Author Topic: Cap and Ball  (Read 1313 times)

Offline mtnman

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2009, 11:33:54 AM »

There's stories of the .44 Army knocking down bears in the West...


Must have been a l'il one :)  I've seen video of Inuit people killing polar bears with pistols loaded with .22LR rounds, so I don't doubt it's possible.  I'd like to hear of those folks who tried it, but didn't find it to be adequate.  Maybe they didn't make it back to spread the tale?  Even in historical times, there were more black bears out west than grizzlies, and black bears aren't that much toughter than whitetail deer to kill.  As for grizzlies, Lewis and Clark found them to be much more formidable, requiring multiple shots, as well as multiple shots in the head with their rifles and muskets which were much more powerful than the revolvers.  Lewis stated in his journal that he'd rather fight two indians than one grizzly :lol

They're fun to shoot- I could see one for targets or re-enactments.  And I think if you got really close, you could take a small deer with a .44 pistol, simply because you could (hopefully) hit it several times.

At best, the revolvers are limited to a small powder charge due to the length of the chambers.  I think I could max mine (.44 Army) out with about 37gr of powder?  Even a Walker is limited to a max of maybe 50gr?  The .36 won't even hold 30gr.  They can't be loaded heavier, because the ball sticks out of the chamber and the cylinder won't rotate.

With a full powder charge and a round ball, the .36 is limited to about 200 ft. lb. of energy- which is about equal to a .22LR.  Loaded with a larger conical, the velocity drops about 40%, and the ft. lbs. drop to about 150.  Not hunting-class for much beyond rabbits, squirrels, and occasional bad-guys.  A .22 is generally not considered adequate for fox or coyote unless you're up-close and personal, and can carefully place a shot (animal in a trap).

The .44 is better.  A full charge with a round ball gives about 375 ft lbs (at the muzzle).  Compared to a .22 Magnum with a muzzle energy of around 360 ft lbs, that's better, but still not very powerful.  I know people that have used them (.44's) for javalina and coyote, but they're illegal for deer in any state because of the low energy they develop.

They probably develop ME close to some of the little auto-pistols, which are considered adequate for shooting paper and people.  Compared to a .357Mag, at 500-700 ft lb ME, and a .44Mag at over 900 Ft lbs at the muzzle (about half the ME my muzzle-loading rifle) they're not very powerful.

They're great for plinking, with lots of smoke, flames, and noise!  Fun for sure, just not very powerful.  And I'm sure bad guys would be impressed too, if you had time to load it!  The first time I fired my .44 Army it was at an indoor range, in a booth next to 3 gang-banger types taking turns firing one of those l'il auto pistols.  The looks they gave me said they were impressed, lol!

I admit to being biased, of course.  Those cap and ball revolvers are just a little too modern/high-tech for me.  I'll take the easier to load and clean, more powerful, more accurate, single-shot flintlock pistol any day!

MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Saxman

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2009, 12:05:36 PM »
Incidentally, the Walker had power roughly equivalent to the .357Mag. Powder charge went up to 60 grain.

Video is awful, but killer audio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2N6FoKB4a0
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 12:23:54 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2009, 12:29:41 PM »
Mtnman...I'll take a Colt Walker or Dragoon in .44 cal over that stone age flint lock any day of the week. I've fired replica models of all 3 and that flintlock has the same accuracy as a sawed off .410 shotgun shooting slugs...scary as hell to fire too. The Remington 1858 in in .44 cal with multiple cylinders is quite a nice weapon. If the originals were as sturdy as the replicas I'm surprised the Colts were as popular. All of the revolvers are very accurate within their effective ranges but a good shooter can do pretty well at longer ranges if he knows how to "fudge" the loads.



Of course a good shooter can make almost any gun perform with some practice.
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Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline Saxman

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2009, 12:46:52 PM »
I have to agree with gyrene on accuracy. That's a beautiful pistol but most of those flints were smoothbore, while the cap and ball revolvers have enough rifling to stabilize the round. Nothing like a full-length rifle, but much better than the smoothbore flints could do. I think the one exception was the Kentucky pistols, which may have been rifled (I'd LOVE a matched set Kentucky longrifle and pistol).
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline ariansworld

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2009, 01:08:48 PM »
I ended up getting the .36 cal version.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2009, 01:33:24 PM »
(I'd LOVE a matched set Kentucky longrifle and pistol).
I hear ya...nothing like having a matched set in your gun cabinet.

Dixie Gun Works

Of course you could build your own using TC Hawken kits.



