Author Topic: Im confused  (Read 1326 times)

Offline PanosGR

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Im confused
« on: August 28, 2009, 08:11:35 AM »
Ok im confused. I know from the game that spit’s uber turn is unmatched as it compare to 109. I also know that even Pony can turn harder than the 109 esp in hands of guys like SkatSR, Steve or uptown. But in the video below guys that actually fly these planes seems to have different opinion. Watch this vid the first pilot I think his name is Harold says –and though my English are not good- but Im pretty sure that he says at 0:48 that P-51 doesn’t turn at all!!!!!!!   Compare to this (the pilot –means a G series 109). As it concerns about spits Vs !09s though his has not a personal opinion his general attitude is that Spit Mk 5 maybe turns tighter than the 109G –maybe!!!- but not with the 109F. Anyway there are more interesting things in this Vid esp. when Skip Holmes coments about these tradiotional adversaries but the problem is that what they about turn rates are not what I see in THE GAME.

At the same vid at 3:20 skip makes some interesting remarks about FS programmers and real life but im not sure what his talking about I cannot understand him fully, and also at last section about Spit Vs 109 sustained turn rates but I missing the point which is better….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94&feature=related


But on the other hand in this well known vid (i mean most of you must have seen it) History CH. approx.  at 1:20 insist that pony (it is actually a B model that showing in the graphics) can turn harder than the 109!!! So Harold in the first vid speaks about the D model? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2kkwWFIeUY&feature=related

and so in this vid at 2:41

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cH_OV032mE&feature=related

But…wait, its getting better: In this vid History Ch. at 1:24 approx. says that FW190A8 can turn better than the Pony!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKq4uJ4I_7M&NR=1


so conclusion is that, and according to History Ch,. that pony outturns 109 but not the FW-190A8.
   
That’s why am so confused. I dare to say that I tend to believe that Harold and Skip comments are much more reliable than those on History Ch. which in turn (or in return?....) are kind off contradict to what is happening in the game.

Offline Strip

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 08:21:26 AM »
History Channel = Poor accuracy

IMHO Skip Holm sounds like he is transposing a lot of personal prefrence for the 109 into his performance evaluations.

Depending on the altitude and speed the P-51 can out turn some of the 109 variants.

In WW2 most American pilots had a G-Suit to help fatigue and blackout, perhaps overriding any performance advantage.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 08:23:45 AM by Strip »

Offline rip033

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 08:24:49 AM »
Umm yes that is right  :D
JaCkRiPr

Offline druski85

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 08:27:59 AM »
All I know is a smile slowly forms whenever a pony drags himself into a turn fight with my 109...  :D

Offline Shifty

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 08:43:39 AM »
All I know is a smile slowly forms whenever a pony drags himself into a turn fight with my 109...  :D

There's a few P-51 pilots out there that will quickly whipe that smile off your face. ;)

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Offline Strip

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 08:47:29 AM »
There's a few P-51 pilots out there that will quickly whipe that smile off your face. ;)


Steve and myself being one of them....

:aok

Speaking of which I need to find time to 1v1 with him or BatfinkV, life has had me way to busy lately.


Offline jdbecks

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 08:51:24 AM »
it also seems in real life pilots were not as agressive as we play in the game if you understand what Im trying to say  :confused:
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Offline Strip

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 08:58:56 AM »
I agree perfectly...

In Aces High a vast majority of the good pilots focus on killing the enemy over personal safety. In WW2 most pilots number one priority was getting out alive, understandably given the stakes.

I think this plays into game dynamics and how planes match up against each other. In WW2, and to some extent AH2, the most aggressive pilot usually won the engagement.

With both pilots being on a equal playing field anyway....


Offline druski85

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 09:42:35 AM »
There's a few P-51 pilots out there that will quickly whipe that smile off your face. ;)


Certainly true, but they are few and far between -- especially if I'm in me trusty F or G2 :D

Offline Vinkman

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 10:14:33 AM »
With Respect to the Bud Andersen encounter, I read his book and got to talk with his at Oshkosh in '96. He made a point of mentioning the use of flaps on P-51 to optimize turn rate in this encounter, especially in the initial turn fight where they walked around the wagon wheel on the 109s. He said the first 15deg of flaps would dramatically improve the turn radius of a Pony, and that his Mustang Squad mates surprised a lot of 109 drivers in turn fights. But of course no single event dog fight should be SOLEY used to define the performance advantages of any two plane types, it seems this often happens on the Hist channel where anecdotal evidence is used in the place of actual performance stats.

