Mixing the Periods

[SkViper]

I know this is a huge subject, and I have not read all the posts about it, but I wanted to start with a fresh point of view.

My thoughts on the mix of the plane set in Aces High (and other sims) is that to often the "Early War" planes get cast aside because they are useless against the "Late War" models.
I guess there are many ways of dealing with this; Seperate Arenas, Limit Availability, Just don't Produce certain types...etc.

My thoughts on the 3 above:
Seperate Arenas: Tend to split the community and are not as fun.
Limit Availability: I haven't seen this idea in action yet. The idea would be to limit the aircraft available in a Tour. For instance, set up Tour # 11 with just 1944 active aircraft. Then set Tour 12 to 1941...13 1942...14 1943...etc. This would give us the opportunity to enjoy the planes in a more actual setting rather than an over powering Ubbers Rule environment. I know there will be some discussion of Arenas; Pac should not battle Euro, but I think that will work out.
Just don't produce certain types: Well, I guess we all want to know what it would have been like to fly ANY WW2 plane.  This one is not a good idea.

As an Ex-Air Warrior, I can tell you I left the arena many times because some rocket Jockey B&Z amazinhunk like Zazen had to interrupt a great dogfight with his Ubber Dora.
That is aggrevating to both pilots in the fight and many people hated him for it. I haven't seen such displays in AH yet, and hope I never will.

SkViper

[SKurj]

Heard a rumour that Mage = Zazen??  Any truth?

SKurj

[SkViper]

LOL,
No! At least not physically!

[popeye]

I think lazs has the right idea for getting early war planes into the game.  I would modify it a bit:

Put three airfields in the center of the MA, and surround them with a ring of 40K mountains to keep buffs and late war planes out.  Enable only early war planes a those fields, and harden the structures to make them nearly impossible to close.  Add some potent ack to discourage vultching.  Throw in some canyons and clouds.

Now you have an early war, twisty-turny, arena in the middle of the MA.  The key is that the whole player population will be able to see the sector bars and ch1 there from any location in the MA, making it easy for everyone to know when there is action there.

[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 11-16-2000).]

[SkViper]

 

Originally posted by popeye:
I think lazs has the right idea for getting early war planes into the game.  I would modify it a bit:

Put three airfields in the center of the MA, and surround them with a ring of 40K mountains to keep buffs and late war planes out.  Enable only early war planes a those fields, and harden the structures to make them nearly impossible to close.  Add some potent ack to discourage vultching.  Throw in some canyons and clouds.

Now you have an early war, twisty-turny, arena in the middle of the MA.  The key is that the whole player population will be able to see the sector bars and ch1 there from any location in the MA, making it easy for everyone to know when there is action there.

[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 11-16-2000).]

I don't see where this will be any different from a seperate arena. Any player in this vaulted area will not be participating in the MA strategic event.

By placing it in the middle of the arena, you would also disrupt the playability of the entire areana.

SkViper

[popeye]

The major argument against a separate arena is that most people go where the most action is when they log on.  Once there, they don't check other arenas, and the less populated arena will starve for players.  With the early war and late war in the same arena, there is a greater likelyhood of people moving between the two.

This assumes a player base not large enough to easily populate two arenas.  Given that, there would be no additional "load" to disrupt playability in the MA.

[miststlkr]

What if there was a way in/out of the sectioned off area and it took up a side of the MA instead of the center.  Make the mountains like you said and make a small pass that would make it possible to get in/out but slightly difficult so people don't pass in/out by accident.

[Westy]

 Put three bases close together in the corner of a map, ring it with some regular mountains but add in alot of tough hitting 88's so the FPS don't crumble due to the terrain. Do NOT enable C-47's there. Bombers only if they can't bomb any of the three bases.

 I like the dogfights for the most part. I hate when there's been an hour or so of some fantastic furballing between many players on a couple of sides only to look up as a 25k Lanc comes in, solo - with no intent or ability to capture the base and the bastidge shuts down the FH's.

 But do not make it a seperate arena because Popeye is 100% correct, as folks will gravitate to where the numbers are. Besides, it's nice to still hear all the banter on channel one and I like being able to change the gameplay by selecting another base and the geography without having to log off the MA and go to another arena.

  -Westy

[SkViper]

The whole >Dogfight only area< brings back bad memories of AW3 Big Pac Fighter Town.

20 BZ agains 10 AZ and 10 CZ while the rest of the AZ and CZ raped the BZ lonely landscape.
The fights were fun, but for the guys that didn't Dogfight, it sucked being run over because no one would help you.
Then there were all the "Nintendo" comments...sheesh.

SkViper

[StSanta]

Hm, I think it's fun to fly the early war planes. More of a challenge, and I do reasonbly ok in the g2, g6 and f4.

