Icons for GV's

[OOZ662]

His past posts have absolutely nothing to do with the suggested removal of icons on GVs in any sort of way...you're just happy to find a partial link between the fact that he uses tanks to pick on him.

If you like, I suggest you go start a thread whining about his conduct and taking jabs at his morality and duke it out there. This thread is about tank icons.

[straffo]

Yes, get rid of the GV completely!!!

corrected

[grizz441]

Yeah I remember you Sethie. Heres how you fight legit. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,263487.0.html

So now you want no icons and those pesky IL2s to come in flat so's you can whack them with your bouncing tank shell technique? If I ever see you in tank town I think I'll upp some Lanc-stukas. Ive never done that before but one gamey road kill technique does deserve another.

At least I know how you kill so many IL2s. You use a cheesy,overlooked mistake in the game modeling. And here you are crying about bomb****s and icons. You naughty boy.
  

I thought he made some really strong arguments in this thread actually.

Hey Seth, let me ask you question that I mentioned earlier in this thread.  What about skdz and m3s icons?  I think it would be an unfair base capturing advantage if planes couldn't see them.  Do you think that tanks should only have icons deactivated when they aren't moving perhaps?  And if that was the case, it would take a recoad to make it happen because I don't think the arena platform would allow such an option to be easily accessible...

[OOZ662]

That's why I submit that icons be engaged when the vehicle's engine is on or the wheels are moving. As I've read (which isn't much), many tank groups were spotted due to the rumbling of the mechanics and the ground, not because a pilot looked down and saw tanks. Since that can't really be modeled (we generally don't have one giant pack of tanks, but rather single units spread out all over the place outside of TT), I think the above makes a bit of sense.

[sethipus]

Personally, I don't think enemy GVs should have icons at all, whether they're moving or not.  M3s are actually the easiest GVs to spot in the whole game, as they appear (at least on my screen) as a very light, almost flourescent green, which stands out on the ground as they move.  Plus, if you turn off your plane motor for a few seconds, you can hear where the GV engine noise is coming from, so at least you get a direction to look in.  I know that's gamey in the same way I acknowledge that shooting down planes with a tank gun is gamey, but given the departure from real life conditions that we already suffer, it's a tradeoff between gameplay and realism.  In real life there'd be all sorts of people on the ground looking for the enemy, hearing the engine noise, seeing the vehicles, etc.

Back to my troll critic:  so freaking what?  Yes, I blow up a lot of planes using my T34 main gun.  And let me fill in the rest of the story here.  Every one of the planes I kill is engaging in gamey, non-realistic behaviour themselves.  For the most part if planes fly like planes in WWII really did, I can't touch them with my main gun.  You tell me how many Spitfires or LA7s or Ponies or whatever strafed tanks and kept firing until the last instant and then passed 10 feet over the tank turret.  How freaking gamey is that?  And why do these dweebs do it?  Because if they pump enough machine-gun bullets into my armor, they might be credited with the "kill" when someone else actually finally destroys my tank.  How freaking gamey is that?

If you don't want to be shot in the engine block with my main gun, don't do that gamey-azz crap that people in this game do against GVs every single day.  Do you have any idea how close to the ground a plane has to be to die when my HE round goes off in the dirt underneath him?  Did planes in WWII ever really strafe vehicles and pass over them that low?  NO!  If you're blowing up to my HE rounds in the dirt, then I'm using a gamey, unrealistic tactic to convince you to stop doing your gamey, unrealistic tactic.

What's funny is that you throw my old post in my face as if I'm supposed to be embarassed by that.  Hell no.  I'm proud of that post.  I've killed probably close to 120 planes this month alone in my T34.  And all but about a dozen or so that I destroyed on the runway or coming out of the hangar were killed doing perfectly dweeby crap, and they deserved to die that way.

And none of this has to do with the OP.  The question is whether guys in the air should see an icon for an enemy ground vehicle.  I don't think they should.  At all.  Take away the "easy mode" neon sign from the airplanes against ground vehicles, and maybe a few more folks will actually up a tank, *gasp*, to stop an enemy tank attack.

If you want to bomb**** or ILtard against the tanks, then fine, do it.  But why do you really need to have that neon sign handholding?  Would it be too hard for you to bomb tanks without your exact altitude above the tank being shown to you in neon red?

[BnZs]

  If you think the "no enemy gv icons when viewed from a tank" setup, then why do you oppose it from planes? 

