Poor Gunnery

[boomerlu]

I don't agree for a minute that you can get "too used to tracers".  Or that turning them off forces you to do anything but a whole lot of guessing, and then more guessing when the initial guess doesn't pan out, followed by more guessing when you miss again...

Thinking about this, I see your point. I'm having to re-evaluate my experience and how this relates. Since addressing your words directly would probably muddle the point, let me restate completely:

After thinking about it, I have to conclude it's purely psychological. When I originally had tracers on I thought to myself "Oh, if I miss this, I will get great feedback on where I missed whether high, low, forward or behind. Then I can adjust my aim and take a better shot next time." It's almost lazy thought, it also disengages me from using my instinct to pick my aim point.

Upon turning tracers off, I thought to myself "I can't afford to miss this. I have no feedback so I have to rely purely on instinct." As it turns out, relying purely on instinct was better.

No doubt I developed the instinct/feel for lead by flying with tracers on to begin with. No debate. Developing the feel without visual feedback can only be a long and frustrating process. If you remember, I wanted to get a precise visual representation of vertical bullet trajectory and you (I think it was you) showed me how in the 109 thread. Again, no debate that tracers are useful.

Once I learned the visual and developed my feel, turning tracers off forced me to engage the instinct. I regarded each firing situation as a "must hit" rather than an "experiment" (experiment as in let's fire a shot and see where it goes then adjust).

Purely personal, you may not have had this experience. This may even be completely unnecessary. It certainly isn't true that you MUST have tracers off to engage instinct.

So I guess I will no longer "advocate" tracers off but merely suggest it as something to try.

I don't understand your reference to tracers being an "artificial handicap".

You have my meaning backwards. I meant no tracers as the "artificial handicap".

I hit on that tiny little burst most of the time.  Would that improve if I stopped having a clue where my "misses" were going?

Is guessing going to help me improve (and I'd still like to improve, I won't be happy until my hit% is better than 50%, and I'm a long way from there...) more quickly than knowing?

Here's the thing - it doesn't matter whether you guess or know where your rounds are going because that feedback happens after the fact. Your initial aim point is only a guess anyways even if your skill at making guesses is so good that you "hit on that tiny little burst most of the time". Having tracers on cannot help you make a better guess "now", only in future situations.

Tracers can help you learn gunnery but they cannot make you a better shooter during your burst except to tell you "I should keep on shooting because the enemy will fly through my stream" or "I should stop shooting because I'm clearly already missing".

Again it's purely psychological and personal, but turning tracers off made me turn off "learning mode" in my head and turn on "shooting mode". I used to waste time actually firing test bursts and then picking a new aim point (note this can still be useful in some situations, but not in the middle of a knife fight while you're trying to take a deflection shot).

Now that I've tasted "shooting mode" and have tried tracers on again, I can say that I am now in both "learning mode" and "shooting mode" at the same time. Once more, purely personal, others may start off in both "modes" at the same time.

To kind of answer your question (which is half meant to provoke a response and half actually curious), no. From what you've told me, you're a good enough shooter already that you clearly do not need to turn tracers off.

That advice is for guys like my past self who actually test their bullet paths while in the middle of a fight.

How much did shooting tracers off improve your gunnery?  How accurate did it make you overall?

Ok, if you would like something scientific, I of course can't provide hard evidence for my my claims. I have not kept track.

Subjectively: could I be much better? Yes of course, my percentage is nowhere near "good". Did turning tracers off make me shoot better? Yes. Did turning tracers back on make me a worse shot? No. Will I continue to fly with tracers? Probably. Do I feel that briefly going no tracers made me "turn on" my instinct? Yes. Is going no tracers absolutely necessary to "turn on" that instinct? It probably isn't, but nonetheless it did work for me.

[Patches1]

Re: Gunnery....listen to Mtnman.

A former Squaddie of mine was once an instructor at the Naval Fighter Weapons School (Top Gun) and I asked him about whether I should shoot with tracers on, or tracers off. His answer was, "Out fly your opponent and it doesn't matter whether you have tracers on, or off."

Of course my next question was, "What convergence do you use?". His answer, "250".

