Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...

[usvi]

It is not a HO it is the John Wayne merge face to face guns blazing. sounds fair to me.

[BlauK]

Hartmann claimed 352 aerial victories (of which 345 were won against the Soviet Air Force, and 260 of which were fighters).  The early war Soviets were hand drawing sights on their windscreens, per Hartmann himself.

Remember that Hartmann was a late starter. He got his first kill on Nov 5th, 1942. In July 1943, he scored only his 18th. At that point Soviets already owned the airspace, but then again, Hartmann got a target rich environment.

[Wizkid]

I met „Bubi“ Hartmann 1961 during a drinking party at Ahlhorn Airbase, Germany, where he, as Lt.Col. was commanding the 71 German Air Force Fighter Wing (on F86s), which later was renamed JG 71 “Richthoven” (on F104Gs).
He was a close friend of my later father in law, German Army Major, Karl Waller. They both had spent serveral years in Russian POW camps until 1956. Bubi personally introduced me to my later wife, the daughter of ther beforementioned friend Karl Waller. I am still married to this girl, since 46 years now, have 2 children and 4 grandchildren.
Bubi Hartmann has always been a close friend of the family and many a story of old, former and modern ace-pilotage was exchanged.
When I was serving as an instructor pilot in the German Air Force Fighter Weapons School on F104Gs, Bubi was about to take a conversion course onto the F104G system, when he simply quit and said, “….that aircraft does not have my kind of turning capability…”. He never finished the course and stuck to his beloved F86.
Bubi made full (bird-) Colonel in the post war German Airforce and was retired as such, he never managed to become a General.

May be, he had to many envious adversaries in the post war GAF, who never matched the war time success of Bubi´s.
I am prowd to have known him, his grave is located in the vicinity of his hometown Stuttgart, Germany.

[Saurdaukar]

I met „Bubi“ Hartmann 1961 during a drinking party at Ahlhorn Airbase, Germany, where he, as Lt.Col. was commanding the 71 German Air Force Fighter Wing (on F86s), which later was renamed JG 71 “Richthoven” (on F104Gs).
He was a close friend of my later father in law, German Army Major, Karl Waller. They both had spent serveral years in Russian POW camps until 1956. Bubi personally introduced me to my later wife, the daughter of ther beforementioned friend Karl Waller. I am still married to this girl, since 46 years now, have 2 children and 4 grandchildren.
Bubi Hartmann has always been a close friend of the family and many a story of old, former and modern ace-pilotage was exchanged.
When I was serving as an instructor pilot in the German Air Force Fighter Weapons School on F104Gs, Bubi was about to take a conversion course onto the F104G system, when he simply quit and said, “….that aircraft does not have my kind of turning capability…”. He never finished the course and stuck to his beloved F86.
Bubi made full (bird-) Colonel in the post war German Airforce and was retired as such, he never managed to become a General.

May be, he had to many envious adversaries in the post war GAF, who never matched the war time success of Bubi´s.
I am prowd to have known him, his grave is located in the vicinity of his hometown Stuttgart, Germany.

 

[BlauK]

Interesting story, Wizkid. Thanks for sharing it

[Crash Orange]

Ho's happen, but relying on them is a crutch.

Who said anything about relying on them?

[The Fugitive]

How is it not "combat" (in the game sense you're using)? You're shooting each other until one or both are "destroyed". Sounds like combat to me.

What you mean is it isn't courtly, honorable dueling. That's all nice I guess, but I would say less than 10% of the encounters I have in this game take the form of dueling. Take the exceptions WMLute listed and add a few others (vulched on takeoff, jumped by a picker from 5k+ up while you were fighting someone else, jumped by a faster plane when you're already past bingo fuel and just trying to get home, attacking or defending a base, or in the middle of a furball with 8 or 10 or more planes on each side), and you no longer have exceptions, you have the rule. Co-alt, co-e merges into 1-1 duels are the rare exception.

That doesn't make HOing a good move in every one of those situations, but it means most of the analysis here, which is based on those mythical 1-1 honorable duels, is BS. And the "bad habit" is expecting and acting like the other 90% of the game is one of those mythical courtly duels and whining when it doesn't turn out that way.

For example: if I'm 10' off the runway taking off and barely have enough speed to maneuver or zoom at all, and you come screaming in to vulch me and are dumb enough to do it from an angle where I can possibly get guns on you for half a second, damned straight I'm gonna HO yer schnoz and laugh hard if I succeed. That's all your fault for turning a situation where you have every possible advantage into one where you have the same chances I have, and taking the best shot I'm likely to get is the smart move for me. There's no magical ACM or "pile-it stuff" that I'm neglecting that's going to give me an advantage after that "merge," and there's no duel for me to engage in or avoid.

And that goes double, or maybe triple, if I'm defending a base so I know that if I get shot down I can just up again in 10 seconds while if you die you've got a 10-minute flight to return. In that situation a success rate of 1 in 10 is still a win in strategic terms no matter how disastrous it is to my score, because I've accomplished my objective and you have failed at yours. Is that logic like real life where you only get one life? Of course not, but then we've already agreed that this game isn't real life, haven't we?

