Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Vinkman on September 25, 2009, 10:11:44 AM
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The P-38J is racking up quite a kill ratio in the MA. In fact it is the highest non-perk plane in the MA.(see table below) I did a little digging and discovered that a dozen or so pilots have kill ratios over 8:1 in this plane and fly it almost exlusively which is driving up it's kill ratio. I did this investigation because lately this historically average plane has been untouchable in 1 on 1s, and the deaths have all come via the same tactic on the part of the 38 driver, which is to pull the plane vertical, wait for the opponent to stall out, rudder/throttle over, dive and make the kill. What makes this so strange is the seemingly incredible ability of the 38 to climb vertically, and rudder over, regardless of e-state. On paper this plane has inferior power to weight, climb rate, and acceration numbers compared to most planes in the MA. Perhaps a dual throttle control can allow for rapid yaw compared to centerline powered aircraft that need to rely on rudder only (hence airspeed), but that doesn't explain the 38's seemingly exeptional vertical climb and stall performance. I suspect a cabal of 38 drivers have discovered something about the P-38 flight model that can be exploited in the MA and are utilizing it to rack up these lopsided kill ratios. We non-38 drivers owe it to ourselves to figure out what's up. I would like to analyze this 38 manuever more objectively, and get the word out to all MA pilots the what-to-do's when a 38 pilots goes vertical. With a little collective wisdom maybe we can put these guys back in their historical place.
So I'm asking for anyone that wishes to participate, to film your missions and post any 38-goes-vertical-rudders-over-and-kills-me films you get. Then we can analyze e-state, relative speeds etc etc and see what's up.
I don't mean to over emphasize the idea of some kind of flight model error. The real point of this post is to understand the tactic objectively to develop a counter.
Plane Name Kills Deaths Kill/Death Ratio
Me 163B 531 76 6.9
Tempest 3552 541 6.55
Me 262 2233 370 6.02
F4U-4 2307 911 2.53
F4U-1C 4666 1962 2.38
P-38J 6797 3805 1.79
Typhoon IB 11265 7537 1.49
Ta 152H 1573 1098 1.43
P-47-D11 1004 708 1.42
Ki-84-Ia 4649 3410 1.36
Ki-61 1367 1056 1.29
Fw 190D-9 7599 6002 1.27
Bf 109K-4 5527 4343 1.27
F4U-1A 6139 4902 1.25
Spitfire Mk XIV 863 698 1.23
A-20G 2600 2123 1.22
Fw 190A-5 2625 2190 1.2
P-51D 21910 18937 1.16
P-47-D25 953 821 1.16
N1K2 9274 8046 1.15
Hurricane Mk IIC 4572 3991 1.15
Bf 109G-14 3243 2833 1.14
C.205 2616 2305 1.13
P-38G 651 600 1.08
Spitfire Mk XVI 17799 16767 1.06
La-7 6656 6264 1.06
Fw 190A-8 7213 6912 1.04
P-51B 2057 1977 1.04
Bf 109G-6 1634 1572 1.04
Spitfire Mk IX 5611 5527 1.02
Yak-9U 3146 3074 1.02
Il-2 8118 8128 1
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Hey hey hey, what's with all the investigation on the B-38.
:noid
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Perk the P-38!!
But really it climbs, rolls, and stalls nicely because of the counter rotation props.
Also it is very hard to fly making people who jump in it good pilots and able to fight, the Spit16 on the other hand requires little skill and therefore many new players fly it lowering its k/d.
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*awaits for the mighty 12*
:noid
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You assume that plane attributes are the major factor.....
The reality is the caliber of pilots flying them makes a big difference. Its why you see the P-47D11 so high up there. The P-38J is a plane favored only by a select few, and flown extremely well. Your analysis is incorrect in assuming that k/d should resemble WW2 levels.
There isn't some bug, more like a statistical bump spurred on by good piloting.
Strip
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Just as Strip indicated, the P-38 has a solid hardcore fan base that attracts good sticks.
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The reality is the caliber of pilots flying them makes a big difference. Its why you see the P-47D11 so high up there. The P-38J is a plane favored only by a select few, and flown extremely well.
There isn't some bug, more like a statistical bump spurred on by good piloting.
Strip
This is probably true Strip. I hope to analyse the tactic and understand how to counter.
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It's all about the blender man....
That and the SAPP only dot commands...
:noid
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Your analysis is incorrect in assuming that k/d should resemble WW2 levels.
The P38 had the highest K/D ratio among all USAAC planes, not to mention the top scoring US Aces of WW2 flew P38s.
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Its the pilots I would recommend studying the pilots that fly them.....
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We can go into details of the SAPP conspiracy :noid
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Pee 38's hide their E-state well.
It is very hard to judge their E-state by looks or just a glance alone, especially in a furball or dogfight.
Best way to counter?
Check roster for SAPP guys.
If they are on the roster, don't follow any 38's into the vertical unless you have LOTS of E or are in a plane that's hard to hang from it's prop like a 109 K-4, and even then, be cautious. :aok
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Just as Strip indicated, the P-38 has a solid hardcore fan base that attracts good sticks.
So MJTalon are you a self professed good stick? ;)
Seriously, I assume you fly it regularly, Is this a favorite manuever? Do you use dual throttles? and does manipulating them independently help? I can't seem to replicate this myself (I am a self professed non-good stick) but I only have a single throttle.
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This is probably true Strip. I hope to analyse the tactic and understand how to counter.
The tactic you describe sounds like a "rope".
The counter is to NOT follow the guy up, stall under him, and allow him to drop on you for the kill. It's really as simple as that. The rope fails if the intended victim refuses to be roped...
Of course, he may still kill you with a different tactic, but the rope will have failed, hehe!
The rope is a preferred tactic for many pilots, whether in the P38 or not.
Lots of info on this in the Help and Training forums.
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Pee 38's hide their E-state well.
It is very hard to judge their E-state by looks or just a glance alone, especially in a furball or dogfight.
Best way to counter?
Check roster for SAPP guys.
If they are on the roster, don't follow any 38's into the vertical unless you have LOTS of E or are in a plane that's hard to hang from it's prop like a 109 K-4, and even then, be cautious. :aok
:aok I believe the e-state comment. I have often felt I must have judged incorrectly. It's why I want to check some film and confirm.
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Your intial post seems to indicate your more inclined to believe its a flight model bug.