My next question was, "How far away do you shoot?". His answer, "Nothing over 350 and that's a long shot."

Well, there it was, all spelled out for me. I left tracers on, had a groovy gunsite, changed my convergence, and didn't shoot at anything over 350...and was still missing like a champ...for MONTHS! I was mortified! Eventually, I figured out where I was making my mistake and my gunnery immediately improved!

The answer to my gunnery problem lay in his reply to my first question.

So, concentrate on your flying, not on your gun site, and then you will begin to see the shot opportunities arise. Gunnery is all about flying first, and shooting second.

DISCLAIMER: My gunnery is only as good as my flying, and my flying is only as good as the number of beers I haven't
consumed before flying.

[Ack-Ack]

How much did shooting tracers off improve your gunnery?  How accurate did it make you overall?

I've always recommened flying with tracers off to force you to learn how to lead with your gunsights instead of with your tracers.  A lot of the problems I see with players and their gunnery is that they tend to lead with their tracers, result is a lot of spraying and praying and not very many rounds on the target.  Of course, it all boils down to personal preference and what feels best for you. 

I can say though that turning them off did work for me when working to improve my gunnery skills and that's been reflected in the increase of my hit percentage.  My hit percentage now stays within the 15% to 20% range (though it will decrease due to strafing ground targets) but turning off the tracers isn't the only reason for my improved hit percentage.  I also tend to take only high probability shots, fire in short controlled bursts, aim for certain areas of the plane where I have an increased chance of scoring an immediate kill or causing catastrophic damage to the bandit, and fire at close ranges (400 yds or closer) and will only take shots at long range if there is a high probability of my rounds hitting the bandit. 

An added benefit to good gunnery also shows in other areas like assists.  With good gunnery skills, the chances of scoring an out right kill or causing catastrophic damage increases and the likelyhood of someone coming in and trying to take the kill and you end up with an assist decreases.  I average a few hundred kills per campaign and only get a dozen or so assists, which I attribute to in great part to my gunnery.


ack-ack

[Lusche]

Just my personal experience:

Tunring of tracers kills my ability to hit.

I tried this three times during my AH career, once as a n00b and the last time as a "vet" with an average hit% of >12
Each time I was fine for the first few hours, but then my ability to hit declined... slowly at first, then massively accelerating. After a week I was almost unable to hit anything anymore. I couldn't even figure out if I did lead too far, not enough, if my bullets went over or under my enemy...
It seems as I do need the tracers to keep my mental image.

[boomerlu]

His answer was, "Out fly your opponent and it doesn't matter whether you have tracers on, or off."

This is slightly related to "tracers off". When I had tracers on, I did not fly as well because when I got on a target, I would not line up the best possible shot immediately. Instead I would do as Ack-Ack described and "lead with my tracers", spraying a bit, adjusting my lead, spraying some more, etc.

I knew I wasn't just imagining the improvement. Again, it'll only help those of us who "lead with our tracers" in the first place and again it's purely a psychological thing.

[ink]

well after reading this, I decided to turn my tracers back on, I have the absolutely the worst gunnery in game, for the last month I have been flying with them off, my hit % is about the same 4%, 

heck I just looked its gone up to 5.99%,   i have never gotten it up that high(high ) before, so forget that I am keeping them off.

[mtnman]

Lol, you guys talk about leading with your tracers as if that's a bad thing!  It's what you should be doing.  

That's exactly how people learn...  Trial and error, and insight gained through that trial and error.  The tracers give you feedback on your attempt (trial) and give you a basis for correcting the perceived error.  Without that feedback, learning is still possible, but will take longer, probably lead to more frustration, probable formation of bad habits, and probable "superstitious" belief.

When you fly level, and at 1G, your gun sight is accurate.  When you deviate from that condition, it no longer is.  It no longer gives you a reference to where your bullets are going.  Depending on the situation, it may be off slightly, or off drastically.

Turning off your tracers not only takes away feedback on where you're missing, it also takes away feedback on where your bullets go in relation to the gun sight.  It's a double-whammy.

