109 k-4

[Getback]

I did something yesterday in a F4U-1d that I should have thought better of. I had 1 egg and 8 rockets on board. Didn't want to discard my egg because there was gv's to be had. A p51 came over to the base I was defending. He passes me 3 times without engaging. So I figure he must be heavy as well. Then I came to realize that one of us is going to have to kill the other. So after he dives for a 3rd time I dive on him and he pulls up. I keep my egg and rockets and nervously pull up. Fortunately just before stall I nail him. I was taken back abit. That has never worked before. Afterwards I review the film and sure enough you can see all 6 of his rockets upon close magnification. I couldn't tell if he had bombs or not. I was going to post the picture but you can't see my eggs or my rockets, just the rocket rails.

[Anaxogoras]

I still prefer to fly the 109G-6 or G-14.  Better skins, more history, far more significant aircraft.

[Bosco123]

The K4 is a real pain in the butt to fly, IMO, but if I had to fight 2v1 for the rest of my life, I'd probably take it.

That's how I feel about every 109. If I were in a constant gang of lets say 3 to 4v.1 I would take a 109 over anything.

What's weird is, I cannot fight 109 v. 109 to save my life, but 109 v. Spit, I can beat him 9 out of the 10 times.

[BnZs]

I still prefer to fly the 109G-6 or G-14.  Better skins, more history, far more significant aircraft.

That is how I feel about the P-47D. Not quite enough to fly something 25mph slower than the N mind you, but the feeling *is* there.

[maddafinga]

Nah, seems like something almost any plane in the game "should" be able to do.  Heck, I can do it outside with a rock.  Just toss it up vertically, it slows to zero, and falls back down.  

I'm enjoying this thread, and agree with much of what's been posted, but lets try to keep it realistic.  BTW, I'm in line with Die Hard's appraisal for the most part.  

The F4U is flying at double its stall speed at 150, and it's a fighter, not a bomber.  I would certainly hope it would be able to do something as simple as lift its nose at that speed.

I fly the F4U a fair amount, and have lots of films of doing all sorts of things in it.  I can't find one that shows any radical manuevering at speeds much below 120.  In the vertical, I'm not doing much beyond a pre-aimed "coast" at speeds lower than 80.  I may not suddenly flop into the ground as a result of dipping below stall speed, but I'm certainly not doing any serious manuevering either...  As a matter of fact, once I get below about 80, I can reasonably expect to do some required "recovery" control before I can even think about my next combat manuever.

Actually, I'd love to see films of anyone doing otherwise at speeds less than 75-80mph.  Maybe I can learn something.

I fought Mtnman a couple of times last night, -1a to k4.  Not that it's a good representation of what the k4 can do against the Corsair with equal pilots or anything, but he whupped me pretty quickly and easily both times.  In each case, I just wasn't able to get slow enough to keep from overshooting, squirted out in front and ate a nubmer of 50cal rounds.  I couldn't get my flaps out in time, even with the throttle all the way off and cross control, to keep in a lag position. 

Now I usually like that matchup, and feel good about my chances with a lot of guys, but in this instance, I just couldn't hang at all with him.  They were fun fights though, however short.

[Die Hard]

I just wasn't able to get slow enough...

There's your problem: You shouldn't try to be slow at all.  

If he has E don't go for the shot. He will just force an overshoot and turn back into you. Instead when he breaks you break opposite and climb. Get back on him quick so he can't regain the E he lost in evading you. Use the 13mm MGs to scare him into wasting E while your primary objective is to keep out of his firing arc. Only when he's on the deck and low on E should you try to kill him. Use manual trim (trim nose light for quickly pulling up from dives) and keep your speed high. When you pass him you should never be flying anywhere near in the same direction as he. That is easier if you dive is as vertical as possible; you then just roll and pull up (you'll have to use rudder and trim to roll). Flying the K-4 is like a chess match. Position is key.

[mtnman]

I fought Mtnman a couple of times last night, -1a to k4.  Not that it's a good representation of what the k4 can do against the Corsair with equal pilots or anything, but he whupped me pretty quickly and easily both times.  In each case, I just wasn't able to get slow enough to keep from overshooting, squirted out in front and ate a nubmer of 50cal rounds.  I couldn't get my flaps out in time, even with the throttle all the way off and cross control, to keep in a lag position. 

Now I usually like that matchup, and feel good about my chances with a lot of guys, but in this instance, I just couldn't hang at all with him.  They were fun fights though, however short.

I didn't film all of our encounters, but I have the two I saved uploading, I'll post them in a few minutes.

[moot]

but lets try to keep it realistic. ... In the vertical, I'm not doing much beyond a pre-aimed "coast" at speeds lower than 80.

From 150 to 80 (60 or so if you do things just right in my experience) is an eternity in the vertical, when you've correctly guessed where the fight is going and prepared for it.

[mtnman]

OK, here are the two films I have from madda and me 109K4 vs F4U-1A last night. 

