Author Topic: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?  (Read 48500 times)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #435 on: September 08, 2009, 10:04:10 PM »
So, using that logic, all automobiles air conditioning systems are American, as Packard Motor Car was the first automobile manufacturer to incorporate the technology in 1939.  Thus making all cars "international".

Sometimes an existing design is simply used as a guide of the things not to do in a new design.  The Daytona Coupe was a new design.  The things not done, were a result of what was learned from the AC Cobra.

Obviously the ball stops somewhere, but the AC Cobra was still an AC product.

#Like many British specialist manufacturers, AC Cars had been using the smooth, refined Bristol straight-6 engine in its small-volume production, including its AC Ace 2-seater roadster. This had a hand built body with a steel tube frame, and aluminium body panels that were made using English wheeling machines. The engine was a pre-World War II design of BMW which by the 1960s was considered dated.

Bristol decided in 1961 to cease production of its engine and instead to use Chrysler 313cid (5.1 L) V8 engines. Although untrue, it is commonly believed that AC was left without a future source of power and that American ex-racing driver Carroll Shelby saved the company from bankruptcy.

AC started using the 2.6 litre Ford Zephyr engine in its cars. In September 1961, Shelby airmailed AC a letter asking them if they would build him a car modified to accept a V8 engine. AC agreed, provided a suitable engine could be found. He first went to Chevrolet to see if they would provide him with engines, but not wanting to add competition to the Corvette they said no.

Ford however, wanted a car that could compete with the Corvette and they happened to have a brand new thin-wall small-block engine which could be used in this endeavor. It was Ford's 260 in³ HiPo (4.2 L) engine - a new lightweight, thin-wall cast small-block V8 tuned for high performance. In January 1962 mechanics at AC Cars in Thames Ditton, Surrey fitted the prototype chassis CSX0001 with a 221ci Ford V8. After testing and modification, the engine and transmission were removed and the chassis was air-freighted to Shelby in Los Angeles on 2 February 1962.[1] His team fitted it with an engine and transmission in less than eight hours and began road-testing.

Production proved to be easy, since AC had already made most of the modifications needed for the small-block V8 when they installed the 2.6 litre Ford Zephyr engine, including the extensive rework of the AC Ace's front end. The most important modification was the fitting of a stronger rear differential to handle the increased engine power. A Salisbury 4HU unit with inboard disk brakes to reduce unsprung weight was chosen instead of the old ENV unit. It was the same unit used on the Jaguar E-Type. On the production version, the inboard brakes were moved outboard to reduce cost. The only modification of the front end of the first Cobra from that of the AC Ace 2.6 was the steering box, which had to be moved outward to clear the wider V8 motor.
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The first 75 Cobra Mark I (including the prototype) were fitted with the 260 engine (4.2 L). The remaining 51 Mark I model were fitted with a larger version of the Windsor Ford engine, the 289 in³ (4.7 L) V8."
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #436 on: September 08, 2009, 10:06:58 PM »
Hmmm...  The pushrod LS1 motor in my 12 year old firebird takes up less space than the 4.6L dual overhead cam mustang motor, puts out more horsepower and torque over a wider power band, and gets better mileage.  It's more durable and can be modified to put out sick horsepower much easier and cheaper than the DOHC mustang motor.

And what makes you think the 4.6 Mustang engine is technologically modern? The Rolls-Royce Merlin was a DOHC engine.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 10:15:50 PM by Die Hard »
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #437 on: September 08, 2009, 10:27:09 PM »
The Daytona Coupe was a new design.

hardly a new design - they just rebodied the existing cobra for better aero and added an oil cooler to the diff iirc.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #438 on: September 09, 2009, 12:04:14 AM »
Really? Computer controlled fuel injection and valve timing has been around since the 30s. That's news to me!

not computer controled.......but fi has been. never said vtec was.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #439 on: September 09, 2009, 12:07:11 AM »
Exactly! Welcome to my world CAP :)

Btw. Honda has never had a warranty claim for a failed VTech engine. And they've built millions of them.

funny......you wanna see the invoice from the cylinder head i just had to do? and the new vtec solenoid?

 when i called honda about it, they were clueless. they thought that i was nuts.

the thing is.....at 90k, the dealers aren;t gonna see these. people bring em to the guys that know what they're doing as soon as they're out of warranty.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #440 on: September 09, 2009, 12:10:57 AM »
Hmmm...  The pushrod LS1 motor in my 12 year old firebird takes up less space than the 4.6L dual overhead cam mustang motor, puts out more horsepower and torque over a wider power band, and gets better mileage.  It's more durable and can be modified to put out sick horsepower much easier and cheaper than the DOHC mustang motor.

