What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?

[BigPlay]

Ferrari, no, not at a factory level, but you're being silly if you think Porsche doesn't spend quite a bit of time and effort on ALMS/FIA GT and supporting national club racing both here and abroad. They offer factory built race cars in various configurations depending on series and as far as ALMS/ELMS/Le Mans goes they went to the trouble of building the RS Spyer got LMP2 (and I'd bet my paycheck each one was sold at a loss wrt the R&D and manufacturing costs), so... yeh, I'd say there is some factory interest/involvement there.

I didn't say that they focus on that level of racing. Street cars modified into race cars to me doesn't indicate total factory devotion to that area of racing. Interested and total all out devotion like they did in the 70's, 80's and 90's with it's complete resources are completely different. If Ferrari found another way to fund it's F-1 costs they would dump building cars for the public in a heartbeat. Although I don't believe Porsche is as devoted to racing first anymore they aren't going to dump huge resources into ALMS like they would into Le Mans. I also doubt that many of their R&D ever made much if any money in racing. I would believe it was more for bragging rights then anything else. Ferrari's R&D goes straight into their racing and the street car is merely a byproduct of that R&D.

[BigPlay]

Yep, pulling on race wins from 20, 30 and almost 40 years ago has a lot to do with racing today. 

The 917 was a remarkable car, no doubt. As was the 962. I'm just trying to figure out what that has to do with the 911 and the Vette in GT2 today.

Oh yeh. Nothing.

Last Le Mans win was 1998, you need another math course. My statement was to indicate (as I posted) was that when Porsche focused on the prize that they got it in spades. They dominated the Le Mans and the Can Am circut for years with impunity having the rules changed in both types of racing because of their dominance. My point was that Porsche didn't set out to out to beat US sport cars it was the other way around. The 2 companies have completely different philosophies as to what a sports car should be. But when racing is mentioned the US really never was able to compete on the level that say the Ferrari's and the Porsche's were. My response was made in regards to Porsche being donut wupped on what I consider to be a type of racing that they really don't and haven't put their true dovotion into to and that if they did, (since they do have scoreboard) they could.

[Reaper90]

This should sum it up. There are different cars for different people and no 1 car meets all the criteria that all people want. Many say the ZR1 has it all over the competition but there is more to owning a car then performance and cost alone. All of these cars have something to offer over the other. To me owning a Corvette even the ZR1 doesn't do it. I doubt that anyone of us would ever get to use all of what any of these cars have to offer  performance wise so from that aspect performance on this level is rather mute. They were all very close on all of the trials that were performed on the test track. I don't think there was 2 seconds difference on lap times within the group. For me if I was going to get my dream car. I would need something to remind me daily that this in fact is my dream car. I don't want to see it rolling down the street everyday right next to me and that's one reason I would not pick the Corvette. But as stated.... everyone has different criterias for owning a car.

Agreed. To each his own. The Vette doesn't do it for you. Likewise, I find the 911 series uninspiring, an anachronism living off its reputation. As long as you're happy, and I'm happy, we're all happy!  

[Reaper90]

Last Le Mans win was 1998, you need another math course.

no, my math is fine. My point was that other than a few years in the late '90's, most all of Porsche's dominance in racing was in the mid '80's and earlier back to 1970. And I was also referring specifically to the pic of the 917, which won it's last Le Mans in 1971.

My statement was to indicate (as I posted) was that when Porsche focused on the prize that they got it in spades. They dominated the Le Mans and the Can Am circut for years with impunity having the rules changed in both types of racing because of their dominance.

Still haven't figured out what any of that has to do with Porsche and Corvette today. Basically you're saying "it doesn't matter if Corvette whoops up on Porsche head-to-head in any form of racing today, if Porsche wanted to they could beat 'em, they just don't care" ?

My point was that Porsche didn't set out to out to beat US sport cars it was the other way around. The 2 companies have completely different philosophies as to what a sports car should be. But when racing is mentioned the US really never was able to compete on the level that say the Ferrari's and the Porsche's were.

Emphasis added mine

Ahhh.. I see what you're trying to say. Too bad it's completely wrong. Ford proved that when we want to, we can school the best Europe has to Offer. GM proved that in their class with the C5R and C6R in GT1. You fail to realize that GM didn't partake of international road racing (le Mans) at a corporate level in the 60's thru the late '70's due to a self-imposed ban on direct factory involvement. Zora Arkus-Duntov secretly built a few factory race cars, the original Grand Sport Corvettes, and laid a major beat-down on the Shelby Cobras until GM brass found out about them and ordered the cars disposed of. Penske wound up with them even though they were supposed to be destroyed. They just WOULD NOT put together any sort of factory effort. The closest Corvettes ever came were privateer teams in '69 and the early '70's, but they just didn't have the deep pockets.

