can be found here:  http://www.hariguchi.org/flying/info/prop.html

Hydraulic constant speed propellors are most common now.  During WWII, it was more common to find electrically driven props.  The pilot still set the pitch by desired RPM, but an electrically driven motor rotated the blades.

Its important to note that constant speed propellors can suffer from overspeed conditions, even though they are used to create "constant" RPM.  We don't have this modelled in AH2, but a long, high speed dive in most planes in-game would overspeed the props.
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Offline chewie86

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2009, 09:51:16 AM »
I agree with clone155's wish, but since the MA is some kind of "arcade'ish" flight simulation I dont think we will never see an overheat of the engine going full power for the whole flight. If anyone have read Clostermann's book his tempest-V's temperature indicator could go in the danger zone if he kept the throttle too longer at full (more or less).

BTW as Noir stated, in Scenarios the fuel management makes you to turn down the throttle to 30 / 60 %, so we gain a bit of realism in those events (and I'm on Euro-time zone, damn me).

Why dont we keep this wish in the priority list of Combat Tour along with pilot training, career, experienced G-forces capability, cockpit mirrors, reflections, night fighters with radar, night time, aircraft's customed victories paintings on the fuselage, rescue missions for POWs and bailed over nme territory etc etc .... ?   :noid

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Offline LLogann

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2009, 10:37:23 AM »
It's a cute idea for sure, but NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

The game is great sure, but the Business is far more important. 

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Offline 1Boner

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2009, 10:55:51 AM »

  I would like this to be added because first of all it would make it realistic.

Hopping in a plane,starting the engine and simply taking off isn't very realistic either.

The list of unrealistic things in this "game" could go on and on.

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Offline Stiglr

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2009, 12:20:47 PM »
This is a very humorous thread to read... :rofl

The responses are to be expected, too.

Here's some facts for you to consider:

Operating manuals for ALL aircraft contain instructions on the marshalling of engines. Certainly there's some "margin of safety" built in, but you can bet that the militaries of combatant nations did NOT take steps to make sure their pilots went in to combat "babying" their engines just for the hell of it. But, neither did they want them to burn the engines out. There IS a need for proper care, feeding and use of engines.

Most of these aircraft had mixture controls, cooling flaps/gills and if not automatic, prop governors or RPM controls. These weren't placed into aircraft for grins and giggles either. The proper use or misuse of these systems could make the difference between a pilot coming home or not (and often did). These systems weren't there for political correctness. They represented the technology of the times, and were vital to the operation of the aircraft. Anything they could make "set and forget" they DID. Other stuff, well, you didn't have to like it, but you did have to deal with it.

Now, all of you who are saying that engine management is "much ado about nothing" are simply ignoring these facts because you're used to being able to roar around at full throttle with absolutely no consequences. That's pure gamer entitlement mentality. There's no other explanation for it.

A detailed, realistic flight sim simply WILL have detailed engine management. It's not that hard to implement, really. A few more commands to remember. But the key is: it isn't about how "hard" it is to do (how hard is it for a pilot to reach over and adjust a control or two? The same relative effort as it takes a sim pilot to type a command or manipulate a button on his gear); it's all about the fact that you must remember to do these things, or you get some very bad results. Like:

Heat. That's #1. You go roaring about at 100%, and your engine WILL overheat. Fail to do something about that, and it'll start to sputter and act up just when you need full power the most. Now, you people who want to pull out your Pratt & Whitney test bed data go ahead: I'll just mention that an engine up on blocks without even the metal fairing around it, let alone in real combat conditions will likely purr along a lot better for a lot longer than it would in the field. And, not all engines were as reliable and rugged as P&Ws.

Cooling gills: these can be opened to dissipate heat... but they're a double edged sword. They also create DRAG, and can make a plane more likely to spin, especially on the knife-edges of combat. So, the wise pilot will want to have the gills open during transit periods or "reset" times, and will prefer to close them during the thick of combat.

Those are just a few considerations.

Then, I recall someone whined about the indignity of perhaps having to travel at lower throttle to get from point a to point b. It could take a whole 5 minutes longer to reach a destination (even on a map with 1/3 vertical scale). Oh, boo hoo! FACT: Pilots who had to travel hundreds of miles over ocean often had to "lean out" and cruise at half throttle. Even those vaunted P-51s with drop tanks that could get to Berlin. The reason they could, and still have fuel to mix it up once they got there... was that they used slow cruises and drop tanks. They didn't go 400 mph+ the whole way there and the whole way back.

Here's some other things you might be missing...

1) Did you ever consider that, if everyone can fly at "full level speed" all sortie, it might be harder to catch them or keep contact, unless you have a head-on merge situation? This all-the-time-full-speed flying completely skews every combat situation.

2) Ever wonder how the real pilots could get surprised and bounced, when you know they only had one life to live and you know that THEY KNEW it? Yet, history tells us that they did get bounced all the time. One explanation is that some of them were "head in office" checking engine heat, adjusting mixture, or checking the fuel gauge and not watching outside all the time. This is a VERY important tactical consideration. Without any form of engine management in your sim, you're getting a very artificial advantage (perhaps even more artificial than the head lean allowing you to basically put your head out of the cockpit and get completely ridiculous "Linda Blair" views :) )

Finally, as to the "realism ruins the fun" argument... that's bollocks. I fly a sim that has engine management (and it's somewhat simplified, yet still much more involved than most sims), and I can report that the extra detail makes it MORE fun, not less. I have developed a routine for keeping my engine cool(er), and at times, it can make the difference in a fight: like when I come across some other guy who doesn't marshall his engine and then wonders why he starts smoking and coughing during the fight. I also can remember to my embarassment where I forgot to change from lean to rich while I was "cleaning up" for a fight, and my engine STILL overheated after a few minutes of maneuvering. Lean makes the engine run hotter... so going full throttle on LEAN is just not a good idea. User error: and I paid the price. I also learned something, and gained even more appreciation for what the real pilots had to go through to stay alive.

Just a few thoughts for those of you who are resistant to more realism in your sim.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2009, 12:46:18 PM »


Heat. That's #1. You go roaring about at 100%, and your engine WILL overheat.

And if you go around with your throttle firewalled in AHII, (which you have to hit the WEP button to do), your engine will overheat and automatically retard the the throttle. Do we all "get" that in AHII, pushing your throttle fully forward doesn't *really* firewall it? So talking about people flying around with their (joystick) throttles firewalled is meaningless. What the OP is basically questioning (if he has a meaningful point at all) is whether or not HTC has modeled the power settings one can use continuously correctly. And if one means to argue that they have not, some proof is in order.
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