Your statement,"On paper this plane has inferior power to weight, climb rate, and acceration numbers compared to most planes in the MA." is inaccurate.
The P-38 is capable of well over 3,000 FPM climb rates at lower altitudes and weight. Climb rate is a rough indicator of acceleration ability, its certainly not inferior. It has excellent zoom characteristics and counter rotating props help maintain stability. The hp/weight ratio AFAIK ranks in the upper half of all planes in Aces High.
Strip
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This is just friggin' hilarious
Vinkman, the P-38L, which is identical to the J in every way except for being a little better (boosted ailerons and dive flaps) has a much lower k/d ratio. Hmmm, let's put on our thinking caps and try to figure out why...
No, the P-38J/L is not super-impressive as a LW plane going simply by speed, turn, and climb numbers. The P-38's strengths which don't show up on paper are torqueless stability, and a very well placed gun package. And a *very* good over-the-nose view when tracking targets with those guns btw. The wing also looks like it has a high aspect ratio, which could be a help in the E-retention department during maneuvers. The J's particular strength though, are the pilots who fly them.
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pfff, you just need to learn to counter the attack of a P-38. Start fighting the SAPP tards and you will get better fighting them.
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The counter is to NOT follow the guy up, stall under him, and allow him to drop on you for the kill. It's really as simple as that. The rope fails if the intended victim refuses to be roped...
I think most would agree that pulling vertical with a bandit on your tail is usually a rookie move that will get you killed. The first guy vertical will slow down first creating closure for the bandit. It's what makes the success of this move so unusual. I'm with VonMessa that many must be mis-judging the speed of the 38. but why do so many mis-judge the speed? granted it's a big plane, but more often than not, I'm using the distance in the plane Icon to judge whether I'm gaining or flling behind a bandit.
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So MJTalon are you a self professed good stick? ;)
Seriously, I assume you fly it regularly, Is this a favorite manuever? Do you use dual throttles? and does manipulating them independently help? I can't seem to replicate this myself (I am a self professed non-good stick) but I only have a single throttle.
Noooo. :eek:
I suck compared to the rest of the SAPP/ 80th/479th sticks. I'm a novice in their and my own eyes. Check with Guppy, Ack, Shuffler, Del, etc.
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I think most would agree that pulling vertical with a bandit on your tail is usually a rookie move that will get you killed. The first guy vertical will slow down first creating closure for the bandit. It's what makes the success of this move so unusual. I'm with VonMessa that many must be mis-judging the speed of the 38. but why do so many mis-judge the speed? granted it's a big plane, but more often than not, I'm using the distance in the plane Icon to judge whether I'm gaining or flling behind a bandit.
remember, it has two engines for being such a large fighter. Also take into account the P-38 has no torque due to counter rotating props. Therefore, allowing it to go into helo mode when in the vertical.
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The P-38J is a plane favored only by a select few, and flown extremely well. Your analysis is incorrect in assuming that k/d should resemble WW2 levels.
There isn't some bug, more like a statistical bump spurred on by good piloting.
+1
With planes not being part of the MA "mainstream" a small number of dedicated pilots can and will have a huge impact on K/D's. With rare planes like 109F or Hurri I, I have managed to have quite an impact all by myself alone. At times, the 152's K/D rocketed into orbit when a few talented guys where flying it almost exclusively, 3 players alone having about 50% of all kills in it.
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Vink, there is no "secret" technique to the thing. Just good pilots taking advantage of its strengths. The average player could rack up a a higher k/d in the SpitIX or even P-51D,since the P-38 can not fight simply by putting its left vector on most bandits and pulling, and since it can not simply speed out of bad situations
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I think most would agree that pulling vertical with a bandit on your tail is usually a rookie move that will get you killed. The first guy vertical will slow down first creating closure for the bandit. It's what makes the success of this move so unusual. I'm with VonMessa that many must be mis-judging the speed of the 38. but why do so many mis-judge the speed? granted it's a big plane, but more often than not, I'm using the distance in the plane Icon to judge whether I'm gaining or flling behind a bandit.
not if you are "Leading" the bandit on your tail to hanging themselves on the "Rope" not a rookie manuever at all.........a flat turn is a rookie move or diving down/split-s maneuver at the beginning of a fit is a rookie move giving up the advantage......
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I think most would agree that pulling vertical with a bandit on your tail is usually a rookie move that will get you killed. The first guy vertical will slow down first creating closure for the bandit. It's what makes the success of this move so unusual. I'm with VonMessa that many must be mis-judging the speed of the 38. but why do so many mis-judge the speed? granted it's a big plane, but more often than not, I'm using the distance in the plane Icon to judge whether I'm gaining or flling behind a bandit.
It's not that pulling vertical with a bandit on your tail is a rookie/bad move. It's more that pulling vertical in the wrong situation is a bad move. Done properly, in the right situation, pulling vertical can be a great move!
The first guy pulling vertical doesn't have to get so slow as to allow closure. It depends on the situation.
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I think most would agree that pulling vertical with a bandit on your tail is usually a rookie move that will get you killed. The first guy vertical will slow down first creating closure for the bandit. It's what makes the success of this move so unusual. I'm with VonMessa that many must be mis-judging the speed of the 38. but why do so many mis-judge the speed? granted it's a big plane, but more often than not, I'm using the distance in the plane Icon to judge whether I'm gaining or flling behind a bandit.
Unlike single engine planes, the 38 can hang until literally 0mph, flop nose down, then go back to flying and tracking for guns *immediately*.
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Your intial post seems to indicate your more inclined to believe its a flight model bug.
The P-38 is capable of well over 3,000 FPM climb rates at lower altitudes and weight. Climb rate is a rough indicator of acceleration ability, its certainly not inferior. It has excellent zoom characteristics and counter rotating props help maintain stability. The hp/weight ratio AFAIK ranks in the upper half of all planes in Aces High.
Strip
I haven;t checked all the clib rate at various loads. I've jumped in 38's and checked the climb rate. It's not superior to Spits, 109, C205, and many Corsairs. So I will yield to not knowing it percentile status on climb rate, But I have flown C205, and Spits agaist 38s and lost in the same fashion.
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...more often than not, I'm using the distance in the plane Icon to judge whether I'm gaining or falling behind a bandit.
Which is exactly what the P38 pilot is counting on, and (probably) consciously using against you.