And why would GM worry about sports car racing in the '60's and '70's? I mean, as far as racing and the major American manufacturers go, the entire racing world has been here, turning left all Sunday afternoon on asphault ovals. None of the American manufacturers really cared to contest Le Mans. Ford showed they could, and they have never cared wnough to go back. GM decided to in the late '90's, and ran off every bit of the competition.

Don't fool yourself and think that just because they (GM, Ford, etc) didn't then that they couldn't have if there had been ample motivation.

[Reaper90]

I didn't say that they focus on that level of racing. Street cars modified into race cars to me doesn't indicate total factory devotion to that area of racing.

My point is that "total factory devotion" is not what I'm arguing about and is secondary to the discussion. Specifically, I'm talking about cars racing that are very similar to what you or I might drive, not some open cockpit 1100 hp prototype that shares absolutely nothing in common but a name with a street car you can buy.

Although I don't believe Porsche is as devoted to racing first anymore they aren't going to dump huge resources into ALMS like they would into Le Mans.

You do realize that the rules sets for the ALMS classes and the Le Mans classes are virtually identical, don't you? For all practical purposes, ALMS = Le Mans.

[CAP1]

a link to the chewer of all things european, circa 1966. proof positive that should an american car company choose, they not only can, but WILL chew the euro cars into leeeetle teeny eeeni pieces.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GT40




and in the rain too........



so, really, it's not a case of porsche choosing not to compete on such a low level. most probably there is some "backdoor" sponsorships for some of the porsche teams as it is.(they'll never admit to it though)

but rather it is that ford and chevy both know that they have nothing to prove, so why should they waste the money?> they've both already proven that they can take the titles at will. 

[Die Hard]

To be fair to the euros the Ford GT40 was designed by Lola, a UK racing car maker, and built at the Lola factory in Bromley. The engine was American though.

[BigPlay]

a link to the chewer of all things european, circa 1966. proof positive that should an american car company choose, they not only can, but WILL chew the euro cars into leeeetle teeny eeeni pieces.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GT40


(Image removed from quote.)

and in the rain too........

(Image removed from quote.)

so, really, it's not a case of Porsche choosing not to compete on such a low level. most probably there is some "backdoor" sponsorships for some of the Porsche teams as it is.(they'll never admit to it though)

but rather it is that ford and Chevy both know that they have nothing to prove, so why should they waste the money?> they've both already proven that they can take the titles at will. 

Cap, these cars all won at the time Porsche was just cutting it's teeth in racing. The GT40 was produced to beat Ferrari's that were domainante at the time and all because Enzo backed out of selling the company to Ford. After 1969 there was no American winner at Le Mans to date. Ford and Chevey like Ferrari and Porsche chose to put their resources into different areas of racing. As far as endurance racing is concerned nothing US built ever was able to compete, not at Le Mans, Sebring nor 24 Hours at Nürburgring where Porsche won the last 4 years. I believe there are US built cars racing there as well. Now Europe was and imo still is the apex of auto racing not NASCAR, IRL nor American Le Mans series. The American Le Mans series doesn't have the worlds attention as do the big races in Europe so trying to compair these races to those is ridiculous.The constant reference to the Corvette beating the pants off of Porsche and Ferrari in racing is a rather small minded comment. I suppose that if GM of Ford wanted to compete in F1 they would domainate there as well.
Corvette is domainate in a very limited type racing that now many people that they are the kings of the racing world not to mention the streets of the world.

[jdbecks]

Do the new Corvette's still use leaf spring suspension?

[REVRAND]

I do not believe so JD.......

[Reaper90]

Do the new Corvette's still use leaf spring suspension?

The Corvettes still use a traverse composite monospring, so in one way the answer is yes, but it is neither steel nor is it composed of a "leaf" structure, and has not been so since 1981.

Why still use this setup? Space. It is extremely compact from a packaging standpoint, and just as effective as a coil spring.

[edog1977]

The Corvettes still use a traverse composite monospring, so in one way the answer is yes, but it is neither steel nor is it composed of a "leaf" structure, and has not been so since 1981.

