ho'ing and ramming

[CAP1]

Intentional ramming is near impossible, but Ho'ing is another story.  This is going to turn into...
(Image removed from quote.)

dude......on one hand, these pics you come up with? funny as heck!!
on the other hand? it's a little scary that you have so many of em. 

[ACE]

lol ack ack

[LCCajun]

About the only HO I can't stand is on the first intial merge. I don't understand why someone would want to HO instead of actually fighting to get on their enemy's six, but hey who am I to judge how ppl want to fly.

[groundfeeder]

You are incorrect, P-38 was maneuverable at all altitudes, especially in the thicker air at lower altitudes.  Read a book and hopefully you'll find out for yourself.


ack-ack

I have read a book or two in my time!!!! in comparison to the enemy aircraft THEY were less maneuverable up high giving the 38 the advantage it was when they got low the other aircraft strength's outweighed their weakness namely turning. the germans just didn't go up and chase them and kept alot of their raids low to mid teens to be able to deal with the 38 easier. if a few got loose in a enemy bomber formation they would decimate the group.

[Ack-Ack]

I have read a book or two in my time!!!! in comparison to the enemy aircraft THEY were less maneuverable up high giving the 38 the advantage it was when they got low the other aircraft strength's outweighed their weakness namely turning. the germans just didn't go up and chase them and kept alot of their raids low to mid teens to be able to deal with the 38 easier. if a few got loose in a enemy bomber formation they would decimate the group.

This is from an old thread discussion on flaps from about 5 years ago.  One of our resident historians (CorkyJr/Guppy) posted these AAR reports from P-38 pilots that were bounced by higher German fighters and what ensued was a knock down, turn fight on the deck.  If you notice in the report, one of the P-38 still had his 500 pound bombs.

Glad you asked cause I went hunting and found what I was looking for

From combat reports of the 370th FG in the summer of 44.  They would have been flying P38J-10s and 15s not retrofitted with dive flaps and power assisted controls at the time. This would be what the AH P38J represents. They operated in the ground attack role and got jumped many times, and in these instances were outnumbered and the last two at least, in a furball down low.

Note in the reports, the mention of flap use.  Also note that the 370th had come to England having trained on the P47 and learned the 38 on the fly prior to D-Day so these were not high time 38 drivers.

Also be sure and note what the last report says at the end.  He sounds like he'd fit right in to the AH 38 drivers world

Dan/CorkyJr
Lt.Richard Berry  370th Combat report  June 14, 1944

“I was leading Yellow flight and we had completed our mission and were returning home at 3000 feet.  We had lost our flight leader in clouds and haze after an identification pass at friendly A/C.  We had just gone on instruments and were about to enter the overcast when we were bounced from 4 O’Clock by four Me 109s which had just broken out of the overcast.  Yellow 2 called for me to break right into the E/A.  The entire flight broke and I found myself after a half-turn of a Lufberry, turning inside the lead E/A.  I fired a four second burst from 200 yards at approximately 20 degrees deflection and observed strikes on the engine.  The E/A started to smoke and leveled off.  I fell into trail behind him and fired a 6-second burst at 0 Degrees deflection and again observed strikes, this time on the fuselage and right wing root.  Fire broke out and enveloped the entire right wing root as the E/A disappeared into cloud.  I did not follow him because I was low on fuel.  The other E/A disappeared into the clouds after the initial break.  We all used our maneuver flaps and had no difficulty in out turning the E/A.  I saw no one bail out from the plane I hit and in my opinion the pilot was hit and at least wounded on my first burst because he leveled off and flew at a very slight climb.”


Captain Paul Sabo, 370th FG  July 31, 1944

“I was leading Blue Flight circling the target area giving Red Flight Top Cover as they were dive bombing the target.  Circling above us at about 12,000 feet were 12 Me 109s.  I kept watching them; then 8 of them half rolled and got behind my flight.  I gave the order to jettison our bombs and break.  I dropped flaps and started in a tight Lufberry.  When I had completed one turn I was alone, and at that time I saw an Me 109 in a vertical turn coming in front of me so I started firing at him at a 90 degree deflection shot.  He flew right into the pattern and I saw strikes on him from nose to tail.  The plane seemed to shudder and slow down.  I was about 200 yards when I started to fire.  The Me 109 then made a 90 degree turn to the left and started to climb as if he was going to loop.  I followed him, closing to about 100 yards, fired and saw strikes all over his canopy, fuselage and tail surfaces.  As he was about at the top of his loop and almost on his back, I saw what looked like his canopy come off, as the plane seemed to hang there.  It looked like I had wounded the pilot during the first 90 degree deflection shot and he was rolling it over on his back to jettison his canopy and bail out.

