P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.

[CAP1]

Don't both with this clown Cap. By his own admission he is always right, and everyone else is always wrong. Of course the only info we have to back his statements up is his own word. He's just another loud mouth hiding behind a shade, just not worth your time.

i can't help it. it's like that diehard dude in the porsche/corvette thread in the o club. i kinda have to force them to prove themselves wrong...and they eventually do.  

ooo......and as he reads more, you'll notice his replies slow down, as he franticaly searches for information to try to prove he's at least a little right. 

[Anaxogoras]

Don't both with this clown Cap. By his own admission he is always right, and everyone else is always wrong. Of course the only info we have to back his statements up is his own word. He's just another loud mouth hiding behind a shade, just not worth your time.

Fugitive, it might be good to do a little search before you call someone a shade.  Thorsim is listed in the score pages and is a recent Warbirds-->AH transplant.

thorsim 1
fugitive 0

[CAP1]

Fugitive, it might be good to do a little search before you call someone a shade.  Thorsim is listed in the score pages and is a recent Warbirds-->AH transplant.

thorsim 1
fugitive 0

aahh......from what i hear about the flight modeling over there(i've never flown there) that would explain his misinformation.

[CAP1]

sudden silence is deafening./ 

[thorsim]

aahh......from what i hear about the flight modeling over there(i've never flown there) that would explain his misinformation.

actually most comments i have heard over in WB from AH transplants is that it is too hard and they leave ...

although, no offense to anyone, the player base is much smaller there so there are far fewer baby seals to club.

also i do not explore the games beyond real world ACM much so in regards to the relative tricks, i admit i am not so familiar with those.

after flying both it is clear that the builders were the same and i find little real differences in the current products FM wise.  the newest FMs in WB are imo the best i have flown so far in MMOLVAC but there are only 2 of those.

neither set seems to be as well regarded as WB-2.xx (possibly nostalgia) or has as well defined envelopes as AW classic had(just obvious imo).  

i am not sure why and i am not sure where the "accuracy" advantage lies but in regards to the flaps ...

their use in combat was not at all as it is being used in the game and investigations will show anyone who cares to look why.

the structures were not that different type to type and plane to plane in effect or structural limits, they were all designed to handle the same forces and operated under the same effects, no matter what priorities were emphasized in the respective POHs ...

no offense to any one or any product intended just my opinions ...

mostly.

++S++

t

sudden silence is deafening./  

i was away, and will be away most of the weekend, ya'll have fun now ...

 

[CAP1]

actually most comments i have heard over in WB from AH transplants is that it is too hard and they leave ...

although, no offense to anyone, the player base is much smaller there so there are far fewer baby seals to club.

also i do not explore the games beyond real world ACM much so in regards to the relative tricks, i admit i am not so familiar with those.

after flying both it is clear that the builders were the same and i find little real differences in the current products FM wise.  the newest FMs in WB are imo the best i have flown so far in MMOLVAC but there are only 2 of those.

neither set seems to be as well regarded as WB-2.xx (possibly nostalgia) or has as well defined envelopes as AW classic had(just obvious imo).  

i am not sure why and i am not sure where the "accuracy" advantage lies but in regards to the flaps ...

their use in combat was not at all as it is being used in the game and investigations will show anyone who cares to look why.

the structures were not that different type to type and plane to plane in effect or structural limits, they were all designed to handle the same forces and operated under the same effects, no matter what priorities were emphasized in the respective POHs ...

no offense to any one or any product intended just my opinions ...

mostly.

++S++

t

i was away, and will be away most of the weekend, ya'll have fun now ...

 

38's did indeed use flaps in combat. here's a couple AAR reports.

Glad you asked cause I went hunting and found what I was looking for Smiley

From combat reports of the 370th FG in the summer of 44.  They would have been flying P38J-10s and 15s not retrofitted with dive flaps and power assisted controls at the time. This would be what the AH P38J represents. They operated in the ground attack role and got jumped many times, and in these instances were outnumbered and the last two at least, in a furball down low.

Note in the reports, the mention of flap use.  Also note that the 370th had come to England having trained on the P47 and learned the 38 on the fly prior to D-Day so these were not high time 38 drivers.

Also be sure and note what the last report says at the end.  He sounds like he'd fit right in to the AH 38 drivers world Smiley

Dan/CorkyJr
Lt.Richard Berry  370th Combat report  June 14, 1944

“I was leading Yellow flight and we had completed our mission and were returning home at 3000 feet.  We had lost our flight leader in clouds and haze after an identification pass at friendly A/C.  We had just gone on instruments and were about to enter the overcast when we were bounced from 4 O’Clock by four Me 109s which had just broken out of the overcast.  Yellow 2 called for me to break right into the E/A.  The entire flight broke and I found myself after a half-turn of a Lufberry, turning inside the lead E/A.  I fired a four second burst from 200 yards at approximately 20 degrees deflection and observed strikes on the engine.  The E/A started to smoke and leveled off.  I fell into trail behind him and fired a 6-second burst at 0 Degrees deflection and again observed strikes, this time on the fuselage and right wing root.  Fire broke out and enveloped the entire right wing root as the E/A disappeared into cloud.  I did not follow him because I was low on fuel.  The other E/A disappeared into the clouds after the initial break.  We all used our maneuver flaps and had no difficulty in out turning the E/A.  I saw no one bail out from the plane I hit and in my opinion the pilot was hit and at least wounded on my first burst because he leveled off and flew at a very slight climb.”