Very simple to answer. When tanking it is practical for you to use maximum zoom, scan around, and also use your main gun telescopic view to see and identify other tanks. And IMO, tanks are still unrealistically and problematically difficult to detect even with those advantages. Methinks there needs to be an additional view added to tanks "Tank commander w/ field glasses" or some such, basically a view as telescopic as the main gun view but from the pintle position.

Methinks you don't tank very much.

In my case, that would be wrong.

The bottom line is that in real life, while it would be unrealistic for tanks to shoot down airborne planes with their main guns, the tanks would also be accompanied by anti-aircraft batteries, infantry with automatic weapons, and so forth.  Like I said before, tank battles in real life involved thousands of people.  Fighters did not dive down and strafe tanks unhindered, passing five to ten feet over the tops of the tanks.  IL2s were not free to just circle above and make countless dives onto a given tank and peck it to death, without having to run a gauntlet of various weapons fired at it from the ground.  Show me where B-25s were ever used as anti-tank platforms in the way they are in Aces High.

Obviously, the air-to-ground fighter strafing and whatnot is occurring in a totally unrealistic way. 

You are (correctly) pointing out that the reason GVs have such a tough life in AHII is the fact that there are consistently far more aircraft than GVs in the arenas. You are (correctly) pointing out that lightly armed fighters did not dive down and strafe tanks for the most part, albeit that is mainly because it would be a waste of ammo. They DID dive down and strafe nearly everything else you mention though.

Look, you hit the nail on the head about what is needed to protect your GVs...air cover or flaks. Both are readily available. If you can't find people in sufficient numbers to provide air cover or flaks, I'm sorry, I really am. But don't ask for a special invisibility advantage for GVs.

I mean, I like P-47s. Realistically they were used as escort fighters way up above 20K where they performed just as well, or better than almost anything. But in AHII there is hardly any action up there...so I guess I should just  on the forums to get HTC to change P-47D performance to be more competitive on the deck, or give me an invisibility cloak for my Jug, or some such nonsense.

[Tilt]

and while we are here enemy troops should not have icons either................ however then we can set capture to 20+ or even 30+ troops without dragging FR rates down watching all thos icons.(provided the FR is not trying to render every trooper at 1500 yards)

re GV's IMO they should be able to hide without the "I'm down here!" icon switching on. As I understand it when a players FR can "see" the origin point of a GV then the icon comes on. I would suggest just making this origin point area (that has to be seen) bigger and setting it so that it all has to be seen before the icon switches on.

[onan]

But don't ask for a special invisibility advantage for GVs.

There isn't an invisibility advantage being asked for here.
What is being asked for is a pro plane advantage to be relaxed in certain areas.

Q?: Would you see a GV parked under a bridge, in a barn/farmhouse, an enemy base hanger or in thick brush if not for the icon.

I'll be generous and bet 80% of the time no.

[sethipus]

Exactly.  Currently, planes have an advantage against tanks that tanks don't even have against each other.  Why the need for Easy Mode for airplanes?  Are the bomb****s really that hooked on seeing their enemy pointed out in neon red signs above their heads, and the range to them being shown, constantly updated, so they can just drop their bombs at just the right altitude?

If guys in tanks have to learn how to judge enemy tank distance by sight, rather than use an icon to tell them the range, then what's so bad about guys dive-bombing tanks having to do the same thing?

I can't even tell you how many times, because it's so freaking many, I've been approaching an enemy base or town in some armored vehicle, or M3, and shut down under a grove of trees, and then had some plane show up and fly right up and bomb me, when there's no way he would have seen me but for the neon red sign above my head.  It makes it impossible to be smart and hide, and use the terrain to one's advantage in a tank, and it's an incredibly lame advantage for planes when they hardly need any advantage.  If anything, dive-bombing and strafing tanks in this game is unrealistically easy and risk free.

In my view, in this game we have airplane versus airplane fights, we have fighter versus bomber fights, and so forth.  GVs exist in this game for those who enjoy that dimension.  I currently don't mind the way tank vs. tank fights go.  I currently think tanks should be fighting other tanks.  If people want to bomb tanks then fine, they can do it, but they should not have an Easy Mode advantage in doing so, that in fact turns out to make tanks less attractive to people, and dramatically encrappens the tank vs. tank game.  There's nothing more frustrating than being in a good, small-group tank battle and having some buttwipes show up over and over again in planes and bomb the tanks into the ground with relative impunity, and unrealistic risk vs. reward.