About that time I looked in my rear view mirror and saw an Me 109 on my tail.  I dropped flaps and turned into him. He half rolled and went down.  As I rolled out I saw an Me 109 coming down in front of me.  I opened up again and gave him a 90-degree deflection shot.    He ran into my pattern and I saw strikes all over the plane.  I followed him and kept firing from directly behind him, seeing strikes on his tail surfaces.  Then he proceeded to go down in a wild dive from about 5000 feet.  I looked back in my mirror again, because all during this time I was still alone.  My flight had left me.  I saw another Me 109 coming in on my tail. I dropped flaps, leveled out and turned into him. He automatically went into a steep climb and I lost him in the sun.  When I looked I saw no more enemy and called my Flight to join me.”


Lt. Royal Madden  from the same Flight and same fight, July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left.  I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me.  I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet.  This boy was good and he had me plenty worried  as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection.  I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst.  There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off.  He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home.  Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped.  As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”

Enjoy.

ack-ack

[Shuffler]

The 38 was very maneuverable for its size. It was very nimble low and slow partially due to its' lack of torque from the contra-rotating props.

[groundfeeder]

ok ack ack im not going to quote the entire article AS I SAID before in GENERAL the p-38 would not outturn SOME german aircraft and almost none of the pacific theater aircraft the boom and zoom was the prefered role LOOK IT UP

[VonMessa]

dude......on one hand, these pics you come up with? funny as heck!!
on the other hand? it's a little scary that you have so many of em.  

Too much spare time + ownership of a Printing shop = Crazy Pics




Printing is my trade........
I am a printer
My name is Way, the Printer.
I arrange,  design, and sell printings.................

[CAP1]

ok ack ack im not going to quote the entire article AS I SAID before in GENERAL the p-38 would not outturn SOME german aircraft and almost none of the pacific theater aircraft the boom and zoom was the prefered role LOOK IT UP

actually, in the PAC,  believe it was more of an "E" fight that was prefered, as opposed to a BnZ fight.

[Shuffler]

He keeps saying look it up. We have a very nice library on 38s. We have looked it up. Would be interesting if ground would post what he has been reading. It's possible he just misread or misunderstood what he read.

[Masherbrum]

actually, in the PAC,  believe it was more of an "E" fight that was prefered, as opposed to a BnZ fight.

Shhhh CAP.   He's the "expert".   Are you calling shenanigans on his posts?!!!  If so, be prepared to be thrown on the rack, then drawn and quartered.    

[Masherbrum]

He keeps saying look it up. We have a very nice library on 38s. We have looked it up. Would be interesting if ground would post what he has been reading. It's possible he just misread or misunderstood what he read.

Oh no, see NOW YOU'VE GONE AND DONE DID IT!!!!!! 

[ACE]

The 38 was a great plane.  i don't think it had much trouble outturning german planes.

[Ack-Ack]

ok ack ack im not going to quote the entire article AS I SAID before in GENERAL the p-38 would not outturn SOME german aircraft and almost none of the pacific theater aircraft the boom and zoom was the prefered role LOOK IT UP

You made the claim that the P-38 was not maneuverable at low altitudes and the AAR reports I posted refute that claim.  Don't try and change the argument when I showed you to be incorrect.

Trust me, there is nothing you can tell me about the P-38 that I already don't know.  However, I can tell you plenty about the P-38 that you don't know.


ack-ack

[CAP1]

Shhhh CAP.   He's the "expert".   Are you calling shenanigans on his posts?!!!  If so, be prepared to be thrown on the rack, then drawn and quartered.    

HHMM....THE RACK? sounds like fun!

actually i phrased it as i did, hoping that the OP will go read up, and he'll learn the difference. it seems most people don't know the difference