Captain Paul Sabo, 370th FG  July 31, 1944

“I was leading Blue Flight circling the target area giving Red Flight Top Cover as they were dive bombing the target.  Circling above us at about 12,000 feet were 12 Me 109s.  I kept watching them; then 8 of them half rolled and got behind my flight.  I gave the order to jettison our bombs and break.  I dropped flaps and started in a tight Lufberry.  When I had completed one turn I was alone, and at that time I saw an Me 109 in a vertical turn coming in front of me so I started firing at him at a 90 degree deflection shot.  He flew right into the pattern and I saw strikes on him from nose to tail.  The plane seemed to shudder and slow down.  I was about 200 yards when I started to fire.  The Me 109 then made a 90 degree turn to the left and started to climb as if he was going to loop.  I followed him, closing to about 100 yards, fired and saw strikes all over his canopy, fuselage and tail surfaces.  As he was about at the top of his loop and almost on his back, I saw what looked like his canopy come off, as the plane seemed to hang there.  It looked like I had wounded the pilot during the first 90 degree deflection shot and he was rolling it over on his back to jettison his canopy and bail out.

About that time I looked in my rear view mirror and saw an Me 109 on my tail.  I dropped flaps and turned into him. He half rolled and went down.  As I rolled out I saw an Me 109 coming down in front of me.  I opened up again and gave him a 90-degree deflection shot.    He ran into my pattern and I saw strikes all over the plane.  I followed him and kept firing from directly behind him, seeing strikes on his tail surfaces.  Then he proceeded to go down in a wild dive from about 5000 feet.  I looked back in my mirror again, because all during this time I was still alone.  My flight had left me.  I saw another Me 109 coming in on my tail. I dropped flaps, leveled out and turned into him. He automatically went into a steep climb and I lost him in the sun.  When I looked I saw no more enemy and called my Flight to join me.”


Lt. Royal Madden  from the same Flight and same fight, July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left.  I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me.  I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet.  This boy was good and he had me plenty worried  as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection.  I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst.  There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off.  He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home.  Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped.  As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”


you'll note that they pretty much did what us cartoon pile-its do. 

[thorsim]

of course they did, all experienced pilots who had them (low deflection flaps) available knew they could use them in combat and often did. 

however the specifics of when, why, and to what extent they used them are as different in the games compared to the real world as the flaps and their effects are different in the games compared to the real world. probably different in direct relation to how differently flaps work in the real world compared to the games.

i.e.

could flaps give you some more turn to solve an angle in the real word?  yes absolutely.

would flaps make an inherently inferior maneuvering aircraft a superior maneuvering aircraft? no absolutely not.

that is just how it is in the real world. in the game not so much.

++S++

t

no offense ... 

[killnu]

Is this clinic still open? 

I am not one of the better sticks in the 38, most nights I am lucky enough to hit something once in a while. Well, stuff besides trees and the ground in general, that is.

I was hoping that many of the people spreading the erroneous information would attend my P38 clinic, I was even hoping for some 109 sticks to come and see how best to fight the P38.

Maybe I should hold a repeat of the first clinic before I hold the second one. Anyone interested?

[CAP1]

of course they did, all experienced pilots who had them (low deflection flaps) available knew they could use them in combat and often did.  

however the specifics of when, why, and to what extent they used them are as different in the games compared to the real world as the flaps and their effects are different in the games compared to the real world. probably different in direct relation to how differently flaps work in the real world compared to the games.

i.e.

could flaps give you some more turn to solve an angle in the real word?  yes absolutely.

would flaps make an inherently inferior maneuvering aircraft a superior maneuvering aircraft? no absolutely not.

that is just how it is in the real world. in the game not so much.

++S++

t

no offense ...  

well.....flaps ingame don't take an inferior turning plane and make it superior turning.

 that would be the pile-it keeping his aircraft in it's respective flight envelope.


i haven't mastered it yet, but i've finally on occasion managed to turn my 38j inside a spit, and a couple hellkitties.

 while they were in flat turns, on one occasion, i was way too fast, but still got inside of him.....another i was waaaaay slower than i should've been....and managed to get inside.
 it was no trickery. it was recognition of the need to change my tactics.,...and in so doing, i got better performance.

 an air force friend of mine(somehwat of a historian) has messed with different ww2 flight games. he knows pilots from ww2, as do i.
 from talking with these people, it would seem that the modeling is pretty darned close here.

 of course there's some gamey things.......but for the most part, when you or me get beat, it has nothing to do with "tricks", so much as it has to do with the fact that the other cartoon pile-it just simply knew his cartoon airplane better.  

almost forgot.....in those AAR's i posted.....they were new pilots.

the 38's use flowler flaps, which function differently than standard flaps also.