Why still use this setup? Space. It is extremely compact from a packaging standpoint, and just as effective as a coil spring.

To go one step further, I believe Formula One cars use torsion bars instead of coil springs.  For the same reason you mention, packaging.

Edit: Just trying to make the point that what may be considered archaic technology by some, can be regarded by others as superior for a given application by others.

[Die Hard]

The technology may be archaic, but that doesn't mean it can't have a modern application. Last time I checked the wheel was exactly new.

[Reaper90]

Cap, these cars all won at the time Porsche was just cutting it's teeth in racing. The GT40 was produced to beat Ferrari's that were domainante at the time and all because Enzo backed out of selling the company to Ford.

And he mentioned the GT40's because you said American car companies couldn't compete against Europe in sports car racing........ his point stands.

After 1969 there was no American winner at Le Mans to date. Ford and Chevey like Ferrari and Porsche chose to put their resources into different areas of racing.

Bingo. You said it yourself.. it's because they didn't, not because they couldn't....

As far as endurance racing is concerned nothing US built ever was able to compete, not at Le Mans, Sebring nor 24 Hours at Nürburgring where Porsche won the last 4 years.

Put.the.crack.pipe.down.

"As far as endurance racing is concerned nothing US built ever was able to compete, not at Le Mans, Sebring "

???

GT40? Multiple class victories by Corvette and Viper?

24 Hours at Nürburgring where Porsche won the last 4 years. I believe there are US built cars racing there as well.

Are you putting the 24 hrs at the Ring on the same level as Le Mans and Sebring? An even open to club racers and amateurs? Has a factory effort of any kind ever competed there? Really?

And you discount US-based pro-racing and national level SCCA racing in the US? OMG.

Now Europe was and imo still is the apex of auto racing not NASCAR, IRL nor American Le Mans series.

I don't argue that as a sports car racing enthusiast, but I would suggest that all of the crowd attention and $$$ of ALL European-based series outside of F1 (including Le Mans, ELMS, FIA GT, etc) all rolled together can't touch NASCAR's popularity, $$$, and viewership. And that KILLS me to say that because trust me friend, I'd rather watch wrestling or poke needles under my fingernails than watch NASCAR. But facts are, after F1, that's where the money is right now, and that's how its been for the last 20+ years. HUGE money, and that's what draws GM, Ford, Dodge, and now Toyota.

And you're still missing the point that, although all the races are in N America, the ALMS is still equivalent to Le Mans. ALL the major teams that run Le Mans are at Sebring and the Petit, and a larger percentage than not of the 24 Hours of Le Mans class winners across the board in recent years have been ALMS teams or European-based teams who compete in most if not all of the ALMS races. Joest Audi, AudiSport NA, Corvette GT1, Oreca Viper team (Late '90's - early 2000's), Flying Lizards Porsche, to name a few. The ALMS teams are well represented.

The American Le Mans series doesn't have the worlds attention as do the big races in Europe so trying to compair these races to those is ridiculous.

No, they're watching FIA GT, ELMS, etc. All series that ALMS is every bit as good as. To discount the excellence of ALMS competitiors just because they're not in Europe and not being watched on the "telly" by the Europeans is extremely silly and ignorant. Like I've already said... the event results from the 24 Hrs of Le Mans show the ALMS has more than its fair share of talent, regardless of whether the races are broadcast overseas.

The constant reference to the Corvette beating the pants off of Porsche and Ferrari in racing is a rather small minded comment.

Playboy Cup
Escort Endurance Series
World Challenge
ALMS

You know what is small minded? Someone who discounts Corvette because they don't have a dozen overall 24 Hours wins from 11-40 years ago in prototypes (cars that mean nearly nothing when you compare them to what you and I can buy off the dealership lot), when the vast majority of times that Corvettes have actually faced Porsches on the track, in the same class, on equal footing, Corvettes have frequently and regularly prevailed.

I suppose that if GM of Ford wanted to compete in F1 they would domainate there as well.

If they wanted to, probably. I seem to remeber F1 was dominated for years by a lot of cars powered by Ford Cosworth V8's.....

Corvette is domainate in a very limited type racing that now many people that they are the kings of the racing world not to mention the streets of the world.

en Englese, por favor??  

Never said they were the kings of the racing world, only that more often than not, when they have actually raced against Europe's finest, they have won. That's all.

[edog1977]

The technology may be archaic, but that doesn't mean it can't have a modern application. Last time I checked the wheel was exactly new.

True.  Probably should have used the word inferior instead.