Chuck Yeager was a HOer

[Motherland]

If you start maneuvering before the merge, not only can he not hit you in a HO but you have a positional advantage on the guy. Usually people who come at you firing are pretty easy to kill for this reason.

[WMLute]

2. nor does the HOer nessecarily loose angles post-HO. These are two myths.

I would disagree with this statement.

If your opponent is going for the HO you can control the first and usually the second move they make.  The "Ho-e", if they know what they are doing, dictates the opening positions of both planes.  They have the luxury of knowing what their opponent is going to try to do and have a large degree of controll of it.

After the merge you should have a positional advantage by using their merge choice against them.  If your opponent attempts to maneuver you have control over that move as well.  If you know what you are doing, and they maneuver after the failed HO attempt, you control their next move.

HUGE advantage to be able to dictate the 1st 2 moves your opponent makes.

(of course you have situations when you are allready in a fight and out of E or position so this might not be possible.  I am discussing a typical merge in the MA where one guy is hell bent on shooting you in the face)

[thorsim]

the good pilot won't let you HO them in that situation, that is how you tell ...

I would just like to find out how you can tell who in the game are the good sticks and who are the new ones to the game when you are coming in head to head? I just want to get this HOing thing straight in my head.  

as you beat somebody down to the point of desperation, then the desperation shot becomes more and more likely
if you get killed in a HO from another player who has run out of other options, well ...
a) can you really blame them
b) you should have killed them sooner or disengaged as you has the superiority ...
c) you gave up the shot that killed you so it is your fault you died.

like the OP stated 12 pages ago, if you get killed HO or not, it is time to figure out what went wrong and why.

do not cry, as that is another defeat for you, and that attitude will prevent your betterment much more than any tendency to HO ever would.
  

(of course you have situations when you are allready in a fight and out of E or position so this might not be possible.  I am discussing a typical merge in the MA where one guy is hell bent on shooting you in the face)

[CAP1]

no sir i am expressing my frustration with those who complain about the HO ...

i am sick of those who fly the top turn-fighters trolling around threads like these expressing their POV on what constitutes "good" or "bad" ACM and how doing anything differently then they do is somehow "less"

you wanna prove your a BAVFP then take the worst fighters in the game and go kick butt, until then your just another loud mouth turntard who thinks he is good because he flies to the assets of his plane and thinks others are bad because they fly to the assets of their plane.  

my point is if you got killed then you got beat "." take it like a man and quit expressing how the other guy killed you "wrong" to sooth your little ego.  you should look at the HO as another maneuver that must be countered and until you master that it is your skill set that is lacking, not the other guys.  

  

uumm....p38 is not one of the uber turners........

still waitin for an answer btw....and i think others offered too.

[Shuffler]

Good pilot fighting 3 cons... no matter how good you are when 2 or all 3 are doing nothing mpore than trying to Ho.... it's tough. It is also funny as you know it is all they got.... or at least the best they got.

[The Fugitive]

no sir i am expressing my frustration with those who complain about the HO ...

i am sick of those who fly the top turn-fighters trolling around threads like these expressing their POV on what constitutes "good" or "bad" ACM and how doing anything differently then they do is somehow "less"

you wanna prove your a BAVFP then take the worst fighters in the game and go kick butt, until then your just another loud mouth turntard who thinks he is good because he flies to the assets of his plane and thinks others are bad because they fly to the assets of their plane.  

my point is if you got killed then you got beat "." take it like a man and quit expressing how the other guy killed you "wrong" to sooth your little ego.  you should look at the HO as another maneuver that must be countered and until you master that it is your skill set that is lacking, not the other guys.  

  

I should know better than to try and have a discussion with a wall (unmovable, dumb as a brick, take your pick)  BUUUUUUUT, this is where the communication break down is. You look at the game as "living or dieing" the "fighters" look at the game as the challenge of the fight... who can get the most out of their plane, who can turn disadvantage to advantage, who can maneuver for that gun solution.

Most of the people here who complain about the HO fly almost all of the planes. Steves in a pony, Cap is in a 38, me I fly ponies, 109s, 190s P47, and spits or zeros for base defense. You on the other hand only fly 190s, and only seem to use the old BnZ move.... one pass and haul arnold. Because you seem to be blind to other options in your bird of choice you feel you must defend one of the few shots you can set up.

You want to BnZ, thats fine, you want to cherry pick others who are engaged, thats fine. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play. I am telling you your missing out on a lot that is still available. Learn to push the limits of your plane of choice, learn to fight.