Instinct- you have none when it comes to shooting.  Instinct is an inherited behavior, and can not be turned/forced on/off at will.  Instincts are most valuable for situations that occur few times in an organisms life, and need to be done correctly the first time.  Classic examples are courtship behavior, nesting/incubation/offspring rearing, etc.  An instinct is also often valuable for a situation where an immediate response is needed without the benefit of prior learning or experience in that matter.  An organism doesn't need to learn these things, and if it did, it could have drastic negative effects.  A bird doesn't need to learn how to build a nest, or incubate its eggs.  That doesn't mean that some learning can't be associated with these behaviors (you could learn to improve how you feed your kids, for example), but for the most part, first-timers will have about as good a chance of success as more experienced individuals...

Your shooting skill is a voluntary learned behavior.  It's a skill produced by conscious, voluntary responses, which are not automatic, and not necessarily immediate.  Insight learning and experience are huge driving factors.

You could argue that people have an instinct to use tools, I suppose.  That's probably true to some extent.  But the actual technique for using a particular tool isn't instinctive, it's learned.  The gun is an extension of your hand, the bullet is an extension of the gun, which again, is an extension of the hand.  Using the hand extension may be instinctual, but getting accurate with it is learned.

Hitting a moving target, from a moving vehicle, is actually a pretty complex problem to solve.  

"Instinctive" shooters don't shoot instinctively.  They make (often very fast) judgments based on past experience.  They've "seen this situation before" (or at least one similar) and memory drives the decision on how to aim.  

Imagine a quarterback throwing to a running receiver, surrounded by defenders, while being charged by big scary guys.  His accuracy is based on his ability to "remember" similar scenarios, and adjust if needed to hit his target.  He's thrown behind his target before, and "remembers" what that felt/looked like.  He's also been successful before, and has learned how hard to throw, at what angle, and how far in front of his target he needs to throw to "hit" it.  His future throws are based on past experience.  If you only let him see his "hits" while he was learning, and didn't allow him to see where his misses went, he'd have no basis (except luck and guesses) for insightful learning (which is a key aspect of learned behavior)  His learning would still be possible, but would likely be at a drastically slower pace...

Can you learn to shoot without tracers?  Sure...  But, why?  There would have to be a serious "up" side to it, to make it worth all the extra time, effort, and frustration...

[mtnman]

well after reading this, I decided to turn my tracers back on, I have the absolutely the worst gunnery in game, for the last month I have been flying with them off, my hit % is about the same 4%, 

heck I just looked its gone up to 5.99%,   i have never gotten it up that high(high ) before, so forget that I am keeping them off.

From my experience, hitting/maintaining the 10% mark was the most difficult.  Once I reached that, I found I can pretty much raise it at will.  It took a while (and some thought) to hit that benchmark, but once I hit it a 12-15% doesn't require any real effort.  It stays there pretty much regardless of whether I'm strafing, spraying at someone I want to scare into turning, or even if I have a "bad" spell.

[boomerlu]

Mtnman, sorry if my wording is throwing you. By "instinct" I mean "intuitive learned behavior accessed very quickly." I'm not trying to touch off this debate about courtship behavior and specific definition of "instinct". I simply mean that when I first turned tracers off (yes, after learning where my bullets go with tracers on), I stopped testing my bullets and started relying on my learned intuition - using a very fast snap decision based on what I've seen before.

And by "leading with the tracers" - you're going to have to be more specific as to what that means. To me it means I am firing a test burst to see where my shots are going. Instead of flying to a proper aim point, I was usually flying pipper on or only with slight lead and firing tests bursts to see if they would land (which inevitably they wouldn't). Again, I was in "learning mode" as if I was still firing against offline drones, inching my gunsight forward to see the precise point where I need to shoot to get a hit.

I didn't know it at the time, but turning tracers off gave me the psychological switch to use my learned intuition. I think this is what everybody else is saying.

Now that we've had this discussion and I've realized it was purely a psychological switch, I don't see any reason it couldn't have been done with tracers on the whole time. Nonetheless, turning tracers off did work for me. It's something I tried on a whim, without any sound reasoning, but doing so and now talking to you mtnman me realize what turning tracers off did.