New isn't always better...  The "archiac" and "inferior" pushrod LS series motors are simply better than the overhead cam ford motors for a large variety of applications.  They have larger displacement in a smaller package, get the same or better fuel economy, are more reliable/durable, can still be worked on by true garage mechanics, and are easier/cheaper to modify.  It's simply no contest.  It took almost 8 years after the introduction of the overhead cam mustang engine before ANY factory mustang, including the cobras, could even come close to beating my firebird.


you were right till the "more durable" part.

it's actually easier to get power from a 4.6 ford.....and you can build them to over 700hp on the stock block,

they're not "V" engines. they're "Y" blocks. crossbolted mains make em very very strong.
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Offline Bronk

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #441 on: September 09, 2009, 04:20:05 AM »
Pushrod and classic OHC are both obsolete technologies. I'm talking computer controlled variable-timed valves with hydraulic lifters. Some would say that those aren't even "modern" anymore since the japs and euros have been using them since the early 90s. Honda V-Tech, BMW Vanos etc.

1st V-tech engines are OHC
2nd VVT technology doesn't mean MORE horsepower.
3rd VVT helps produce a flat torque curve.

VVT
torque curve,



Non vvt torque curve.


VVT doesn't magically change max lift and max duration. Which would be needed to make MORE power.

The ability to make more hp/torque is dependent on cramming  more air/fuel in a given area.

What has more area to cram air/fuel, 2Ltr or 6ltr? You just cant change the laws of physics.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 04:26:53 AM by Bronk »
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #442 on: September 09, 2009, 05:39:23 AM »
And revs... which you conveniently forgot to mention.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #443 on: September 09, 2009, 05:46:40 AM »
Really? Computer controlled fuel injection and valve timing has been around since the 30s. That's news to me!

No one mentioned "Computer controlled", just yourself.   But yes, FI has been around since the 30's.  Instead of Electronic FI, they were Electric.   I don't have to mention the Fuel Injected Wright R-3350, the Daimler-Benz DB 603, the BMW 801 and the Shvetsov ASh-82FN, do I?

IIRC, the first Electronic FI mass produced was offered by AMC (of all companies).  

Valve timing has been around the longest.   Lobing a camshaft is difficult.   :uhoh
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 07:53:21 AM by Masherbrum »
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #444 on: September 09, 2009, 05:48:56 AM »
funny......you wanna see the invoice from the cylinder head i just had to do? and the new vtec solenoid?

 when i called honda about it, they were clueless. they thought that i was nuts.

the thing is.....at 90k, the dealers aren't gonna see these. people bring em to the guys that know what they're doing as soon as they're out of warranty.

Yep. 
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #445 on: September 09, 2009, 06:09:44 AM »
hardly a new design - they just rebodied the existing cobra for better aero and added an oil cooler to the diff iirc.

The underpinnings had already been replaced in order to shoe in the big block 427.  The body of the Daytona Coupe did not share any external panels with the original AC Cobra.  The body pan was replaced to allow the new body to fit.  One only has to look at the rear of the two cars to know there were drastic design changes made from the ground up.

Die Hard, yes, the AC Cobra was a modified Bristol body with different underpinnings, for the AC Cobra 427.  I have never argued the AC Cobra was not of "international" design.  The Daytona Coupes are a different animal.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 06:12:21 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #446 on: September 09, 2009, 06:12:33 AM »
The underpinnings had already been replaced in order to shoe in the big block 427.  The body of the Daytona Coupe did not share any external panels with the original AC Cobra.  The body pan was replaced to allow the new body to fit.  One only has to look at the rear of the two cars to know there were drastic design changes made from the ground up.

Die Hard, yes, the AC Cobra was a modified Bristol body with different underpinnings, for the AC Cobra 427.

Correct. 
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #447 on: September 09, 2009, 06:16:01 AM »
No one mentioned "Computer controlled", just yourself.  

Yes, and since I'm the one who made the claim I get to define its meaning. Are you seriously arguing that an engine with new technology isn't better than an engine with old technology if all other factors are equal (displacement, forced induction etc.)?
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #448 on: September 09, 2009, 06:19:57 AM »
Die Hard, yes, the AC Cobra was a modified Bristol body with different underpinnings, for the AC Cobra 427.  I have never argued the AC Cobra was not of "international" design.  The Daytona Coupes are a different animal.

Well, this is the post I responded to:



but you know that they';re gonna argue that the cobra is an english car, right/?

It's the Cobra that's in question.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #449 on: September 09, 2009, 06:22:04 AM »
Yes, and since I'm the one who made the claim I get to define its meaning. Are you seriously arguing that an engine with new technology isn't better than an engine with old technology if all other factors are equal (displacement, forced induction etc.)?

No, again, you're taking "Valve Timing" and throwing it back trying to say "Variable Valve Timing", or "Fuel Injection" and throwing it back as "Electronic Fuel Injection".  

Personally, give me an old car any day of the week.   Actually, CAP1 gave the list, you get to "define" zilch.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 06:24:17 AM by Masherbrum »
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