The situation in a  big, messy furball is different but similar logic applies. If we're both maneuvering with other planes and all of a sudden I see you about to go nose to nose for a split second and give me a snap shot, I'm not going to pass it up because it isn't "honorable," especially if I think you're target fixated and won't see it coming. And chances are my maneuvering after the shot will have nothing to do with you whether I succeed in killing you or not anyway, I'll be more concerned with whoever I was engaged with before we stumbled into each other. This has nothing to do with wanting to avoid a "fair fight" in the sense of an even duel since nobody involved is going to get one regardless. It's just a reflection of the fact that in a big, complicated fight ACM takes a back seat to SA and gunnery.

Of course those calculations have nothing to do with courtly duels, but then if you're only interested in fighting courtly duels then you won't be over my field trying to vulch people taking off or in the middle of a 20-plane furball, so you don't have to worry about it.

LOL!!! Have you got that backwards !!!

A strait up HO is exactly like a dual... you both turn and face each other and shoot !! Luckiest aim wins !

Combat is more along he line of chess. Your skill level is to just use blunt force and try to smash your way to the win... you can "up again in 10 seconds while if you die you've got a 10-minute flight to return" is what you said. On the other hand there are many of us who don't care who wins the war, how high our scores are, what rank we are. To us the game is all about that "chess match" against one or more bad guys. "If I go this way, and he goes that way, will I have a shot?".

While honor and class would be a nice thing to have in our game it just isn't going to happen. Far to many adolescents of varying ages haven't a clue what "honor" or "class" is. However, seeing as we are playing a combat type game, would it be a too much to ask for some "combat" instead of the usual HO 90% or the time? 

[smokey23]

I thought eric cartman was that fat kid on southpark??

[A8HatTrick]

LOL!!! Have you got that backwards !!!

A strait up HO is exactly like a dual... you both turn and face each other and shoot !! Luckiest aim wins !

Combat is more along he line of chess. Your skill level is to just use blunt force and try to smash your way to the win... you can "up again in 10 seconds while if you die you've got a 10-minute flight to return" is what you said. On the other hand there are many of us who don't care who wins the war, how high our scores are, what rank we are. To us the game is all about that "chess match" against one or more bad guys. "If I go this way, and he goes that way, will I have a shot?".

While honor and class would be a nice thing to have in our game it just isn't going to happen. Far to many adolescents of varying ages haven't a clue what "honor" or "class" is. However, seeing as we are playing a combat type game, would it be a too much to ask for some "combat" instead of the usual HO 90% or the time? 

Coming from a Nose Cannon P38 Lemming of course..................... sorry couldnt resist. 

[gyrene81]

I thought eric cartman was that fat kid on southpark??

(Image removed from quote.)

I knew it...I just knew it!!! I was going to put a disclaimer in my original post just in case but thought I'd wait and see... 

[BnZs]

LOL!!! Have you got that backwards !!!

A strait up HO is exactly like a duel... you both turn and face each other and shoot !! Luckiest aim wins !

Incorrect. A pistol duel carries the possibility of it NOT ending with one man dead and one man fatally injured.

[Crash Orange]

While honor and class would be a nice thing to have in our game it just isn't going to happen. Far to many adolescents of varying ages haven't a clue what "honor" or "class" is.

The fact that you think "honor" refers to a preferred style of AH2 play speaks volumes about your lack of it.

You also don't know a thing about duels, or jousting. You're just spewing ignorance, but what else is new?

[Scotch]

 

[TnDep]

I've researched alot about Erich Hartmann and as far as I've read alot of his kills were in a downward dive using the sun as cover.  I also read somewhere that he was in a fight with 8 P-51's and killed several before the others fled.  352 kills reguardless one amazing pilot.

[Masherbrum]

I met „Bubi“ Hartmann 1961 during a drinking party at Ahlhorn Airbase, Germany, where he, as Lt.Col. was commanding the 71 German Air Force Fighter Wing (on F86s), which later was renamed JG 71 “Richthoven” (on F104Gs).
He was a close friend of my later father in law, German Army Major, Karl Waller. They both had spent serveral years in Russian POW camps until 1956. Bubi personally introduced me to my later wife, the daughter of ther beforementioned friend Karl Waller. I am still married to this girl, since 46 years now, have 2 children and 4 grandchildren.
Bubi Hartmann has always been a close friend of the family and many a story of old, former and modern ace-pilotage was exchanged.
When I was serving as an instructor pilot in the German Air Force Fighter Weapons School on F104Gs, Bubi was about to take a conversion course onto the F104G system, when he simply quit and said, “….that aircraft does not have my kind of turning capability…”. He never finished the course and stuck to his beloved F86.
Bubi made full (bird-) Colonel in the post war German Airforce and was retired as such, he never managed to become a General.

May be, he had to many envious adversaries in the post war GAF, who never matched the war time success of Bubi´s.
I am prowd to have known him, his grave is located in the vicinity of his hometown Stuttgart, Germany.

You are one lucky son of a gun and I say that with the utmost respect.   I wish I could meet just one Ace before I leave this Earth and simply ask a couple questions and shake a hand.   But Hartmann has always been my favorite.   Growing up, my oldest brother had a painting of his G-6 in our room.   My mother gave it to me to hang in my home, but I gave it back to my brother to hang in his home.   His eyes lit up at the sight of it and that meant more to me than anything, as he thought it was lost.  

   Air!  

Rufus.   TY