Again your points resound. Maybe it suffices to simply say to the student "stop testing your rounds, pick a proper aim point and go for it". The trainers (being a group that sees a lot of students) will have to the last word on what works better, I only know what worked for me (I have no clue whether or not things would be different whether better or worse had I always kept tracers on).

[SPKmes]

Tracers on/off... My gunnery is a shocker...I was trying to get across in my earlier post something that was touched on by...I think mountain man earlier.....having the ability to saddle up on your opponent is where the focus needs to be in this particular OP's case as he finds that his initial hits are not closing the deal and then the requirement to duel is necessary and from what I read into it is, his shortfall...yes getting guns right is important but being able to hold the advantage to kill is also...not all planes have killer cannon rounds to administer immediate destruction.  

As I have said my gunnery is shocking(yes ink ....worse than yours) however a good percentage of my shots are D600 deflection shots...I get the odd snap shot. What I have found is that unless I can fight and get the situation under my control through maneuvering I am not about to win the fight, and when I do push the shot and try too hard I put myself at the disadvantage. Working on this I still have a bad hit percentage but it is getting better (except the last three tours where nearly all has gone to the pack). I have had to revert back to what I am saying here...fight the fight and out fly your opponent first.... gunnery is something that comes along with it, I believe, and sometimes ..for me that is, it's on and others it's not..... still waiting for the Zen.

This is different I suppose for BnZ style attack...but I suck at that so until my gunnery improves I will always end up dancing.

This is my findings and how I have had to counter my shortfalls...I still have many and constantly try to improve my abilities, it is long and hard I have found but also find I am evolving even though I feel at times that there is no improvement.    

[mtnman]

"Leading with your tracers"  is a term I borrowed from Ack-Ack's post, and then saw in yours as well.  In my mind, it isn't an accurate statement, but I just "went with the flow".

In my mind, what should be happening is that a shot solution should be achieved, and a shot fired.  If it hits, great.  If not, you should use the information gained by the miss, shown to you by the tracers, and adjust for the next shot.

If your goal in shooting is to hit your target (which, for me at least, isn't always the case) each attempt should be your "best" effort.  

You're not actually using tracers to "lead" your target.  

You're using them to have factual knowledge of where your miss went, so that on your next attempt you can correct any perceived error.  In that respect, information gained by missing is actually valuable, if not immediately useful.

boomerlu, not to nit-pick, and no offense meant, but what is your experience level in the aerial gunnery/flight sim "world".  I see only two months worth of stats, and from what I'm seeing your gun accuracy hasn't reached the "done learning, time to use what I've learned" level (neither has mine, btw).  A lot can skew those numbers though, so I don't want to attach more weight to them than they deserve...  As a comparison, the OP has a hit% only about 1% lower than yours...

Either way, it's a great discussion!  I'm not trying to discredit or argue with you- it's great to share the information we can, and keep a stimulating discussion going...

The "instinct" information wasn't meant to debate courtship behavior, but rather to point out an inaccurate use of terms/concepts.  Fortunately, our shooting isn't instinctive.  Because it's learned, it can be improved with a concerted effort.  If we'd inherited faulty instincts, things would be much more difficult...

[mtnman]

Tracers on/off... My gunnery is a shocker...I was trying to get across in my earlier post something that was touched on by...I think mountain man earlier.....having the ability to saddle up on your opponent is where the focus needs to be in this particular OP's case as he finds that his initial hits are not closing the deal and then the requirement to duel is necessary and from what I read into it is, his shortfall...yes getting guns right is important but being able to hold the advantage to kill is also...not all planes have killer cannon rounds to administer immediate destruction.  

As I have said my gunnery is shocking(yes ink ....worse than yours) however a good percentage of my shots are D600 deflection shots...I get the odd snap shot. What I have found is that unless I can fight and get the situation under my control through maneuvering I am not about to win the fight, and when I do push the shot and try too hard I put myself at the disadvantage. Working on this I still have a bad hit percentage but it is getting better (except the last three tours where nearly all has gone to the pack). I have had to revert back to what I am saying here...fight the fight and out fly your opponent first.... gunnery is something that comes along with it, I believe, and sometimes ..for me that is, it's on and others it's not..... still waiting for the Zen.