Well I have a problem with all this talk about HOing. I have not log that many hours in the air to be good at dogfighting but I have seen hoing and I've done hoing. But not be a good fighter jock yet when I see a dot out there or a icon I start heading towards it. He see me trying to get on hos six and so it turns out we are coming head to head. But with all the talk on here and 200 I try and not HO. But when I'm coming head to head with someone I mostly wait and see if the other guy will start shooting. If he does I shoot back. I've try to turn so it is not head to head and then they get on my six or we both turn and hit each other. Then it is how do you now who is coming at you head to head? How do you now if it is a great stick coming at you that wants to dogfight or just a new stick that will take you down whatever way he can! And if one of the many great sticks that are in this game get on my six I'm down in seconds. That is again from me not having log enough flight time. I would just like to find out how you can tell who in the game are the good sticks and who are the new ones to the game when you are coming in head to head? I just want to get this HOing thing straight in my head.  

This is one of those things that new players don't learn up front. Sure you start out by heading toward the dot, but as you close and you see that the enemy plane is going to attack/engage.... usually 2-3k out... is when you start to maneuver. From that far out you can see which way they are going. You can break in one direction to force them to turn tighter and blow E to keep on you, or you could lure them in by turning in a sweeping turn to get them on your tail and force an overshoot. The fight starts BEFORE the merge.

Thats what is the difference between the DA fights and the MA fights. DA is a dance with set moves, who ever does the first 3 the best usually wins the fight. The MA on the other hand has more variables than you could count. For every move there are a bunch of counters depending on what the plane is, the alt, the friends and foes in the area all kinds of things. This is why the "fighters" like the MA instead of the DA, more of a challenge.

[BnZs]

If you start maneuvering before the merge, not only can he not hit you in a HO but you have a positional advantage on the guy. Usually people who come at you firing are pretty easy to kill for this reason.

If you try an early turn, you can gain and immediate angles advantage. Or be shot in the belly. If you turn early and dump alot of speed, you can actually end up on someone's six so quickly that they think you hacked. BUT, a savvy opponent will realize what you did, that he now has a considerable E advantage, and zoom up.

[Motherland]

If you try an early turn, you can gain and immediate angles advantage. Or be shot in the belly.

Yeah if you break 200 yards in front of him like an idiot
Setting up the turn 1.5-2.0k in front I've never been hit.

If you turn early and dump alot of speed, you can actually end up on someone's six so quickly that they think you hacked. BUT, a savvy opponent will realize what you did, that he now has a considerable E advantage, and zoom up.

Yeah, because flat-turning is the only way to maneuver before the merge.

[BnZs]

One could just as easily say that knowing your opponent will attempt to AVOID the HO lets you dictate their behavior.

Yes Lute, I know you are discussing a typical MA HOer who is a not a good pilot, who will merge with you nose-down trying to HO when you get under him (advantage to you right off the bat), fails to control his speed turning back into you as you come around on him (further advantage to you) and, etc. This has everything to do with them not flying good merge tactics and ACM and nothing at all to do with whether taking a shot on the merge puts one at a disadvantage. It doesn't.

Let us imagine that you meet someone co-e at 5K feet. Typical opening move is get lower to get turning room to do a lead-turn with an Immelman. A savvy opponent is going to neutralize that by getting just as low, or lower himself, until the limiting factor is the deck. Now what? You have two planes coming essentially towards each other, either man may realistically try a HO if he chooses. Horizontal separation, same deal, no one savvy is going to let you get turning room on them. Two savvy pilot's flying to disallow the opponent any angles or turning room on the merge results in the sort of close nose-to-nose pass where HOing is supremely possible.

That's not even speaking of HOing on the remerge. I've fought many duels against good pilots in same plane situations. Not only would HOing be possible on the initial merge, but often enough, in closely matched duels with equal performing planes, there are many subsequent remerges where it would be possible to destroy each another with a head-to-head firing pass. It is often the case that only after both pilots ignore quite a few such passes that one party gains a slight advantage that allows eventual conversion to a valid shooting solution where the opposition has no chance of  getting a shot in return.

The only disadvantage of HOing is that from an equal merge a determined opponent  can HO you right back, and if EVERYBODY did it, all fights from equal merges would be rather un-inspiring affairs where victory was decided by a coin toss and where BOTH planes were supremely likely to do go down. This realization is why it is frowned upon.

I would disagree with this statement.