Brother in law bought a muzzle loading "hunting rifle" complete with camo pistol grip stock and scope...I told him he should have gone the distance with a real muzzle loader instead.

I'm more of a revolver and repeating rifle man myself...give me a Colt Single Action Army and a Henry lever action in .45 LC and...WOOOHOOO!!!
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 01:40:10 PM by gyrene81 »
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline RipChord929

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2009, 01:40:54 PM »
(Thinkin like a Missoura Bushwhacker ;) )  If had had to live or die by cap and ball pistol, I'd carry several!!!
Probably 2 x .44armys, and 2 x .36navy shorties, and a .44 derringer... At pistol ranges, 60-80ft or so, they work just fine power wise.. They'll give a nasty wound from the soft lead, and the slug will stay in ya... Smash bone too!!!  
Different syle of shootin, loose but smooth.. Let the pistol roll up to verticle as you recock it, so the loose cap can fall out, and drop the frontsight onto the target as you squeeze off the next shot!!!
When cocked, a notch in the hammer is the rearsight, but it is only a rough sight, your frontsight is most important!!!  Lot of practice and "feel" involved with those oldstyle revolvers... Lots of fun tho!!

Better learn to shoot with both hands, ya just know, that .36 will want a mate!!!  Crossdraw??

Stay safe, have fun!!


RC
"Well Cmdr Eddington, looks like we have ourselves a war..."
"Yeah, a gut bustin, mother lovin, NAVY war!!!"

Offline mtnman

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2009, 03:33:34 PM »
I ended up getting the .36 cal version.

Awesome!  Gonna get a chance to shoot it soon? 

They really are fun!
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline ariansworld

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2009, 06:16:02 PM »
Where is a good place to get lead in bulk and some moulds?   I have an OLD laddle that was used to melt lead for this reason.

Offline Treize69

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2009, 06:35:12 PM »
I dunno about the bulk lead, but Cabelas and Dixie Gun Works both sell molds in both round ball and conical bullet for the .36 Navy. Or at least they did the last time I checked.

www.cabelas.com

www.dixiegun.com
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2009, 07:11:06 PM »
Bulk lead is a chore to get a hold of in my experiences, but it might just be because this is California.  Lead is very hazardous, yada yada.  I can't in all honesty recommend this, but typicaly I find some cheap lead balls (or shot) of any calliber, then melt them down and pour it into my desired mold.  Just make sure you make your bullets outside or in some really well ventilated area and that if your melting down something other than pure bulk lead that it is made out of pure lead (which is why I like melting down extra/leftover lead shot, it's as pure lead as anything else).
-Babalon
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2009, 07:46:48 PM »
Where is a good place to get lead in bulk and some moulds?   I have an OLD laddle that was used to melt lead for this reason.

Dixie Gun Works and Track of the Wolf both carry moulds.  Probably lead too, but it'll cost you dearly to ship it.  It's heavy.  Almost like lead, lol!

I get a lot of lead from friends who do home refurbishing.  Old lead pipes, and especially lead flashing from roofs.  Lead wheel weights, decoy anchors, dive-belt weights, etc...

If you're using it for black powder firearms, it's extremely important that it be pure lead.  Tin and antimony are often mixed with lead, and you'll find it in lots of scrap lead (I've found it in old automotive wheel-balancing weights).  The good news is that when you melt the lead, the impurities will float to the surface, and you can carefully skim them off.

Lead projectiles for black powder firearms need to be soft enough to scratch/dent with your thumbnail.  It the lead is harder than that, it isn't pure enough.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline RipChord929

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2009, 07:49:38 PM »
Tire shops, and Auto recyclers, anywhere they dismount auto tires.. Get the used wheelweights..
Lead a plenty!!!
"Well Cmdr Eddington, looks like we have ourselves a war..."
"Yeah, a gut bustin, mother lovin, NAVY war!!!"

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2009, 08:04:41 PM »
A flight simulator forum is definiately the place I'd look for advice on this so good call there.  That said I'd choose the .44.

Ive been shooting black powder my whole life. I say go with the .36. Correct me if Im wrong but i think that was the issued caliber for the Navy Colt. The Army got the .44 gun right?
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline go4maw

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Re: Cap and Ball
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2009, 08:09:33 PM »
Sax, I think those were Remingtons used by the Union Inf Officers.. Open top Colts couldn't swap Cyls without removing the barrel assy...

Hes right  I own  the Rem  Outstanding  piece

Watch Josey Whales  and you will see he change the Rem in the last  fight