Why Does the F6F Have a Violent Flick Stall

[funked]

By all accounts this was a very easy handling plane at high angles of attack.  But it has a vicious stall in this game.  No stall horn and it rolls suddenly 45 degrees.  This does not jive with pilot accounts of this type.  It's more like something one would expect from a 190 or an F4U, but neither of those planes behaves this way in AH.

I will not fly it any more.  Let me know if they fix it.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-24-2001).]

[Yeager]

"Use the FlickStall Luke".......

[Jimdandy]

I knew a man that flew F4U's and F6F's in WWII in the Marines. He preferred the F6F. He said it was very easy to fly and you could horse it around with out having to worry as much about losing it. Just what he said. If that directly relates to the stall I'm not sure. I would think that it should be forgiving.

[funked]

From America's Hundred Thousand:

 

For accelerated stalls, as in turning flight, some stall warning was afforded by mild buffeting of the whole airplane.  Initially the aircraft pitched out of the turn, then pitched into it, also going through a mild rolling oscillation.  The final roll-off was mild and easily controlled.  Recovery from rolling out of the turn was quickly effected by releasing back pressure on the stick.

There is also a section in AHT on the spin behavior and it is actually very close to what I have observed in AH.  So WTG HTC on that aspect.  But I don't think the accelerated stalls are correct.

[flakbait]

Check my thread "F6F and F4U flight models switched?" for info about this. It seems both the spin and stall models of each plane were swaped. I posted film in there of spins and stalls.


Flight model thread

P-38 stall and spin film


-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
"During the Battle of Britain the question 'fighter or fighter-bomber?'
had been decided once and for all: The fighter can only be used as a bomb carrier
with lasting effect when sufficient air superiority has been won." Adolph Galland
 

[Lephturn]

Yep, it does seem to have a very nasty stall.  I really don't know enough about it's real performance to discuss if something is wrong; however, I have found that nasty stall characteristic has been helping me learn how to use the Kitty the way it should be used.

The Kitty is a really good E fighter!  Having to keep my speed up to avoid that nasty stall has forced me to treat my Kitty right and keep her fed well with E.  Keep her fast and treat her right and she'll reward you with many kills.

Still, it would be nice to be able to push her a little harder when the fight degenerates to a stall-speed turning battle skimming the wave tops.

Kitty purrs, but if you stall her she'll demonstrate that she has claws.  

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[Citabria]

p-38 should be the king docile stalls.
f6f5 should be one of the most docile single engine fighters.

n1k2 with its vaunted 2000000000hp ufo engine and measley 5000lb weight should be quite violent in power on stall behavior.

the stall/spin modelling code needs work but HT knows this so I guess it's very low on the to do list since its one of the most perplexing area's of flight model programming.

[Jimdandy]

 

Originally posted by Citabria:
p-38 should be the king docile stalls.
f6f5 should be one of the most docile single engine fighters.

n1k2 with its vaunted 2000000000hp ufo engine and measley 5000lb weight should be quite violent in power on stall behavior.

the stall/spin modelling code needs work but HT knows this so I guess it's very low on the to do list since its one of the most perplexing area's of flight model programming.

Wait stop he didn't mean it! LOL! Cit your going for another 100+ responses aren't you. LOL  

[Tac]

Yes.. and the n1k and p-38 models are switched too       (heeheee)

F6f drivers, welcome to the life of the P-38 driver and their BS stall, spin&swim  

[SFRT - Frenchy]

I noticed this stall, first time i said:what the?"

After some fights, i learned to identify it. For whatever reason, whenu are not close from stall but pulling some Gs around 150, u feel the fly straight while u keep pulling the stick for no effect. Then if u insist, "snap aie aie kaboom".

I noticed that, if u let go the stick and gently pull back on jocke again, then u "pass this phase" and can go all the way to the deep stall with complete and easy control.

I like it, first because it separates the "pull and shoot" dweebs from the plane (contrary to niki/zeke and spit), and also because this "feel of frozen stick" gives a warning before the snap and thus allow to avoid it (contrary to some other fighters who "bzzzzzz zip uh oh ah scouick".

[john9001]

i agree with frenchy, learn to fly the plane
i do "turn & burn" in lots of different planes, and i can feel the onset of stall,
( stick response gets mushy )time to unload and get some lift back into them wings
44MAG

[TheWobble]

Yup, I fly the F6f almost exclusivly both as fighter and attack, and many times i have been in a turn low to water when all the sudden the damn thing just flips over and im swimming, no stall or anything just sploosh.

[wells]

Funked,

The F6f uses the same airfoil series as the F4u and Fw-190, neither of the 2 Navy planes had any washout built in.  I suspect it's probably CG related.  One test might be to start from some cruise condition, preferably with neutral elevator trim input (if possible) and then do one of 2 things.  Either increase power to full or pull power off.  Then plot the path of the aircraft through it's oscillations.  If the F6f had a gentle stall, it probably had a conservative CG location and was more stable in pitch in that it would react more strongly to changes in power or speed.

[funked]

Frenchy and 44Mag, I'm sure I can learn to fly it.  I could go toe to toe with anybody in the old WB Fw 190A which was twitchier than anything we have here.  

But this is not the Help and Training forum.  I am not asking for piloting advice.  The point is that near the stall this was one of the easiest-to-fly fighters of WW2 but somehow in our game this is not true.

[MiG Eater]

I stopped flying the F6F shortly after it was released because of the flick stall.  I noticed it most when rolling with the stall horn buzzing.  This would happen at slow speed as well as high speed maneuvering.  It felt as though the "up" aileron acted like a partial or full span spoiler rather than an aileron.  (similar to the lateral control system in a P-61 or even the F-4 Phantom and F-14 Tomcat).  I also found when rolling the airplane at low speed (during flat carrier approaches), I experienced an increase in descent rate as long as left or right stick input was left in.  Neutralizing the roll control input in either level or banked flight arrested the increased descent rate.

I didn't fly the F6F enough to obtain substantial numerical data and was only left with the above impressions.

MiG