It's easy to fool someone using the icon counter.
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Your not mis-judging its speed, your mis-judging its energy.
They are related but different, energy level depends on a few factors. 18,000 lbs of mass traveling at 250 mph has more energy than 9,000lbs at the same speed. Of course this is a bit generic but it gives you an idea. Many dont realize it but one of the best vertical zoom planes in the game is the A-20. Pound for pound it will convert airspeed into altitude better than near every other plane. On paper it looks like a mundane twin engine bomber, much like the B-38!
What you need to realize is the P-38 is very good at converting its energy into altitude.
Strip
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I haven;t checked all the clib rate at various loads. I've jumped in 38's and checked the climb rate. It's not superior to Spits, 109, C205, and many Corsairs. So I will yield to not knowing it percentile status on climb rate, But I have flown C205, and Spits agaist 38s and lost in the same fashion.
have you played AH for more than ayear? have you flown yor particularly favorite plane from 6 months to a year none stop, and learned it through and through?
just last night, I was in an F4U-1 and had a Ta-152 trying to rope me, then along comes another Bishop in a P38-L....I played my cards right to where I knew the Ta-152 was gonna stall out before me when he went vertical and that the P38-L was gonna stall out right below me roughly 800 to 600 out...they both got smoking engines in the same vertical manuever they tried to set me up on........kind of funny, but was well worth the adrenaline rush to boot
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Vinkman,there are several things your over looking in your assessment of the 38.
First,the counter rotating props offer a huge advantage in a stall,second, while not the highest P/W ratio your not figuring in the drag,which is very low.Then theres the weight which adds to the 38's inertia giving it a great zoom climb ability.
Personal at 1 time I did use dual throttle but found it was more work that it was worth and rarely use it today.
And lastly as has been said"the quality of pilots",now I wont begin to say that every pilot who flies her is a top stick the few that are can really skew the planes stats.I'm sure if you took the time to look up all the guys who fly the 38 "exclusively"you'd find that most would be above average but only a few would be "top tier" and those few have the greatest affect on the 38's K/D ratio.
:salute
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+1
With planes not being part of the MA "mainstream" a small number of dedicated pilots can and will have a huge impact on K/D's. With rare planes like 109F or Hurri I, I have managed to have quite an impact all by myself alone. At times, the 152's K/D rocketed into orbit when a few talented guys where flying it almost exclusively, 3 players alone having about 50% of all kills in it.
Lusche, I get that. but this is less about good sticks, as it is about good sticks using a the same move over and over. Well it seems to me, because that's how I keep getting whacked. So I'm posting this to see if others experiencing same one trick death, or I'm the only guy who can't figure out how not get roped by a good 38 pilot.
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The reason your seeing it so much is because, get ready, it works!!
Go to the TA and ask one of the trainers to show you how to counter it.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.
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This theory has been pretty much discredited. "Weight" is not actually a significant positive factor in zooming...high thrust and low drag are the two most important positives. There was a long thread, in Help and Training I believe, where the smart aero guys demonstrated the math. Turns out starting speed was the single most important factor for what aircraft zooms highest, when we're talking WWII prop fighters.
In my practical tests, from 400mph OTD, you get the almost identical zooms out of a Jug, Corsair, Pony, 109, Spit so on and so forth. The only one that averaged a little better was the 38, and that I attribute to torqulessness allowing one to hold the nose higher just a little longer....same thing that makes it such a good roper.
Your not mis-judging its speed, your mis-judging its energy.
They are related but different, energy level depends on a few factors. 18,000 lbs of mass traveling at 250 mph has more energy than 9,000lbs at the same speed. Of course this is a bit generic but it gives you an idea. Many dont realize it but one of the best vertical zoom planes in the game is the A-20. Pound for pound it will convert airspeed into altitude better than near every other plane. On paper it looks like a mundane twin engine bomber, much like the B-38!
What you need to realize is the P-38 is very good at converting its energy into altitude.
Strip
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have you played AH for more than ayear? have you flown yor particularly favorite plane from 6 months to a year none stop, and learned it through and through?
just last night, I was in an F4U-1 and had a Ta-152 trying to rope me, then along comes another Bishop in a P38-L....I played my cards right to where I knew the Ta-152 was gonna stall out before me when he went vertical and that the P38-L was gonna stall out right below me roughly 800 to 600 out...they both got smoking engines in the same vertical manuever they tried to set me up on........kind of funny, but was well worth the adrenaline rush to boot
Very cool :aok I assume the 38 wsn't one of SAPP guys :D
I'm hoping to learn from film, which mught be faster than learning the hardway in MA. ;)
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It's not so much as using the same maneuver over and over. It's utilizing the P-38's strength which is vertical performance. That's like saying you're tired of getting beat by a spitfire who just uses the yank in gut maneuver until he gets guns on you.
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Well it seems to me, because that's how I keep getting whacked. So I'm posting this to see if others experiencing same one trick death, or I'm the only guy who can't figure out how not get roped by a good 38 pilot.
everyone that plays this game long enough will be shot down due to getting ROPED......... regardless if it is a 38 plane shooting you down or a a6m2.........
as said already, their are a good handful of 38 pilot groupies in this game :D
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I did not state weight is a factor in zooming...it does however have a direct impact on kinetic energy.
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P38s are "head and shoulders" above all planes except maybe the corsairs, especially in 1v1 match-ups!
BIG WING, GREAT FLAPS, SUPERB E RETENTION etc. etc. don't be fooled by its size and poor views! It truely is "top of the line" :aok :aok
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Vinkman,there are several things your over looking in your assessment of the 38.
First,the counter rotating props offer a huge advantage in a stall,second, while not the highest P/W ratio your not figuring in the drag,which is very low.Then theres the weight which adds to the 38's inertia giving it a great zoom climb ability.
Personal at 1 time I did use dual throttle but found it was more work that it was worth and rarely use it today.
And lastly as has been said"the quality of pilots",now I wont begin to say that every pilot who flies her is a top stick the few that are can really skew the planes stats.I'm sure if you took the time to look up all the guys who fly the 38 "exclusively"you'd find that most would be above average but only a few would be "top tier" and those few have the greatest affect on the 38's K/D ratio.
:salute
All perfectly correct. Thanks for the info about the dual throttles.
To be clear. I get that only good pilots would be good at this kind of manuever. I think what I'm saying is that the good pilots have figured out that the 38 is best at "roping" and use the technique a lot to great effect.
