109 k-4

[Getback]

If you mean by dumping ammo...
I find that in any match up, the small amount of weight lost is really insignificant compared to the angles you and your opponent choose.

No, I meant trimming the plane. I can never get enough ammo.

Addendum: I looked to see how many I killed. It was 3. One was a 2 vs 1 with the K4 being the one. It was a tough kill even with 2 on him.

[moot]

There are a few planes where the ammo is significant.  The N1K and 152 are two examples..  The N1K can afford to lose 300 lbs easily.. The 152 also has enough ammo that if you're going to need every inch and 1/10th of a second for e.g. a plane about to bounce you, dumping down to ~100x20/50x30 rounds is worth it.  But the K4 is punchy enough and has only 65 rounds of 30mm, so that it's not worth dumping anything.  The MG131 doesn't make any significant difference.

[VonMessa]

Keep in mind that although the F4U can sustain a smaller radius, the 109 K4 can sustain a faster rate of turn than the non-4 hog.. The Kurt does not have to entirely "b&z" the hog.

Throttle control (using the wicked torque of the K-4)

One of the most deadly and least used details of mastering the Kurfurst

[Saurdaukar]

It's been a while since I got some stick time in a K-4 but here's what I'd do against an F4U (or any other turner). I start by making B&Z passes, but I don't actually intend to get a gun solution. A high energy turner is far too difficult to hit. I only B&Z him to make him expend energy in evading, and I make sure I break off in time to be out of guns range when he turns back into me. I will repeat these fake attacks until he's on the deck, slow and helpless before making the kill pass.

This assumes that the K4 enters the fight with an advantage.  The K4 would be in just as much trouble if the positions were reversed - with consideration given to the K4's ability to regain E faster than the non-4 Hog's.

Using the K4 as a "B&Z" plane is a faulty use, IMO.  Just the same, considering the F4U a "turner" is equally faulty.  The Corsair can outdive and out zoom the K4 with relative ease due to weight and wing design.  

The K4 is a horrible diver and its advantage in ROC vs the F4U - in actual use as opposed to on paper - is only at lower speeds due to the aforementioned zoom ability of the Corsair, which is not measured.  

In other words, both aircraft being at 400 knots, I wouldnt try climbing away from an F4U because it would follow just fine.  However, at 200 knots, a spiral climb is a fine play and - even then - you run the risk of the F4U gaining a flaps-fueled gun solution, anyway, as Agent pointed out.

Regardless, the two big advantages that the K4 has over much of the plane set are both found at low speeds; the ability to take a low-speed fight into the vertical and the ability to accelerate very quickly.  

At high speeds, the K4's only advantage is the actual indicated/true air speed, itself.  The airframe does not handle high speed well and the weapons might as well be on 'Safe' because youre not hiting anything thats not AFK with a tater at 400MPH.

With that in mind, against the F4U, you simply avoid his strengths and exploit his weaknesses.  That means forcing the fight low and slow, and then taking it vertical.  While the Corsair may hang on with flaps, the K4's ability to bring the nose back down in this situation, with engine torque (or lack thereof on the opposite direction), is the key to a quick victory.

If the fight is at altitude and the K4 can not convert to a guns solution quickly, the Corsair is very capable of holding E in the opposite manner precribed above.  It will outdive the K4 and, as previously mentioned, will then proceed to outzoom the K4 (if the K4 doesnt compress and lawn dart) - reversing any advantage previously held.  

Point is - I wouldnt be so quick to discount the Corsair as unable to contend with a K4.  Im pretty far from a top-tier 109 driver - hell I suck compared to most - but there are more than a few F4U sticks that give me fits.  Dogg and Vudak come to mind, for example.

[BnZs]

"Weight" in and of itself is not an advantage in the vertical. There was an interesting discussion on this awhile back.

Anway, an interesting experiment is to take the different planes in the set, dive to 400mph, and then hold them in a max zoom climb. You'll be surprised
how little difference in max zooms there is.

This assumes that the K4 enters the fight with an advantage.  The K4 would be in just as much trouble if the positions were reversed - with consideration given to the K4's ability to regain E faster than the non-4 Hog's.

Using the K4 as a "B&Z" plane is a faulty use, IMO.  Just the same, considering the F4U a "turner" is equally faulty.  The Corsair can outdive and out zoom the K4 with relative ease due to weight and wing design.  

The K4 is a horrible diver and its advantage in ROC vs the F4U - in actual use as opposed to on paper - is only at lower speeds due to the aforementioned zoom ability of the Corsair, which is not measured.  

In other words, both aircraft being at 400 knots, I wouldnt try climbing away from an F4U because it would follow just fine.  However, at 200 knots, a spiral climb is a fine play and - even then - you run the risk of the F4U gaining a flaps-fueled gun solution, anyway, as Agent pointed out.

Regardless, the two big advantages that the K4 has over much of the plane set are both found at low speeds; the ability to take a low-speed fight into the vertical and the ability to accelerate very quickly.  