This is different I suppose for BnZ style attack...but I suck at that so until my gunnery improves I will always end up dancing.

This is my findings and how I have had to counter my shortfalls...I still have many and constantly try to improve my abilities, it is long and hard I have found but also find I am evolving even though I feel at times that there is no improvement.    

That's true, for the most part.  But in the end, to "seal the deal" you need to be able to hit what you're shooting at...  Jumping from 3% to 12% means it takes 1/4 the time to deliver a killing amount of damage.  That's more significant than it sounds.  It means fights end quicker, and aren't as SA expensive.  It means more missed snapshot opportunities result in hits, and kills.  In the often-times several-on-one world of the MA's, it means you can rapidly improve the odds.  It means hits, where misses would result in unnecessary E-expense.

I credit my improved gunnery to a huge portion of my improved survivability in the game...

[SPKmes]

believe me, I want to end things quicker...i often find I get out numbered purely due to the fact that I can't close the deal fast enough. I have now learnt to deal with that by out maneuvering and taking it to the ground to get some proxies hahaha... Who needs guns anyway 

[boomerlu]

"Leading with your tracers"  is a term I borrowed from Ack-Ack's post, and then saw in yours as well.  In my mind, it isn't an accurate statement, but I just "went with the flow".

In my mind, what should be happening is that a shot solution should be achieved, and a shot fired.  If it hits, great.  If not, you should use the information gained by the miss, shown to you by the tracers, and adjust for the next shot.

If your goal in shooting is to hit your target (which, for me at least, isn't always the case) each attempt should be your "best" effort.  

Right, purely psychological again. When I had tracers on I was not putting in my "best effort" on each attempt.

boomerlu, not to nit-pick, and no offense meant, but what is your experience level in the aerial gunnery/flight sim "world".  I see only two months worth of stats, and from what I'm seeing your gun accuracy hasn't reached the "done learning, time to use what I've learned" level (neither has mine, btw).

It depends. I've only flown AH for two months. I'm 22, I took a VERY long hiatus from flight/space sims (roughly from the ages of 12-22). Before then I had plenty of experience. Sure I was a kid, but the concept of lead gunnery is something that's been ingrained in my mind from an early age. Only the particulars change (especially bullet drop - this is something that's relatively new to me as it wasn't modeled as well in the olden sims and not modeled at all in space sims).

My stats: sure they suck. I'm not done learning. But you should have seen me BEFORE I had tracers off. Again, I did not put my "best" into each attempt. That's the critical thing, and that's what I think is meant by "leading with your tracers" - not flying the best pass possible because you know you'll get feedback and adjust from there.

The two-three weeks of learning I had before I turned tracers off was not enough to justify having them permanently off, as I'm finding now. But it was enough to force me to do my best on each firing pass, a behavior that I'll carry with me going forward and continuing to learn.

The "instinct" information wasn't meant to debate courtship behavior, but rather to point out an inaccurate use of terms/concepts.  Fortunately, our shooting isn't instinctive.  Because it's learned, it can be improved with a concerted effort.  If we'd inherited faulty instincts, things would be much more difficult...

No offense either, but I find it strange you corrected my use of "instinct" but went with the flow on "leading with your tracers." It would have made more sense the other way around.

Either way, it's a great discussion!  I'm not trying to discredit or argue with you- it's great to share the information we can, and keep a stimulating discussion going...

It's why I enjoy talking to you and the other trainers I've been in contact with so far. Even though our debates may look heated from the outside, we know we're just presenting a point and that either side can come around if it's convincing.

[boomerlu]

That's true, for the most part.  But in the end, to "seal the deal" you need to be able to hit what you're shooting at...  Jumping from 3% to 12% means it takes 1/4 the time to deliver a killing amount of damage.  That's more significant than it sounds.  It means fights end quicker, and aren't as SA expensive.  It means more missed snapshot opportunities result in hits, and kills.  In the often-times several-on-one world of the MA's, it means you can rapidly improve the odds.  It means hits, where misses would result in unnecessary E-expense.

Could not agree more. Because I fly mostly BnZ fighters, I often find that I only get a few snapshot opportunities before I'm forced to break off lest I lose my energy advantage and fall prey to a better turner.