...and I want to learn how to kill them when they do it. :devil
of course if the guy is that good and practiced at it, he probably won;t do it if he's going to lead to his death, so his vertical move should be a hint that I do not have the advantage I think I have. But I want to study this so I can know that myself.
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I did not state weight is a factor in zooming...it does however have a direct impact on kinetic energy.
But again, from identical speeds you get almost identical zooms out AHII aircraft with vastly different weights. But I suppose if you were using the airplane as a projectile, yeah, a Jug would do more damage than a Spit. :devil
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P38s are "head and shoulders" above all planes except maybe the corsairs, especially in 1v1 match-ups!
BIG WING, GREAT FLAPS, SUPERB E RETENTION etc. etc. don't be fooled by its size and poor views! It truely is "top of the line" :aok :aok
Views are stellar once you set them correctly. Only blind spot is below your wings but that can be fixed with a quick dip on each side to scan that area.
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P38s are "head and shoulders" above all planes except maybe the corsairs, especially in 1v1 match-ups!
BIG WING, GREAT FLAPS, SUPERB E RETENTION etc. etc. don't be fooled by its size and poor views! It truely is "top of the line" :aok :aok
Shrek, you would know. :salute
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The P-38J is racking up quite a kill ratio in the MA. In fact it is the highest non-perk plane in the MA.(see table below) I did a little digging and discovered that a dozen or so pilots have kill ratios over 8:1 in this plane and fly it almost exlusively which is driving up it's kill ratio. I did this investigation because lately this historically average plane has been untouchable in 1 on 1s, and the deaths have all come via the same tactic on the part of the 38 driver, which is to pull the plane vertical, wait for the opponent to stall out, rudder/throttle over, dive and make the kill. What makes this so strange is the seemingly incredible ability of the 38 to climb vertically, and rudder over, regardless of e-state. On paper this plane has inferior power to weight, climb rate, and acceration numbers compared to most planes in the MA. Perhaps a dual throttle control can allow for rapid yaw compared to centerline powered aircraft that need to rely on rudder only (hence airspeed), but that doesn't explain the 38's seemingly exeptional vertical climb and stall performance. I suspect a cabal of 38 drivers have discovered something about the P-38 flight model that can be exploited in the MA and are utilizing it to rack up these lopsided kill ratios. We non-38 drivers owe it to ourselves to figure out what's up. I would like to analyze this 38 manuever more objectively, and get the word out to all MA pilots the what-to-do's when a 38 pilots goes vertical. With a little collective wisdom maybe we can put these guys back in their historical place.
So I'm asking for anyone that wishes to participate, to film your missions and post any 38-goes-vertical-rudders-over-and-kills-me films you get. Then we can analyze e-state, relative speeds etc etc and see what's up.
I don't mean to over emphasize the idea of some kind of flight model error. The real point of this post is to understand the tactic objectively to develop a counter.
Totally incorrect. Allow me to share this:
"While in the pilots' lounge at Santa Maria Air Base, California, I overheard three P-38 student pilots scorning their airplane. They were saying the P-38 would not operate above 25,000ft, or if it would, their instructor would not take them. I found out their instructor's name and cleared a flight with the students. My briefing was short and to the point: "We're going to take this four-ship formation up and we will continue to climb until one of you say 'uncle'." With that we took off. At 42,800ft indicated on the altimeter, I heard a garbled "uncle" being transmitted by a throat mike. One hundred percent Oxygen under pressure made it difficult to speak at high altitude. The formation was climbing at 500 ft per minute when the flight was terminated. That flight convinced them that the P-38 was a high altitude aircraft."
Lt. Frank Shearin Jr. - 343rd FG, the Aleutians 1943.
I now fly the J exclusively. If I assist in a capture or CV sinking, I'll grab an L. But now, I just want to fight and stay away from the Desktop Generals who "think they know it all", even when their tactics are useless.
The 38 was more than "average" in WWII. I suggest you get Warren Bodie's book "P-38 Lightning" and maybe reading an authoritative book like that, will properly inform you of it's capabilities.
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I think of the rope as more of a filter. You filter out the bad sticks by roping them, and if they don't get roped then proceed to have a good fight :aok
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Lusche, I get that. but this is less about good sticks, as it is about good sticks using a the same move over and over. Well it seems to me, because that's how I keep getting whacked. So I'm posting this to see if others experiencing same one trick death, or I'm the only guy who can't figure out how not get roped by a good 38 pilot.
For starters, look for two things to help you decide whether the guy going vertical in front of you is making a mistake, or whether he's roping you.
One, the icon counter is a "trap" when it comes to judging E-state. Yes, in a very basic sense, "+" means you're getting closer to him, and "-" means you're falling behind. But, "getting closer" doesn't mean you're faster, have more E, or can catch him if he goes vertical. Likewise, the P38 pilot seeing a "+" doesn't mean he's going to be successful with the rope either.
You've got to figure out why you're seeing the "+" or "-". For example, I can have you behind me, and let you see a "-" just by turning to the right or left slightly, and allowing you to "cut across the inside corner" of my turn. I can actually be faster than you, and have you see the "-" because you're getting closer to me. Now, I go vertical, and you follow me up... Who's still faster? Who's gonna stall first?
It's even more misleading if I tighten my turn enough to get you coming from about my 4 O'clock. You'll be getting closer to me very quickly, even if you're far to slow to follow me vertical...
The second thing to watch for is "how" he goes vertical. Is it done in a manner that allows you (the pursuer) to "cut across the corner" again? If yes, it's probably not a rope, or at least a very well planned rope. If he does that, you may very well catch him, even if he's faster than you...
On the other hand, if he goes vertical in a less-abrupt manner, that doesn't allow you to "cut across the inside corner", but rather forces you to fly very close to his own flight path, look out! He's taking you vertical in a careful, planned manner... Guess what comes next?