[grizz441]

In my view, in this game we have airplane versus airplane fights, we have fighter versus bomber fights, and so forth.  GVs exist in this game for those who enjoy that dimension.  I currently don't mind the way tank vs. tank fights go.  I currently think tanks should be fighting other tanks.  If people want to bomb tanks then fine, they can do it, but they should not have an Easy Mode advantage in doing so, that in fact turns out to make tanks less attractive to people, and dramatically encrappens the tank vs. tank game.

+1

[BnZs]

There isn't an invisibility advantage being asked for here.
What is being asked for is a pro plane advantage to be relaxed in certain areas.

The icon for seeing a GV from a plane will appear at 1.5K (almost within flak range). The icon for seeing a plane from a GV will appear at 6K distance. This hardly constitutes a "pro-plane" advantage.

Q?: Would you see a GV parked under a bridge, in a barn/farmhouse, an enemy base hanger or in thick brush if not for the icon.

I'll be generous and bet 80% of the time no.

You can't really say that. There are too many variables. I have some experience in this area. Frankly, a lot of times game or lost cattle are easier to spot from the air in brushy terrain than from the back of an ATV.

In the AHII 3-D world, there really is no terrain feature that completely takes away all possible lines-of-sight for an aircraft except possibly being parked deep within a hangar.A I imagine there are limits to what can be coded into the icon. I've said it before, it already seems like HTC has been fair about this, making your multi-ton Tiger's icon only appear at 1.5K no matter the conditions, while a small fighter's icon appears at 6.

[BnZs]

In my view, in this game we have airplane versus airplane fights, we have fighter versus bomber fights, and so forth.  GVs exist in this game for those who enjoy that dimension.  I currently don't mind the way tank vs. tank fights go.  I currently think tanks should be fighting other tanks.  If people want to bomb tanks then fine, they can do it, but they should not have an Easy Mode advantage in doing so, that in fact turns out to make tanks less attractive to people, and dramatically encrappens the tank vs. tank game.  There's nothing more frustrating than being in a good, small-group tank battle and having some buttwipes show up over and over again in planes and bomb the tanks into the ground with relative impunity, and unrealistic risk vs. reward.

Frankly, if you don't want A2G or G2A action in the game, I think you'd be in a minority. I suppose that means also that only planes should fight other planes (no flaks?).  And if you want exclusive tank v tank action, the main arenas in a game called "Aces High" are an illogical place to look for it. There is NOTHING unrealistic about a few unprotected/most unprotected tanks rolling under copious enemy air cover and getting the crap bombed out of them. Once again, the fact that you can't get fighter or flak cover for your tanks is a population dynamics problem, not something you can ask the HTC team to fix.

Frustration? There is nothing more frustrating than being a good 1v1 when interlopers show up. There is nothing more frustrating than getting shot at by flaks while chasing a bandit. (Have you considered what your invisible GVs would be like when people inevitably start using them to ack-drag?) If you want a completely non-frustrating experience, online gaming is possibly not the place for you. Further, there are at least a half dozen things more frustrating in GVing than getting bombed by aircraft. Spawn-camps, the visual difficulties that make one feel that they are fighting invisible entities, and the awkwardness of the tank interface itself are all worse turn-offs in GVing.

[BigKev03]

Don't know if it possible due to programming challenges but I think this may be a compromise of some sort.  what if GV icons were disabled until a GV comes within 1.5k or 2.0k of a base?  That way the GV maintains some hiding capability unless spotted moving and then when you hit the 1.5k or the 2.0k mark your icon pops on that way you don't have the enevitable rush of Gv's to a base in the so called "invisisble" mode.  Just a thought.  The range could be adjusted either way.

Have fun on the hack,

BigKev

[Rich46yo]

Sethie isnt old enough to figure out name calling generally doesnt bring a very good response back.

His arguements are nothing new. This has all been suggested numerous times, as has been perk the ords, geld the IL2s, perk the 37mms. Its all good until it degenerates into

I'm all for removing enemy GV icons.  The whole IL-2, B-25H, bomb**** thing is getting out of hand.  I GV a lot, and I really appreciate a good GV fight.  There's nothing worse than being in a decent tank battle and having some bomb****s show up and just pummel you into the ground continually.  And don't even start with the "well just bring some wirbles" crap.  There are plenty of times when there simply aren't enough people available to fill up all of the theoretical slots in whatever fight we're having.  In real life these battles would be fought by thousands, in this game we'll have sometimes two or three guys on one side versus two or three guys on the other.  And then the bomb****s show up and ruin it.

Or..