At high speeds, the K4's only advantage is the actual indicated/true air speed, itself.  The airframe does not handle high speed well and the weapons might as well be on 'Safe' because youre not hiting anything thats not AFK with a tater at 400MPH.

With that in mind, against the F4U, you simply avoid his strengths and exploit his weaknesses.  That means forcing the fight low and slow, and then taking it vertical.  While the Corsair may hang on with flaps, the K4's ability to bring the nose back down in this situation, with engine torque (or lack thereof on the opposite direction), is the key to a quick victory.

If the fight is at altitude and the K4 can not convert to a guns solution quickly, the Corsair is very capable of holding E in the opposite manner precribed above.  It will outdive the K4 and, as previously mentioned, will then proceed to outzoom the K4 (if the K4 doesnt compress and lawn dart) - reversing any advantage previously held.  

[Jappa52]

I'm surprised I don't see 5 of these for every other plane up.

65 rounds... is no spray and pray with this bird. I believe that this is the main reason why people stay away from the K and that suits me just fine. This is probably my favorite bird to fly in the game but because I really need steady stick time (which I haven't had lately) to be accurate with the 108 I find myself staying out of it.

[Die Hard]

This assumes that the K4 enters the fight with an advantage.  The K4 would be in just as much trouble if the positions were reversed - with consideration given to the K4's ability to regain E faster than the non-4 Hog's.

The K-4 will have the advantage unless the F4U brings a lot more energy into the fight. As I said earlier:

Co-alt, co-E the K-4 still has the advantage since it can build E much more quickly than the Hog-1. After the merge the 109 slowly pulls up into a zoom climb and starts building E on the Hog. There is little or nothing the Hog can do to prevent the 109 from gaining the advantage. The 109 is faster, climbs better and accelerates faster; it is really not a fair match at all.

Even if the Hog starts at a position of a marginal advantage it is fairly easy and reasonably safe for an experienced K-4 driver to equalize E and then build an E advantage over the Hog.

The Corsair can outdive and out zoom the K4 with relative ease due to weight and wing design.

Not in my experience, but YMMV.

The K4 is a horrible diver and its advantage in ROC vs the F4U - in actual use as opposed to on paper - is only at lower speeds due to the aforementioned zoom ability of the Corsair, which is not measured.

The K-4 is a good diver if you trim it manually. The K-4 requires a good pilot to get the most out of it, it is not an easy plane to fight. The power to weight ratio of the K-4 compensates for the Hog's greater mass. A K-4 will not have a problem following a Hog in a zoom climb; the Hog will pull away initially, but the K-4 will close the distance near the top of the climb.

In other words, both aircraft being at 400 knots, I wouldnt try climbing away from an F4U because it would follow just fine.

Neither aircraft can sustain 400 knots, I'm going to assume you meant 400 mph. You assume the Hog has the positional advantage of being on the 109's six. In a head-on merge like most fights start the 109 has the advantage like described in my quote above. If the Hog is on the 109's six, both at 400 mph the 109 can gain separation using its superior speed.

Regardless, the two big advantages that the K4 has over much of the plane set are both found at low speeds; the ability to take a low-speed fight into the vertical and the ability to accelerate very quickly.

That is inaccurate; the K-4 has marked advantages at all speeds and most altitudes. The K-4 is the fastest non-perked plane between 5k and 26k+, It is also the best climber (and thus acceleration) in that altitude band. At 20k the K-4 still has a 1,500+ fpm climb advantage against a Hog-1a. Under 5k there are three non-perked planes that are faster: La-7, Dora and Typhoon.

If the fight is at altitude and the K4 can not convert to a guns solution quickly, the Corsair is very capable of holding E in the opposite manner precribed above.  It will outdive the K4 and, as previously mentioned, will then proceed to outzoom the K4 (if the K4 doesnt compress and lawn dart) - reversing any advantage previously held.

The K-4 does not have a compression problem (like the P-38 for instance), it has a control force problem. However, that problem can be alleviated by manual trim (unlike the P-38). An experienced K-4 driver does not lawn-dart, and still has full control at 500 mph being able to pull black-out turns. Trimming is key to handling the K-4 (or any 109 really) at high speed.

Point is - I wouldnt be so quick to discount the Corsair as unable to contend with a K4.  

Nor would I, but if the pilots are good, my money is on the K-4.

[Vudak]

Climb and acceleration are all well and good, Die Hard, and indeed the K4 has all the tools she needs to survive an encounter with a Corsair, but if winning is important, she still needs to either turn around, or come down and kill it, and that can pose some significant problems along the way.

The ability to dance around slow-firing 30mms, and reach out with some long-ranged 50's in return will make dealing with any decently flown hog a challenge.  You have to be aggressive enough to keep the hog burning E, but not so aggressive that the Hog starts to gain the correct angle. 