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...and I want to learn how to kill them when they do it. :devil
ok here is a short simple example..........like my fight last night...the 1st time the Ta152 went vertical on me, I knew without a doubt I could not follow him.so I did a very shallow nose above horizon climb...
when he rolled over/in on me I did a break turn showing him a side profile view of my plane , being 90deg to him, yet puling enough he could not follow with his speed he was carrying.....I leveled out.he flew by and went to go vertical again........having kept my speed up by not climbing the 1st time.the second time I began to follow him up.but I did not let my "maneuvering speed" drop below the minimal I thought I needed incase I needed to evade his attack again.but this time as I was climbing up his "six" I FAKED a STALL.....I purposely wobbled....this cuased the ta152 flyer to immediatly roll over and dive on me again.this time when he overshot I rolled right in on his six.......
he dove down since I was on his tail.then here comes the P38L slightly higher than both of us diving in on my 6 roughly 2.5k back
this time I was 1.5K off the ta152....... when he went to drag me vertical this time I watched him as his counter began to come back to me...also watching the P38L as his counter was getting closer...... they both stalled nearly at the same time, I had a slight E advantage left.....
I smoked the ta152 engine.he began to flail abit. I rolled inverted and smacked the P38L as he was in a flat stall trying to get his nose down smoking his engine......
so learn to read the E- State and also learn to recognize when someone is trying to rope you, then when the time is right "Show Em The FAKE Stall or Wobble ya wings"......
hope that helps.......
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There is a reason the Germans called them "Forked-Tailed Devil"
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I just tried to do the zoom test with the RV8...very crude because the ASI does not go up to 400, so I was using the E6B as my indicator, didn't quite get it up to 400 in the dive before I got to the deck and began the zoom, too many Gs on the pullup...but anyway, I still got 5000 feet out of the thing before stalling, as compared to ~6K-7K you get out of the WWII bird. Which is interesting, to me at least.
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There is a reason the Germans called them "Forked-Tailed Devil"
Do a little research on that, and you might find it hard to ever find a source that agrees with that ;)
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I thought it was the Japanese that called the 38 'The Fork Tailed Devil'. I also thought the 38 faired worse in Europe than in the Pacific.
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Der Gabelschwanz Teufel
"The Forked-Tail Devil."
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Wow.... 8.0
Mine is quite a bit lower than that since most of my fights are below 5k and many below 1k.
I don't put much into ratios or scores. All can be manipulated by staying away from red dar bars. In doing so you won't really know if your getting better or not.
Now if you get down and dirty in the middle of fights and your k/d stays decent... then you can say your improving or holding your own.
In the end... no matter what you do at some time or another your going to get shot down. I do fairly often. To the point that usually my bird has that "New Plane" smell. :aok
<edit>
PS I fly single throttle
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As far as I've ever been able to tell, neither of them called it that. Although a Popular Science (I believe) article in 43 or 44 did claim the Germans called it by that name.
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You haven't read very far then....
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Show me one source that shows it was common (or at all) for the Luftwaffe to call it that.
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I think most would agree that pulling vertical with a bandit on your tail is usually a rookie move that will get you killed. The first guy vertical will slow down first creating closure for the bandit. It's what makes the success of this move so unusual. I'm with VonMessa that many must be mis-judging the speed of the 38. but why do so many mis-judge the speed? granted it's a big plane, but more often than not, I'm using the distance in the plane Icon to judge whether I'm gaining or flling behind a bandit.
Don't confuse speed and E
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Der Gabelschwanz Teufel
"The Forked-Tail Devil."
Thats a misquote... they were calling it 'Pork on the Table' (Schwein auf dem Tisch). Sounds similar to Yankees. :D
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"...pulling vertical with a bandit on your tail is usually a rookie move that will get you killed. "
Only if, and I'll repeat it, ONLY IF you forget to hit the brakes and make them fly right on by.
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From what I understand, the main contributor to the 38's troubles in the ETO was its pilots freezing their arse's off at high altitudes. Even though it is just as cold at high altitudes in other parts of the world, the operational altitudes tended to be lower.
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I don't mean to over emphasize the idea of some kind of flight model error. The real point of this post is to understand the tactic objectively to develop a counter.
The counter to the P-38 is to learn some skill. Sounds like someone found themselves getting burned with a Rope-A-Dope.
ack-ack
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:rofl
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So MJTalon are you a self professed good stick? ;)
Seriously, I assume you fly it regularly, Is this a favorite manuever? Do you use dual throttles? and does manipulating them independently help? I can't seem to replicate this myself (I am a self professed non-good stick) but I only have a single throttle.
Duel throttles will not give someone an edge in the P-38, in other words, you will not win the fight because of duel throttles. It does not 'increase' the maneuverability of the P-38 and is only useful in a few situations like pulling off really nice looking hammerheads, help recover in certain spin situations and it increases the immersion factor and that's pretty much it.
ack-ack
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The P-38J is racking up quite a kill ratio in the MA. In fact it is the highest non-perk plane in the MA.(see table below) I did a little digging and discovered that a dozen or so pilots have kill ratios over 8:1 in this plane and fly it almost exlusively which is driving up it's kill ratio. I did this investigation because lately this historically average plane has been untouchable in 1 on 1s, and the deaths have all come via the same tactic on the part of the 38 driver, which is to pull the plane vertical, wait for the opponent to stall out, rudder/throttle over, dive and make the kill. What makes this so strange is the seemingly incredible ability of the 38 to climb vertically, and rudder over, regardless of e-state. On paper this plane has inferior power to weight, climb rate, and acceration numbers compared to most planes in the MA. Perhaps a dual throttle control can allow for rapid yaw compared to centerline powered aircraft that need to rely on rudder only (hence airspeed), but that doesn't explain the 38's seemingly exeptional vertical climb and stall performance. I suspect a cabal of 38 drivers have discovered something about the P-38 flight model that can be exploited in the MA and are utilizing it to rack up these lopsided kill ratios. We non-38 drivers owe it to ourselves to figure out what's up. I would like to analyze this 38 manuever more objectively, and get the word out to all MA pilots the what-to-do's when a 38 pilots goes vertical. With a little collective wisdom maybe we can put these guys back in their historical place.
So I'm asking for anyone that wishes to participate, to film your missions and post any 38-goes-vertical-rudders-over-and-kills-me films you get. Then we can analyze e-state, relative speeds etc etc and see what's up.
I don't mean to over emphasize the idea of some kind of flight model error. The real point of this post is to understand the tactic objectively to develop a counter.