I've killed a metric zillion IL-2s, B-25s, and other planes with my main gun in my T34.  Sure, it works with the worst of the noobs, but the more experienced ILtards know to just come in from a higher angle.

Its the old, "everyone else who doesnt do what I do is a tard", and "waaa,waaa,waaa I got my tank killed." And its twice weekly, this bonehead kid throwing in the added bonus of name calling. For Gods sake man up and play the game!

Icons only are useful when you are either flying directly over the GV or not far off to the side. And even then you can be very high in Alt. Just spending an additional 5 mins taking an indirect route to where you want to go will help immensly. Try taking a lone airplane to an enemy base and see how long you last against multiple cons. Why would GV'ing be any different?

I gotta tellya I think theres a lot of GV'ers who still want to play the game the old way. Back when one would suicide a base's ords and then take their tank anywheres they want. Still it wouldnt bother me if the distance for the GV icon was lessened. Maybe down to 1 k.

[sethipus]

Frankly, if you don't want A2G or G2A action in the game, I think you'd be in a minority.

If you read carefully what I have posted in this thread, in a handfull of posts, you'd know that I have never said that.  I have repeatedly said that I'm not against planes attacking GVs in this game.  My only comment on this has been that the Easy Mode be done away with.

At 1.5k a plane can easily spot a tank moving in the open.  Unfortunately, at 1.5k the plane also easily sees GVs that are deliberately hiding under trees, inside barns, hangars, and what have you.  You keep arguing that a plane would always be able to see a tank easily, even under trees, from a mile away (which 1.5k is almost).  I respectfully disagree.  Most of the tank paint schemes seem to be expressly designed to aid in camoflaging the vehicle, and a camoflaged Tiger, in a grove of trees, should not stick out like a sore thumb to a plane a mile away.

Then there's the issue of divebombing aids.  The range indicated under the icon is a bombing aid, period.   You cannot argue this.  A bomb has to travel 1000 feet in this game to be armed.  Drop it too low and it doesn't go off.  Drop it too high and it's harder to hit with.  The range indicator gives the vehicle bomber an Easy Mode bomb dropping gauge.  He doesn't have to have any time of experience or skill in actually estimating his height over the target, he just watches the number.  When it gets to the right number, he drops his bomb, pulls out, and flies off.  This is Easy Mode.  I'm sorry if you can't see that, but you cannot get away with denying it.  It's Easy Mode, period.

I have repeatedly said that I'm not trying to do away with the air to ground war.  If you wish to dive bomb tanks, then fine, but I want to see you do it without the Easy Mode advantages that come with the red neon sign and range indicator.  When I kill an enemy tank in this game, I have to estimate its range correctly in order to score a hit with my main gun.  Those who suck at range estimation tend to get killed off repeatedly by those who are good at it.  There's no reason dive-bombing planes should have it any easier.  On the contrary, it should, if anything, be harder to bomb a tank than to shoot it from another tank, since tanks in this game have so little they can do about it.

Once again, the fact that you can't get fighter or flak cover for your tanks is a population dynamics problem, not something you can ask the HTC team to fix.

This is a typical retort, with which I respectfully disagree.  A solo guy can bomb**** tanks all day long.  He doesn't need to drag a crew with him to enable it.  You're arguing that it's reasonable for guys who wish to fight in a tank to have to drag around a crew with them the whole time just to enable that.  There's no balance here - the solo bomtard is only adequately counteracted by a whole crew on the ground?  Still, planes can carry bombs in this game, it's a fact of life.  But there's no good justification for them doing so in Easy Mode.

Further, there are at least a half dozen things more frustrating in GVing than getting bombed by aircraft. Spawn-camps, the visual difficulties that make one feel that they are fighting invisible entities, and the awkwardness of the tank interface itself are all worse turn-offs in GVing.

Spawn camps can be frustrating, but the frustration need only last a few minutes.  It's not that hard to break a spawn camp.  Most of the time the spawn camper had to travel a while to get there.  Kill him and the camp is broken.  I've often died four, five, six times before I located the spawn camper and finally killed his nasty azz, but it can be done, then the tables can be turned.  The tank interface becomes second nature with practice and good controls setup.  The visibility problems can be mitigated to some extent by the use of sound.  Turn the engine off quite often and gauge where the enemy is by the sound of his engines.  There's all sorts of tactics and skills that one builds up in GVing a lot in this game.  The only thing you can't really do anything about, without dragging a crew around to support you, is get away from bomb****s.  Fine, so be it, but make the bomb****s learn to bomb accurately without Easy Mode on.