Remember, the Hog can initiate a zoom from <150 and keep going until darn near zero.  That's a good amount of time for a killshot if the angle is right.  Further, the 109 will eventually stall as well, and if there isn't sufficient angle or separation, they'll just float down neutrally.

I've spent many hours dueling some excellent K4 sticks in the -1 and 1A, and I've found this to be a match up where the two planes can find themselves in a stalemate for quite longer than one might expect from the #s.  It really does come down to who messes up when.

K4's v. 1A's are very fun fights

[Die Hard]

Actually I find them rather boring, me being in the K-4 that is. In the F4U it can be exhilarating... Danger always is.

Draining the Hog's E is indeed a time consuming process unless the Hog driver makes the mistake of dumping all his E to get angles for a difficult shot at the 109 buzzing by. In such a fight fuel is the critical resource rather than ammo. More than once have I been forced to leave defenseless prey alone and RTB because of the Rote Lampe.

 

[Getback]

Actually I find them rather boring, me being in the K-4 that is. In the F4U it can be exhilarating... Danger always is.

Draining the Hog's E is indeed a time consuming process unless the Hog driver makes the mistake of dumping all his E to get angles for a difficult shot at the 109 buzzing by. In such a fight fuel is the critical resource rather than ammo. More than once have I been forced to leave defenseless prey alone and RTB because of the Rote Lampe.

 

Almost all the f4's are just steady beasts. I can hardly pull myself out of them. Occasionally I will hop into a jug or pony. Pony if I'm seeking an advantage over a large group of cons and the jug if I need a large amount of ordinance for gv's.

[BnZs]

Remember, the Hog can initiate a zoom from <150 and keep going until darn near zero. 

Yeesh, sounds like the sort of thing only a P-38 *should* be able to do.

[Vudak]

Actually I find them rather boring, me being in the K-4 that is. In the F4U it can be exhilarating... Danger always is.

Draining the Hog's E is indeed a time consuming process unless the Hog driver makes the mistake of dumping all his E to get angles for a difficult shot at the 109 buzzing by. In such a fight fuel is the critical resource rather than ammo. More than once have I been forced to leave defenseless prey alone and RTB because of the Rote Lampe.

 

It sounds like you're making it more boring than it has to be Go find Creton and ask him to show you how to whoop a Corsair quickly, and you'll have a blast

[mtnman]

Yeesh, sounds like the sort of thing only a P-38 *should* be able to do.

Nah, seems like something almost any plane in the game "should" be able to do.  Heck, I can do it outside with a rock.  Just toss it up vertically, it slows to zero, and falls back down.  

I'm enjoying this thread, and agree with much of what's been posted, but lets try to keep it realistic.  BTW, I'm in line with Die Hard's appraisal for the most part.  

The F4U is flying at double its stall speed at 150, and it's a fighter, not a bomber.  I would certainly hope it would be able to do something as simple as lift its nose at that speed.

I fly the F4U a fair amount, and have lots of films of doing all sorts of things in it.  I can't find one that shows any radical manuevering at speeds much below 120.  In the vertical, I'm not doing much beyond a pre-aimed "coast" at speeds lower than 80.  I may not suddenly flop into the ground as a result of dipping below stall speed, but I'm certainly not doing any serious manuevering either...  As a matter of fact, once I get below about 80, I can reasonably expect to do some required "recovery" control before I can even think about my next combat manuever.

Actually, I'd love to see films of anyone doing otherwise at speeds less than 75-80mph.  Maybe I can learn something.

[Vudak]

I fly the F4U a fair amount, and have lots of films of doing all sorts of things in it.  I can't find one that shows any radical manuevering at speeds much below 120.  In the vertical, I'm not doing much beyond a pre-aimed "coast" at speeds lower than 80.  I may not suddenly flop into the ground as a result of dipping below stall speed, but I'm certainly not doing any serious manuevering either...  As a matter of fact, once I get below about 80, I can reasonably expect to do some required "recovery" control before I can even think about my next combat manuever.

Actually, I'd love to see films of anyone doing otherwise at speeds less than 75-80mph.  Maybe I can learn something.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to create the impression that you can do much when you are that slow, but you can do "nothing" for awhile until you get near zero and tailslide out.

Sometimes doing nothing is what you need to do.  If you're in the right position and can manage to stay there and not prematurely flop into the wrong position, you're all good

About the only thing that I've noticed a hog can do that slow that many other planes can't (at least as well) is decide which way they'd like to flop, be it left or right.  Many planes (the Mustang for example) are real pains in the butt to get to go to the right, and I don't have the same issue with hogs.  So that too is an advantage, if slim.

[BnZs]

Nah, seems like something almost any plane in the game "should" be able to do.  Heck, I can do it outside with a rock.  Just toss it up vertically, it slows to zero, and falls back down.  

I was thinking about the physics of being vertical with very low IAS and full power with a very powerful single prop up front.