Plane Name Kills Deaths Kill/Death Ratio
Me 163B 531 76 6.9
Tempest 3552 541 6.55
Me 262 2233 370 6.02
F4U-4 2307 911 2.53
F4U-1C 4666 1962 2.38
P-38J 6797 3805 1.79
Typhoon IB 11265 7537 1.49
Ta 152H 1573 1098 1.43
P-47-D11 1004 708 1.42
Ki-84-Ia 4649 3410 1.36
Ki-61 1367 1056 1.29
Fw 190D-9 7599 6002 1.27
Bf 109K-4 5527 4343 1.27
F4U-1A 6139 4902 1.25
Spitfire Mk XIV 863 698 1.23
A-20G 2600 2123 1.22
Fw 190A-5 2625 2190 1.2
P-51D 21910 18937 1.16
P-47-D25 953 821 1.16
N1K2 9274 8046 1.15
Hurricane Mk IIC 4572 3991 1.15
Bf 109G-14 3243 2833 1.14
C.205 2616 2305 1.13
P-38G 651 600 1.08
Spitfire Mk XVI 17799 16767 1.06
La-7 6656 6264 1.06
Fw 190A-8 7213 6912 1.04
P-51B 2057 1977 1.04
Bf 109G-6 1634 1572 1.04
Spitfire Mk IX 5611 5527 1.02
Yak-9U 3146 3074 1.02
Il-2 8118 8128 1
no. you did the investigation, because you lost a fight or 5 to a b-38 that you didn't think you should;ve lost. i'd guess that you mis-judged the 38's e-state, and tried to follow him up(most likely in a spit of some mark, or a hurri2), stalled, and he kilt ya as you wallowed in the stall, flopping around like a fish outta water.
anyway......you are also wrong on all of the 38's kills coming from this tactic. even me, with my inferior skills in the 38, can score kills without having to rope someone.
you'll also find that generally, there's 2 kinds of pile-its in the 38. those that can fly her amazingly well, and those that can't fly her in combat at all. you can tell the difference by the end of the very first turn in the fight.
the 38 was an amazing aircraft in its time. it was fast, maneuverable, had excellent range.
power to weight? think about the second part there.
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It's all about the blender man....
That and the SAPP only dot commands...
:noid
my favorite?
.cloak :noid
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pfff, you just need to learn to counter the attack of a P-38. Start fighting the SAPP tards and you will get better fighting them.
Hasn't worked for you has it?
ack-ack
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So MJTalon are you a self professed good stick? ;)
Seriously, I assume you fly it regularly, Is this a favorite manuever? Do you use dual throttles? and does manipulating them independently help? I can't seem to replicate this myself (I am a self professed non-good stick) but I only have a single throttle.
i use the rope you described sometimes. i do not use differential throttling. i tried it, and i can't make it work for me. i have heard others say it helps them though.
the best way for you to learn about the 38(or any plane for that matter) is to learn to fight in it.
be careful though.......she may make ya fall in love with her, and you'll not want to fly anything else. :aok
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pfff, I just need to actually learn some evasive maneuvers learn to counter the attack of a P-38. Start fighting the SAPP tards and you will get better fighting them.
fixed.
:noid
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I think most would agree that pulling vertical with a bandit on your tail is usually a rookie move that will get you killed. The first guy vertical will slow down first creating closure for the bandit. It's what makes the success of this move so unusual. I'm with VonMessa that many must be mis-judging the speed of the 38. but why do so many mis-judge the speed? granted it's a big plane, but more often than not, I'm using the distance in the plane Icon to judge whether I'm gaining or flling behind a bandit.
it's not misjudging speed. the 38 has 2 engines and 2 props to hang on.
also, EVERY plane in the set can rope an opponent under the right conditions.
i've been roped by ponys, la's, 38's 47's 109's and others..........it is a very valid tactic. not a rookie move.
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From what I understand, the main contributor to the 38's troubles in the ETO was its pilots freezing their arse's off at high altitudes. Even though it is just as cold at high altitudes in other parts of the world, the operational altitudes tended to be lower.
And mechanical difficulties, etc.
As I understand it, its only real problem doing "fighter stuff" was not being able to follow the Germans when they dove away from high alts.
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Noooo. :eek:
I suck compared to the rest of the SAPP/ 80th/479th sticks. I'm a novice in their and my own eyes. Check with Guppy, Ack, Shuffler, Del, etc.
not compared to me ya don't. :noid :rofl
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Vink, there is no "secret" technique to the thing. Just good pilots taking advantage of its strengths.
this is the key to virtually every plane in the set.
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CAP I'm terrible bro. Honestly! :O
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Just dug through my folder, here's a brief film of me being outnumbered when my wingman went down:
http://www.mediafire.com/?wzmyjw4ltuz
I died but it shows that the 38 can be handled down low and slow for such a big aircraft.
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Lusche, I get that. but this is less about good sticks, as it is about good sticks using a the same move over and over. Well it seems to me, because that's how I keep getting whacked. So I'm posting this to see if others experiencing same one trick death, or I'm the only guy who can't figure out how not get roped by a good 38 pilot.
I get that complaint a lot from players I shoot down and the honest answer is because that's all it took to shoot them down. Why dazzle the other guy with complex maneuvers when it only takes a simple and basic tactic to shoot them down? It's also a very fatal mistake on yours and other player's if they think that the Rope-A-Dope is the only maneuver us veteran pilots know.
ack-ack
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I can probably count on one hand the amount of times I have flown a 38, u i seem like its very stable gun platform
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Duel throttles will not give someone an edge in the P-38, in other words, you will not win the fight because of duel throttles. It does not 'increase' the maneuverability of the P-38 and is only useful in a few situations like pulling off really nice looking hammerheads, help recover in certain spin situations and it increases the immersion factor and that's pretty much it.
ack-ack
In a closely matched vertical fight that "hammerhead" can be all the difference in the world, and if perfected will matter immensley there-bye possibly making dual throttle control a GREAT advantage IMO :aok
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I get that complaint a lot from players I shoot down and the honest answer is because that's all it took to shoot them down. Why dazzle the other guy with complex maneuvers when it only takes a simple and basic tactic to shoot them down? It's also a very fatal mistake on yours and other player's if they think that the Rope-A-Dope is the only maneuver us veteran pilots know.
Lusche, I get that. but this is less about good sticks, as it is about good sticks using a the same move over and over. Well it seems to me, because that's how I keep getting whacked. So I'm posting this to see if others experiencing same one trick death, or I'm the only guy who can't figure out how not get roped by a good 38 pilot.
ack-ack
i had to highlight that quote from vink.
p38 drivers do not use the rope endlessly. some of us use it more often, but we also keep changing our fighting.
what it sounds like is happening, is that the 38 driver is seeing rookie moves from you, realizing you're gonna follow him, and does this.
you should hit the TA, and hook up with a trainer......or just jump in a 38. you'll find it fun.