[Shuffler]

there is something clearly wrong with the p-38L !!!!  

P-38G   2   0   
P-38J      7   3   
P-38L      6   6   

it is too ugly to have a 1-1 k/d vs. my beautiful FW-190a8   ...

oh sorry, i looked deeper and in the clearly superior FW-190a8 i am 5/3 sooo never mind  

srsly though it does raise some eyebrows maneuvering as it does being one of the biggest heaviest fighters of the war(the heaviest USAAF fighter),  
floats like a Huey too (ya right whatever "couBSgh"),
does not auger or fold up nearly enough for how it is flown in here(of course none of the planes do)
and those nifty air breaks combined with the "virtual fairie dust flaps" do result in some "interesting" maneuvers (stinker bell engineering)
 
...

i would be much happier if i saw them depart more often in that deservedly unrecoverable way, which was the real trade off for all that weight, torque, and huge adjustments in airfoil while maneuvering ...

but hey since none of those trixy trix are ACM, and either a crutch or an act of desperation you can do just fine vs the "split tails" ...  

after all i haven't been here that long and i am having no trouble with them whatsoever ...

no offense and mostly meant as humor ..

++S++

t

Yup was funny. It also shows how little you've flown one in-game. Also shows how little you know of the 38 in WWII. <S>

lol coming from warbirds would explain most of your issues as far as lack of tact.

Now I suggest you try flying the 38 in here. All games are not created equal. Or better yet go fly WB with the 12 or so folks you think are so grand.

Your fishing expedition was not a success.

[ink]

the only thing im gonna say is this, last night I was headed towards a huge dar, this guy thorsim and at least 4 of his buddies were staying right around our field and as soon as a red guy came in all of them were all over that one lone con    I was extremely impressed with there  ability to stay alive 


   

[CAP1]

the only thing im gonna say is this, last night I was headed towards a huge dar, this guy thorsim and at least 4 of his buddies were staying right around our field and as soon as a red guy came in all of them were all over that one lone con    I was extremely impressed with there  ability to stay alive 


   

i need practice on surviving those situations. i can make 2 cons work their tulips off to get me, and i might even FUBAR one of em....but more than 2, and i'm totally defensive.....

[BnZs]

srsly though it does raise some eyebrows maneuvering as it does being one of the biggest heaviest fighters of the war(the heaviest USAAF fighter),  
floats like a Huey too (ya right whatever "couBSgh"),

An aircraft's weight on the scales does not determine its turn or climb performance...I see this error repeated over and over on these forums. Wing-loading or more properly lift-loading and power-loading are the keys. The Lightning has a fairly decent power-loading, and while the wing-loading is pretty high, the wing's high aspect ratio and effective flaps are positive factors. The P-38 was considered a good turning plane in the ETO.

does not auger or fold up nearly enough for how it is flown in here(of course none of the planes do)
and those nifty air breaks combined with the "virtual fairie dust flaps" do result in some "interesting" maneuvers (stinker bell engineering)
 

Why should the 38 fold up? Are you claiming HTC has not modeled all the planes to their correct structural limits? As far as augering goes, the real 38 had a problem with compressability, the AHII 38 has a problem with compressability, so what are you saying?

The "air brakes"...do you speak of the dive flaps on the L model? They are nothing of the kind...IIRC correctly Widewing determined that they actually add *no* drag to the P-38L, which is weird but beside the point. They merely help pitch the nose up at compressibility speeds. As far as the flaps go...do some quick research on Fowler type flaps and tell me if you don't think they sound like effective lift-increasing devices. BTW, the P-38L's full flap radius is ~26% smaller than its no-flaps radius. The Fw-190D9's full flaps radius is ~25% smaller than its no flaps radius...guess *both* planes have got to have "magic flaps" aye?
...

i would be much happier if i saw them depart more often in that deservedly unrecoverable way, which was the real trade off for all that weight, torque, and huge adjustments in airfoil while maneuvering ...

Statement makes no sense at all. The 38's total weight is no factor, as explained, it has no net torque if both engines are running, and I can't imagine why you think deploying its flaps would make it's departure more severe.

[B4Buster]

the only thing im gonna say is this, last night I was headed towards a huge dar, this guy thorsim and at least 4 of his buddies were staying right around our field and as soon as a red guy came in all of them were all over that one lone con   I was extremely impressed with there  ability to stay alive  


    

INK, clearly this guy has issues telling the different between real life, and this game.

[texastc316]

i need practice on surviving those situations. i can make 2 cons work their tulips off to get me, and i might even FUBAR one of em....but more than 2, and i'm totally defensive.....

I think INK is saying it was a 5 v1, and your buddy was one of the 5.