Jan 24 1944 - P-51B enters service? - Request for Apache!!!

[Chalenge]

Time magazine article of Jan 24 1944: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,803055,00.html

First named the P-51 Apache, it was shipped to Britain in 1941.

Later the Mustang proved itself a magnificent low-level strafer and locomotive buster. It was fast, agile and an "honest" aircraft (i.e., with no eccentric handling traits). One P-51 set a record for ruggedness when it flew home with a yard of starboard wing shot off, the port wing half buckled and the fuselage bent and torn from collision with a tree. The U.S. noted all this and brought out its own slightly modified version of the plane as the A36 Invader, which did mighty work as a dive and glide bomber and ground-support plane in Sicily.

Note: The A36 too was factory named Apache and officially named Mustang by the Army. Only servicemen in the field referred to it as Invader so we know where this reporter got his information on the A36.

P-51-1NA
Allison engine V-1710-39 (1120 BHP at takeoff and 1220 BHP at 10500 feet)
Fuel - 100 Octane 180 gallons
Basic weight 6450 lbs max gross weight 9000 lbs
Armament - 4 20mm cannons (100 lbs ea) 125 rds per gun (5 rds and linkages = 3 lbs)
Combat range 400 miles

[Karnak]

Apache did not have four 20mm cannons.  It had six .50 cals, two under the nose and four in the wings.

[Chalenge]

You are not paying attention Karnak and we have discussed this before. Try to keep up.

[ACE]

Nice plane

[Strip]

Apache did not have four 20mm cannons.  It had six .50 cals, two under the nose and four in the wings.

Wrong.....even Wiki gets that one right.

[vonKrimm]

Must have now!  Please?

[AWwrgwy]

Wrong.....even Wiki gets that one right.

Wrong, wrong.  Apache had 6-.50's.  2 in each wing and 2 beneath the nose. 

And, the official USAAF name was "Invader".

Bring on the A-36.


wrongway

[Chalenge]

And, the official USAAF name was "Invader".

As much as I want to see an A36 also you are mistaken about this. The A-26 was the USAAF Invader.

The factory plan name for all of the NA-73 and NA-91 (and descendants) was always Apache. The A-36 has come to be known as the A-36 Apache because of that and because pilots trained to fly the A-36 were introduced to the plane as the 'Apache' but at some time between training and the time it was in service at the front a few months it became known as the Mustang.

The P-51 (without sub-designation) was always the Apache (until July 1942). The same plane in British service was called the Mustang.

[TheZohan]

Armament
Armament varied throughout the life of the Mustang. Initial versions were fitted with 6 x 12.7mm machine guns - two in the nose and four in the wings. A battery of 4 x 20mm cannons, which made it ideal in the ground attack role, or the lighter armament load of 4 x 12.7mm machine guns (two to a wing) for tactical reconnaissance were also alternatives. Eventually, the legendary D-models would introduce the potent array of 6 x 12.7mm machine guns (three to a wing) with a simplified feed mechanism to cut down on weapon jamming. Underwing bomb racks and rocket pylons increased potency of the platform as well. These could be deleted in favor of fuel drop tanks for improved range on those long bomber escort sorties.


http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=77


pic of A36 with 4 x 20mm's

http://www.theospark.net/2009/01/p-51-mustang-california-1942.html


model by model of P-51 / A-36

Mustang Mk IA: Supplied to the Royal Air Force (RAF).2,4 Had cannons for armament.4 Originally called Apache by the United States Army Air Force.4
A-36A: Ground attack.2,3 Had wing bomb shackles.2,3 Had four 20 mm cannons in the wings.3

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/aircraft/fighter/north-american-p-51-mustang.asp


A second British contract called for 300 more (NA-83) Mustang Mk.I fighters. In September 1940, 150 aircraft, designated NA-91 by North American, were ordered under the Lend/Lease program. These were designated by the USAAF as P-51 and initially named Apache, although this was soon dropped and the RAF name, Mustang, adopted instead. The British designated this model as Mustang Mk.IA. The Mustang Mk IA was identical to the Mustang Mk I except that the wing-mounted machine guns were removed and replaced with four long-barrelled 20 mm (.79 in) Hispano Mk II cannon.


http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/p51.htm

[Ack-Ack]

As much as I want to see an A36 also you are mistaken about this. The A-26 was the USAAF Invader.

The A-36A was briefly referred to as the A-36 during the Invasion of Sicily to differentiate itself from the Mustang in press coverage but the USAAF quickly put an end to that when someone with brains realized that doing so would clue the enemy in they were facing a dive bomber version of the Mustang in addition to the name already being given to the A-26 Invader.

There is still some argument as to whether the official name was Apache (which was the official name of the early P-51) or whether the official name was Mustang.  When it was first put in operational status, it was given the official name of Apache though it was rarely used and like you mentioned, was later reported to have it's official name changed to Mustang.


ack-ack

[Chalenge]

The ad I posted in the very first post in this topic was the original ad for the P-51 from North American Aviation (1941). I think NAA would know better in 1941 what they called their own plane more so than the re-hashed arguments of wiki-users or History channel viewers of today. If you could find original factory prints of the first NA-73X plans the title block would say 'Project: Apache.'

[Guppy35]

Just another 4 cannon bird thread.

If you are going to do an Allison Mustang, the A36 and the RAF Mustang I, as well as the 4 MG P51 the USAAF used would make far more sense then the few 20mm birds.  The majority of Allison Mustangs were not cannon armed birds.

As for Apache.  From a 1941 kids book.

[Chalenge]

My argument is for the cannon armed P-51 Apache because it was the first 'Mustang' to serve the USAAF (and the British under the Mustang IA designation). The A-36 was not engineered until June of 1942 and did not first fly until October. Since NAA was already running ads for the P-51 as 'Apache' and since it was already in service when the A-36 was still being built...

Anyway Hitech... Whiskey or Scotch just let me know what you prefer! 

[lyric1]

Anyway Hitech... Whiskey or Scotch just let me know what you prefer!  

I think this is his drink of choice & going rate for a possible bribe if I remembered correctly.

http://www.finestwine.com/buy-wine-Cragganmore-12-Years-Whisky-Spirits-0-sb700-6.html

[Guppy35]

This is the one you want