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WOW! 6 pages in ~2 hours. So the next question is whether or not B-38 drivers are BBS addicts or if the BBS makes you a B-38 addict.
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WOW! 6 pages in ~2 hours. So the next question is whether or not B-38 drivers are BBS addicts or if the BBS makes you a B-38 addict.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< is just finishing up lunch break. :D
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WOW! 6 pages in ~2 hours. So the next question is whether or not B-38 drivers are BBS addicts or if the BBS makes you a B-38 addict.
I was flying the 38 well before I ever signed on to these boards. Soooooo...... :D
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In a closely matched vertical fight that "hammerhead" can be all the difference in the world, and if perfected will matter immensley there-bye possibly making dual throttle control a GREAT advantage IMO :aok
Having flown with both a duel and single throttle, the duel throttle will not give anyone an advantage over someone not using one. Like I said, you're not going to win a fight because you had a duel throttle and you're not going to lose a fight because you used a single throttle.
ack-ack
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Hasn't worked for you has it?
ack-ack
Yes it has. It take you more times to try to pick me. Granted you end up getting me.
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Vinkman you can map select engine1, select engine2, and select all engines to your stick or throttle if you want the effect of twin throttles. It's not as efficient but it will let you play with the P-38 hammerhead and stall recovery.
BTW are you the Vinkman from the early days of AW?
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No he used to chase ghosts when they were all the rage :)
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Vinkman you can map select engine1, select engine2, and select all engines to your stick or throttle if you want the effect of twin throttles. It's not as efficient but it will let you play with the P-38 hammerhead and stall recovery.
BTW are you the Vinkman from the early days of AW?
that'll only help him bleed his e much faster. tried it with that being the only result.
rudders work wonders sometimes. :rofl
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Sounds like someone found themselves getting burned with a Rope-A-Dope.
ack-ack
Is that a revelation? I think I was very clear about getting are arses handed to us by 38 pilots, myself at the top of the list.
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Got Three kills with a P-38L yesterday. Two were Gv's. I have trouble hitting moving GV's in a FW 190 but the 38 is very stable to fly. Many will drive the p-38 BNZ and pick the runways. Very few I think can mix it up in a dogfight with an agile plane and a good stick.
:aok :aok P-38 two thumbs up.
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Cap1 you seriously think you'll lose E during the rotation on a hammerhead or while stopping a spin? :rofl
Did you think you have to pick throttle or rudder instead of using both together? :huh
You tried this once and it didn't work for you? :cry
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i've been roped by ponys, la's, 38's 47's 109's and others..........it is a very valid tactic. not a rookie move.
Pulling vertical is valid for experts who know when to do it. But wouldn't you agree that it's usually one of the first moves a rookie tries because he is unaware of his potential to be a slow moving sitting duck at the top of a half of the loop?
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Just dug through my folder, here's a brief film of me being outnumbered when my wingman went down:
http://www.mediafire.com/?wzmyjw4ltuz
I died but it shows that the 38 can be handled down low and slow for such a big aircraft.
Thanks Talon :aok
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In a closely matched vertical fight that "hammerhead" can be all the difference in the world, and if perfected will matter immensley there-bye possibly making dual throttle control a GREAT advantage IMO :aok
Shek...Can you post some flims of you performing the perfected subject manuever? :D
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Cap1 you seriously think you'll lose E during the rotation on a hammerhead or while stopping a spin? :rofl
Did you think you have to pick throttle or rudder instead of using both together? :huh
You tried this once and it didn't work for you? :cry
Common knowledge among SAPP members that dual throttle is simply more to mess with while fighting. The advantage is so minimal as to be null. It can even be detrimental to your survival.
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Cap1 you seriously think you'll lose E during the rotation on a hammerhead or while stopping a spin? :rofl
Did you think you have to pick throttle or rudder instead of using both together? :huh
You tried this once and it didn't work for you? :cry
no, i had it mapped on my throttle, and tried it for a month or so.
i found i could get over much faster using rudder alone, and keeping a little more speed. also, the prop blast helps increase their effectiveness.
i tried both together, i tried them individually, only to find that the old proven way seems to work best..if you've done it successfully, i'd appreciate seeing a film of it though, and how to do it. :aok
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Vinkman you can map select engine1, select engine2, and select all engines to your stick or throttle if you want the effect of twin throttles. It's not as efficient but it will let you play with the P-38 hammerhead and stall recovery.
Great tip. I'll check it out.
[/quote]
BTW are you the Vinkman from the early days of AW?
[/quote]
One and the same. I used to fly AW back in '95 for about a year then had to give it up. Just got discovered AH in April or may I think. This is a huge improvement. What was your handle in the AW days?
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Pulling vertical is valid for experts who know when to do it. But you wouldn't agree that it's usually one of the first moves a rookie tries because he is unaware of his potential to be a slow moving sitting duck at the top of a half of the loop?
no. most rookies will do one of two things.
they;ll roll, and pull VERY hard in a flat turn to avoid ya, or they'll go down....somehow.....either just pushing the nose over, or split-s'ing.
i've learned(the hard way) that if the guy i've been working on, goes up, he's either roping me and waiting for me to stall, or he's roping me for his wingie to kill.
i do understand where you're coming from though.
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i've learned(the hard way) that if the guy i've been working on, goes up, he's either roping me and waiting for me to stall, or he's roping me for his wingie to kill.
Now this is the truest statement in this whole post :aok
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The answer to the disparity in kill ratios is to kill more 38's! I'll kpee my eyes open. ;)
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Sometimes showing a noob move can throw the other fella a curve. He'll think your new and relax his stance a bit. Not suggested for a second move though :)
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WOW! 6 pages in ~2 hours. So the next question is whether or not B-38 drivers are BBS addicts or if the BBS makes you a B-38 addict.
We just have our ways of knowing...
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z235/nathanyoung1980/signal.jpg)
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What will folks do when SAPP gets their hands on one of these nuclear blenders? :uhoh
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Qp7JzeGpdTM/SLMQogQDV1I/AAAAAAAABAk/WAO7DPsMS4Q/s400/atomic-blender.jpg)
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This is currently installed in my 38J
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/n100641.jpg)
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This is currently installed in my 38J
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/n100641.jpg)
One for each hand :aok
:rofl
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This is currently installed in my 38J
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/n100641.jpg)
lol, your girl drink at best.