First, I think what you percieved is a common mis-perception.  You mention you couldn't get slow enough.  Look at my speed!  When we're doing the rolling scissors, I'm averaging around 180!  I'm NOT trying to get slow!  In my mind, I'm trying to keep speed, because if I get slow I won't be able to keep up/catch you, and could easily beome helpless!  Watch the film, keep an eye on the speeds.  I think you'll be amazed at how slow I'm NOT.

http://www.mediafire.com/?yjyzmmycadf

Second, look at the next film.  Look at the text.  You mention how I just floated there.  I wasn't floating much in that case either.  I was doing my absolute best to not get shoot by you guys.  Even when I'm slow, I'm not really all that slow...  Sure, a few times I hung, but that was out of desperation with you guys on me.  The times I dip to slow speed I'm vertical, and "falling off" by 80 mph.  Once I dip into the low 60's, but again, I'm falling off with little/no control.  I'm just trying not to spin it.  Unless I have 120mph or so, I'm not doing a whole lot except waiting for my nose to come down and get speed.  When I'm actively manuevering with you guys, my speed is seldom under 120mph, and is generally closer to 200mph.  This fight is basically about three things from my perspective.  One, don't get shot.  Two, don't get slow, unless I can quickly get fast again, and three, don't lose altitude.  That's a tough recipe against two fast planes, who are not flying wingtip to wingtip..

http://www.mediafire.com/?x0zeyqm1m5j

Again, it's amazing how slow I'm NOT.

[mtnman]

From 150 to 80 (60 or so if you do things just right in my experience) is an eternity in the vertical, when you've correctly guessed where the fight is going and prepared for it.

You're right of course, but the same can be said of any plane.  I just tested five to see and compare the vertical performance in that speed range.  I'll post films soon.

Of course the "when you've correctly guess and prepared" idea is pilot skill, rather than plane performance.

[moot]

I wasn't really saying it was true only for the F4U (tho it's esp. true given the F4U's stability and control authority), just that against a K4, being able to hold steady all the way down to 60-80 IAS is very significant.

Pilot skill - Yes and the comparison is between equal pilots.  I think the K4 pilot needs as much skill to successfully exploit the K4's 30mm and engine as he would to ride the F4U's envelope for all it's worth   Tho IMO there's no doubt that the K4 and F4U are pretty disparately matched.. I mean, their optimal regimes don't overlap much. 

[mtnman]

I was thinking about the physics of being vertical with very low IAS and full power with a very powerful single prop up front.

I did a little filming of vertical stall tendancies, to compare.  I didn't care/work on actual zoom height/distance at all, but really wanted to see the difference between the five planes in to 150ish to "zero" airspeed range, and what they were likely to do at the top.

Keep in mind, I don't fly these planes other than the F4U.  I actually had to adjust my views for the 109.  Someone who flies these regularly could probably do better in them.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/w5mz3negtz1/109K4.ahf

http://www.mediafire.com/file/itiogwmndji/F4U vertical.ahf

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zzwmmhm2jy3/P38.ahf

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zmwq44ncyqy/P51.ahf

http://www.mediafire.com/file/xdzlt0d4f5m/Spit16.ahf

One, the P38 is the easiest plane to do that with.  It goes up, falls forward or back, and is basically flyable immediately.  No torque effect, no wing-drop that I could see.  Very easy.  Flaps up, flaps down, it was the easiest to maintain control of.

The 109K4, P51, F4U-1A, and Spit16 all performed about the same.  They all go up into the 60-80 mph range with ease, and no ill effects.  They all go up, slow down, and reach a point where you can no longer keep the nose up, because there's no control authority.  At that point, they'll all flop over and try to spin to some extent.  None were violent by any means.  All were easily recoverable in minimal rotations.  With flaps, and without flaps.  If anything, without flaps was "more comfortable", and easier to recover.  I'm not sure why someone would want to hang vertical with flaps down, especially if they're trying to maximize the vert, but I tried it just the same.

The speed of the fall-over varied a bit, but was as high as about 58mph and as low as 27 mph (both extremes were with the F4U).  The low speed of 27mph actually was part of a fall-off that occured at about 50mph.  For the most part, the planes depart vertical in the 43ish to 55ish mph.  IMO, the speed where they depart vertical has more to do with the set-up angle and use of controls, less to do with the plane-type.  If anything, I thought the 109 hung better (but not as good as the P38), and the plane I fly most fell off earliest.  And that's with essentially no 109 experience...  I couldn't get any of them to "zero" mph.

Not by much, and I don't think the speed difference is enough to matter much in real world (AH) scenarios, since with adequate SA we shouldn't be dragging planes up for ropes that are faster than us, in guns range, or at an angle where they can "cut the corner" on us.  Hanging on the top of rolls in the rolling scissors is nice, but even then we're almost never all that slow, at least I'm not, as you can see by the earlier films.

[maddafinga]

OK, here are the two films I have from madda and me 109K4 vs F4U-1A last night. 