If your opponent is going for the HO you can control the first and usually the second move they make.  The "Ho-e", if they know what they are doing, dictates the opening positions of both planes.  They have the luxury of knowing what their opponent is going to try to do and have a large degree of controll of it.

After the merge you should have a positional advantage by using their merge choice against them.  If your opponent attempts to maneuver you have control over that move as well.  If you know what you are doing, and they maneuver after the failed HO attempt, you control their next move.

HUGE advantage to be able to dictate the 1st 2 moves your opponent makes.

(of course you have situations when you are allready in a fight and out of E or position so this might not be possible.  I am discussing a typical merge in the MA where one guy is hell bent on shooting you in the face)

[BnZs]

Setting up the turn 1.5-2.0k in front I've never been hit.

Setting up the turn early means the opponent has time to take your separation away and convert it to a neutral, more or less head-on merge again. The factor you are not considering is that those who are savvy enough to understand merging don't usually WANT to HO. If they did, they could without loosing advantage, except for the slight problem of you being able to HO them right back.

[WMLute]

We are dealing with a HO'r here so you actually have a few more "tricks" to use.

In your scenario where both are trying to get under the other, bear in mind the HO'r is pulling for a shot.

One simple trick is to use torque against them.

Say a HO'r is in a Spit.  (gasp!)

You want to position yourself to their right (your left) on the merge.  You WANT them pulling hard right to get the Ho shot on you.  When they miss, they are in a hard right, nose down (hopefully) turn.  What are they gonna do if they decide to maneuver?

They are not going to suddenly change their vector, they are going to continue with their maneuver to the right.

So you now have them pulling a had right hand turn which is to your advantage.

Your merge side should be dictated by their torque.  Vs. a Tempest I would be doing this on the right hand side.

Their next move is also dictated by you.  But I am not gonna give away ALL my "secrets" so I will quit posting.

[BiPoLaR]

ho me your dead the next turn. you open yourself up to so many things when you are hell bent on hoing.
(unless the usual 15 v 1horde is all hoing me)

[cattb]

We are dealing with a HO'r here so you actually have a few more "tricks" to use.

In your scenario where both are trying to get under the other, bear in mind the HO'r is pulling for a shot.

One simple trick is to use torque against them.

Say a HO'r is in a Spit.  (gasp!)

You want to position yourself to their right (your left) on the merge.  You WANT them pulling hard right to get the Ho shot on you.  When they miss, they are in a hard right, nose down (hopefully) turn.  What are they gonna do if they decide to maneuver?

They are not going to suddenly change their vector, they are going to continue with their maneuver to the right.

So you now have them pulling a had right hand turn which is to your advantage.

Your merge side should be dictated by their torque.  Vs. a Tempest I would be doing this on the right hand side.

Their next move is also dictated by you.  But I am not gonna give away ALL my "secrets" so I will quit posting.

nice post Thanks Lute

[Shuffler]

just read here:

Chuck Yeager: I was in a dog-fight with three 190s, and I got hit head-on with a 20 mm cannon, and the prop came off the airplane, part of the wing, the canopy, and it caught on fire. So me and the airplane parted company. That's the way it happens. You bail out, you free fall in your parachute, and then when you get down to within three or four thousand feet of the ground, you pull the ripcord, the parachute pops and you land. That's about the way it happens. I picked up a few wounds. I had a couple slugs in one of my legs. I had some 20 mm fragments in my hands and a couple cuts on my head, but they were minor. So it didn't make much difference. ............

http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/yea0int-4

i say, in RL 1 vs 3 a HO happend, now ask yourself: is he a bad pilot?

intresting part is, HE didnt complains about it, because HE know it was war, and at war there is no poor gameplay, its alive or dead!

Interesting quote..... Says "I got hit head-on with a 20mm". Never says he was shooting. The german pilot with 2 wingies... what was he thinking.... he was not so hot a pilot.


Even so.... if your in a game based on combat, why not try to fight instead. Unlike real life where it's a one player show and you have to do whatever it takes to survive, here we always survive and even get a new plane for more practice to get better.


I suggest folks who always bring up real life be sure that they are in a squad that participated in real life and fly only the planes that squad flew in WWII. When your shot down... move on to another game cause here your dead.

[cattb]

I suggest folks who always bring up real life be sure that they are in a squad that participated in real life and fly only the planes that squad flew in WWII. When your shot down... move on to another game cause here your dead.

could have a real revolver some how intergrated with the game, the revolver is pointed at the head of the person playing, when they are shot down and KIA the gun goes off.