190A8 is more challenging for me though (but a late war plane in terms of year introduced (not performance though)), so I fly it now.

When the perk system comes, I'll save all my perk points and fly the early 109's, Will be fun shooting down F4U-4's in a 190F4  .



------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}

[-lazs-]

Ok... pops idea is fine except that I would like to have carriers for early war planes at some point....

The real reason I want a seperate "section" in the common arena is because it will all be on the same map.   A person can check radar, make decisions and switch feilds/era's effortlessly while still keeping the planeset fair parity wise.

People will tend to try new planes/eras in such a situation much like they try buffs or vehicles or manned ack or what ever now... they will do it when they get bored with their current situation.   If the action in the mid war area gets old you can look at the map and be turning and burning in canyon world in a flash.   If endless adreniline rush starts to get old... Jump into the mid war era or the uber area.  

I can think of no other solution that would allow early war planes to compete without forcing an early war only generation or RPS.  Can anyone???

I, and my squad were bored with the map last nite.   Everyone seemed to want more action than was currently available.   We logged a few at a time.   I can't help but think that we would have migrated to a turn and burn early war area for a while if it had existed.

More choice and variety is all that I am advocating but I think that a lot of the thinly disguised fear is that people will all go to one arena or another therefore "forcing" you to go where the people are.   I don't see this happening and I see the early war area as a mere diversion for the vast majority and a welcome change of pace at times.
lazs

[UncleBuck]

since AH has the tour thing.  the best way to incorporate the early war aircraft would be make each tour a set of years.  Tour W "the beginning" only planes in service prior to July 1942.  Tour X all Planes available prior to July 1943, Tour Y All Planes available prior to July 1944 and finally a Tour Z where all planes are again available.  Then just repeat.  this adds to realism, since it follows the progression of the war. It gives all the planes the chances they historically had.  As for carriers you can still have them and even plane them but by the planes available by year.  Until early war carrier planes are available the TBF could be used, that would not be ubber I would guess.  

                  UncleBuck

[-lazs-]

unc... Some people will absolutely refuse to fly planes from certain periods.   Every sim I have seen has a drop in numbers during early war only periods.   Don't get me wrong.... I love early war but I have learned to face facts....    Some/a lot of people simply will not fly unless their mustang or dora is available and they outnumber the early war pilots in every case.

Early war planes require a different skill than late war and some people are not very flexable.   No way to "force" em or "entice" or belittle em into it.  

Seperate arenas die due to the fact that everyone goes to where the people are or where their buddies are.   It is too hard to get people to leave one arena to fill an empty one.   Generational themes just cause a drop in player base during unpopular generations.... these are the facts of life as I have seen them in WWII flight sims.   Seperate arenas or rolling planesets  don't work well.
lazs

[SkViper]

 

Originally posted by -lazs-:

I, and my squad were bored with the map last nite.   Everyone seemed to want more action than was currently available.   We logged a few at a time.

You are not a Rook are you? Unfortunately, we Rooks had gathered lots of land and last night got our lights put out.  The problem was that there were more than 55 each of Knights and Bishops, but less than 45 Rooks.
This makes for boring milk runs due to the overwhelming odds where most people were flying.

 

Originally posted by -lazs-:

More choice and variety is all that I am advocating but I think that a lot of the thinly disguised fear is that people will all go to one arena or another therefore "forcing" you to go where the people are.   I don't see this happening and I see the early war area as a mere diversion for the vast majority and a welcome change of pace at times.
lazs

I was in Air Warrior when the Big Pac Arena was interrupted by the new Euro Arena.
Over 1/3 of the pilots moved to the new arena and fewer than 1/3 stayed in Big Pac.
The rest stopped flying as frequently and some even cancled their accounts.

It was not much fun.

SkViper

[-lazs-]

sk... I said arena but meant "area" as I said later in the quote...  I agree with you that mid war euro is allways going to shut down any other arena.   I prefer early war and/or PAC but I have faced the facts that there is a much smaller percentage of people that feel the way I do.   Probly about 10-20%... Two arenas won't work... I feel that 2 AREAS will.... being able to keep track of what is happening in the early war area easily and being able to shift to it when boredome sets in (for whatever reason) will probly keep that area populated with a viable number of players.

No... I don't fly rook.   The new map is to many of my squad... less fun and the action is harder to get into.... The fact that bombers can close or limit a field so easily makes it even worse.   By the time you get to a field it is either closed or nothing is happening.   A wasted run.   One is ok I suppose but when that happens 2 or three times in a row then an hour has been wasted IMO.

An early war area would do a lot to mitigate the frustration.   Sure, endless excitement gets old but... It sure would be nice to have the option.
lazs