First, I think what you percieved is a common mis-perception.  You mention you couldn't get slow enough.  Look at my speed!  When we're doing the rolling scissors, I'm averaging around 180!  I'm NOT trying to get slow!  In my mind, I'm trying to keep speed, because if I get slow I won't be able to keep up/catch you, and could easily beome helpless!  Watch the film, keep an eye on the speeds.  I think you'll be amazed at how slow I'm NOT.

http://www.mediafire.com/?yjyzmmycadf

Second, look at the next film.  Look at the text.  You mention how I just floated there.  I wasn't floating much in that case either.  I was doing my absolute best to not get shoot by you guys.  Even when I'm slow, I'm not really all that slow...  Sure, a few times I hung, but that was out of desperation with you guys on me.  The times I dip to slow speed I'm vertical, and "falling off" by 80 mph.  Once I dip into the low 60's, but again, I'm falling off with little/no control.  I'm just trying not to spin it.  Unless I have 120mph or so, I'm not doing a whole lot except waiting for my nose to come down and get speed.  When I'm actively manuevering with you guys, my speed is seldom under 120mph, and is generally closer to 200mph.  This fight is basically about three things from my perspective.  One, don't get shot.  Two, don't get slow, unless I can quickly get fast again, and three, don't lose altitude.  That's a tough recipe against two fast planes, who are not flying wingtip to wingtip..

http://www.mediafire.com/?x0zeyqm1m5j

Again, it's amazing how slow I'm NOT.

Yeah I see what you  mean there.  It really is amazing how different those fights looked from my perspective too.  I think when I said slow I'm meaning slow relative to me maybe.  From my perspective  it looked quite different really.  That spot where I said you just sort of floated it around was in the sort of falling spiral where I overshot you.  I think I'm seeing the overshoot combined with angle and lag and that made it look like you were almost just hovering, when really you were moving pretty fast and I was moving just a bit faster. 

I think I'm a victim of trying to get too close and follow you through stuff there instead of extend at times or get much more vertical seperation in that rolling scissors.  It looked like I was making a lot of moves in a lead position rather than making wider lag kinda moves.  I think. 

I'm just trying to learn to do this stuff, so I'm probably mistaken there.  It's obvious to me that I need a lot of work. 


That first film by the way, I think I have it saved on my end too.  Those were really fun fights no matter what, I enjoy fighting and bsing with you.

[mtnman]

Yeah I see what you  mean there.  It really is amazing how different those fights looked from my perspective too.  I think when I said slow I'm meaning slow relative to me maybe.  From my perspective  it looked quite different really.  That spot where I said you just sort of floated it around was in the sort of falling spiral where I overshot you.  I think I'm seeing the overshoot combined with angle and lag and that made it look like you were almost just hovering, when really you were moving pretty fast and I was moving just a bit faster.  

I think I'm a victim of trying to get too close and follow you through stuff there instead of extend at times or get much more vertical seperation in that rolling scissors.  It looked like I was making a lot of moves in a lead position rather than making wider lag kinda moves.  I think.  

I'm just trying to learn to do this stuff, so I'm probably mistaken there.  It's obvious to me that I need a lot of work.  


That first film by the way, I think I have it saved on my end too.  Those were really fun fights no matter what, I enjoy fighting and bsing with you.

Good, I think you're seeing what you should be seeing in that film.  If the 109K4 keeps the fight a bit more "loose" and uses the vertical, and avoids turning tight and close with the F4U, the F4U IMO, is going to have a rough time getting the upper hand.  Almost without fail, when I'm attacked by a K4, or merge with one that doesn't scrub loads of E with a hard, tight immelmann, all I can do is dodge his attacks, and hopefully do a decent enough job that he gets frustrated and decides to latch onto my tail.  I've been on the recieving end of enough 109K4 attacks to know that I can't control the fight UNTIL the 109 pilot starts to PLAY TO MY STRENGTHS.  The same can be said for several other planes out there, ponies and 190D9's immediately come to mind.  I'm not fast enough to direct the fight, so I have to frustrate them enough to stop playing to their strengths, and get gutsy or impatient enough to play to mine.

If/when he does that, I'm going to try to present a side profile in order to present a smaller target, and also to maximize his closure rate.  We may be about the same speed, but if I can get him to attack from my side, he'll close on me rapidly, creating the illusion that I'm fairly slow.  My goal here is to get him to try to saddle up, and also to think he's too fast, so he'll (hopefully) try to slow down.  If that goes well I'll have the overshoot I want, with him slowing down, and then all I need is to panic him with a well-placed sprinkle of lead.  I'll still have enough speed to pressure him into a turn which he's not likely to survive, or even better, he'll try to zoom upward out of my range.

But see, it all hinges on the 109 pilot falling into my strengths, and towards his weakness.  If he stays fast and vertical, I can't really compete.  I have to do the same thing against hurri's and zero's, or any other plane I can't turn with.  I don't dare turn with them, so I stay fast.

You fought well.  I'm just trying to point out that things may not always be as they appear.  What you think is slow, may not actually be slow.

[MjTalon]

I still prefer to fly the 109G-6 or G-14.  Better skins, more history, far more significant aircraft.

+1 Gav. I enjoy flying the G6 every now and then when I can. Just to make sure i haven't lost it too much.