I think the point above about arena fighting vs real life is spot on. Perhaps the turn radius performance difference between these planes is smaller than other real life factors that probably had a bigger influence, like e-states, fuel quality, maintenance, pilot conditioning, mental states, and pilot talent.

It would be interesting to read or see material that Chronicles the dog fights of German pilots. It would probably be full of stories of Hot soup Mustang pilots who thought they had a better plain and tried to turn fight a 109 and became a flag painted on the side of Ralls 109, and hence ex toll the performance virtues of 109 over Mustangs.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 10:17:51 AM by Vinkman »
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Offline wrag

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2009, 12:23:43 PM »
There was an article in Flight Journal where 2 well known individuals tested a 109G10 against a P51D.

In the article they said both were surprised that the 109 OUT TURNED the P51!

Both said the ONLY thing the P51 had on the 109 was speed.

It is possible that many of the kills and fights reported by our pilots was against newer or less trained LW pilots and those that meant up with the good ones didn't RTB to tell their story.

A similar story of interest also in Flight Journal was about a 190A4 Or A5 against a F6F.

Again many were surprised at how well the 190 actually preformed against the F6F!

HTC was referred to BOTH articles.

IMHO too many SEEM to believe that most of the allied planes were better then the LW planes while they forget the NUMBERS imbalance that played a very large roll in the fighting of that time.

The names "Butcher Bird" for the 190 and the reference to "the Deadly 109" were not given lightly!

IMHO much of the stuff we see reported as true on the History Channel and such does a disservice to ALL the individuals that flew in combat during WWII!
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Offline Vinkman

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2009, 01:22:21 PM »
The real question then, is how acurate is HTC's flight data for the various models?
Maybe a question for HTC, if anyone there is reading this thread and cares to answer is, where do the performance stats come from?

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Offline BnZs

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2009, 01:42:41 PM »
In AHII, the P-51 is inferior in both rate and radius of turn to every model of 109. This is not debatable.

Was this true in real life? Highly debatable. Surely all the times P-51s managed to come out on top in Luftberrys with 109s it was not purely because Luftwaffe pilot did not know how to sucessfully perform the dauntingly complex Luftberry maneuver.  :rolleyes: I'm not saying that the max turn performance of the P-51 was nessecarily better than that of the 109s, the physics of the thing would seem to say otherwise, but I do think it looks like there was alot more parity than we have in the game.

In AHII, both P-51s are also out-turned by the all marks P-47, especially the D-11, and the Typhoon, which stands in stark contrast to what test pilots from the era have to say. Pilots who were no doubt at least as good and knew their planes as well as any pilot today.
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Offline Westy

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2009, 02:20:43 PM »
In AH people "fly" these modelled aircraft like they would bumper cars
at an amusement park. They're moving pixels on a computer screen -
not actually at the stick of a real aircraft.  Don't confuse main arena
"skill" or perceived performance with anything that happened in real life.  

If something you see or think happens in the MA that does not match up
with your expectations of what you believe should not happen in real life
the problem is your trying to think the MA is "real" and these planes are
being flown by real pilots in real WWII aircombat.

 The list of why the MA's are "la-la" land is endless.  But it includes how
players are able to take off, "fly", die, rinse, repeat, ad nauseum.  And
that the customer base is made up of extremely skilled "computer game
players" at one end of the spectrum and on the other there are "computer
game players" who can't muster enough skill to tie their own shoe strings.
 So just be aware that while there may be data errors the main thing you
need to realize is that even in the MA "fantasy world" environment that it
is ALWAYS the  computer game player (aka the "pilot") and not the "plane"
that are the reason you see things like a P-51 out maneuvering a Zero
and making a kill.  
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 02:30:58 PM by Westy »

Offline Karnak

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Re: Im confused
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2009, 03:57:54 PM »
In Aces High a vast majority of the good pilots focus on killing the enemy over personal safety. In WW2 most pilots number one priority was getting out alive, understandably given the stakes.
I don't really agree with this.  In my reading many of the pilots put a higher value on their mission, their comrades and defending their countries than they did on their personal survival.  There are many acts I can describe that would not have happened if personal survival had been the pilot's #1 priority.
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