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You call that a blender :noid
Mine is gas powered. It fits nicely in my torpedo bay.
(http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp313/Strokeys/gaspowered-blender.jpg)
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lol, your girl drink at best.
lol obviously you've never drank one of mine with a shot on top.
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The answer to the disparity in kill ratios is to kill more 38's! I'll kpee my eyes open. ;)
LOL and I'll keep an eye out for yellow nosed 51Ds. Speaking of guys who know how to rope people :)
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lol obviously you've never drank one of mine with a shot on top.
LOL, If it is anything like you picking me with your P-38. No
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somebodies a bit sour from getting shot down from the lightnings this afternoon.
:uhoh
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LOL, If it is anything like you picking me with your P-38. No
does EVERYBODY in 38's pick you dude?
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Yes it has. It take you more times to try to pick me. Granted you end up getting me.
Please, stop with the 'pick' B.S., as our recent encounters have shown in the MW, all of my kills against you have been one on one affairs. They've always started out with you having the initial altitude advantage which you blow at the merge with your only tactic of going for the Head On, quickly followed by you trying to extend with a dive. Of course, after you die, it also results on you telling me how lucky I was because your stick isn't 'working properly'.
Like I said, your boasts do not match reality.
ack-ack
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does EVERYBODY in 38's pick you dude?
I'd pick him in my Kurfurst if we were on different sides. :aok
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I'd pick him in my Kurfurst if we were on different sides. :aok
LOL.
:aok
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LOL, If it is anything like you picking me with your P-38. No
You seem to get picked alot..... work on your SA. On another note..... you might work on cartoon flying all together. Seems every time I kill you you call it picking. lol
I'm only decent at best in my 38 but I'll be glad to fight you anytime anywhere to work on said flying. I need to work on mine too. We can put an alt cap of 2k on it if you like. How about you at 10 k and me at 2..... that would be fun. Then I could "pick" you from down below.
I'd pick him in my Kurfurst if we were on different sides. :aok
:rofl
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Also it is very hard to fly making people who jump in it good pilots and able to fight, the Spit16 on the other hand requires little skill and therefore many new players fly it lowering its k/d.
P-38J or L is one of the easiest fighters in AH to jump in and do well with. Calling it very hard is a farce.
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does EVERYBODY in 38's pick you dude?
only the SAPP ppl do.
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You obviously dont know what S.A.P.P. is all about do you?
Get the facts straight.
only the SAPP ppl do.
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P-38J or L is one of the easiest fighters in AH to jump in and do well with. Calling it very hard is a farce.
:rofl :rofl
NOW THAT's funny!!
i can kick arse in a spit/hurri2/zeek, and sometimes in the hellkitty.
jump into the 38, and it's a whole different ballgame.
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only the SAPP ppl do.
I object.
:confused:
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only the SAPP ppl do.
LOL well you must fly awfully low for that to be the case. My 38G tends to be on the deck most of the time. Tough to pick from low alt :aok
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only the SAPP ppl do.
daNGIT!!!!!
i must've missed the memo!!!!
seriously, do you even know what SAPP is?
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LOL well you must fly awfully low for that to be the case. My 38G tends to be on the deck most of the time. Tough to pick from low alt :aok
and i can verify that.
i don't think i've ever seen anyone roll a 38G from a capped base before....till guppy and soulss came to mw the other night. :aok
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P-38J or L is one of the easiest fighters in AH to jump in and do well with. Calling it very hard is a farce.
I wish. I've been flying for years and STILL absolutely stink in the B-38. Which makes me sad as it's my favorite plane. :cry
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daNGIT!!!!!
i must've missed the memo!!!!
seriously, do you even know what SAPP is?
"Sissy And Pansy Pilots" ?
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it's not misjudging speed. the 38 has 2 engines and 2 props to hang on.
also, EVERY plane in the set can rope an opponent under the right conditions.
i've been roped by ponys, la's, 38's 47's 109's and others..........it is a very valid tactic. not a rookie move.
so very true, I have roped people in my Hurri2, and have killed 38's(and many others) trying to rope me in my Hurri, they almost always say "they did not think the hurri could do that..." the rope is easy to spot and defend against.
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P-38J or L is one of the easiest fighters in AH to jump in and do well with. Calling it very hard is a farce.
Karnak, have you lost it? It is pretty low-average in the two basic attributes that noobs can use easiest for kills/survival....turn and speed. Couple that with the fact that it can be dangerous if you don't watch it in dives....the only "easy mode" part of the 38 is the gun aiming and the lack of torque, the latter being of dubious usefulness to the uninitiated anyway, except for take-off.
Me and Batfink tried something the other day. Me, starting off with an alt advantage 38J, him in a SpitIX. Fighting in the vertical to the absolute limit, I got in one burst, that unfortunately for me did not prove fatal, and lost position, so he got me in subsequent maneuvering. Then he tried the 38 and me the SpitIX for a few iterations...I got him each time in that variation. And Batty is an uberstick with a ton of experience in twin-engine designs with nose-mounted firepower. :devil The uber-plane it ain't unless you know your situation and *exactly* what you are doing.
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The reality is the caliber of pilots flying them makes a big difference.
Strip
I agree the majority of the players that fly these have been in the game along time. It's a great plane vertical roll awesome, climb awesome, speed awesome, hard to beat! :aok
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"Sissy And Pansy Pilots" ?
while i disagree, i gotta admit.....that was a funny and snappy comeback, and thankfully i wasn't drinking anything when i read it.
you oughta look int SAPP a little. we tend to want to have fun........and not at the expense of others. :aok
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"Sissy And Pansy Pilots" ?
[Ego]
Ok, even after my 2 month break, I bet I forgot more than you ever knew and can still kill you with ease. Matter of fact, I'm willing to put my theory to the test maybe, hmmm, tomorrow?
[/Ego]
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while i disagree, i gotta admit.....that was a funny and snappy comeback, and thankfully i wasn't drinking anything when i read it.
you oughta look int SAPP a little. we tend to want to have fun........and not at the expense of others. :aok
LOL, i try. what dose it mean. For a long time i thought it was a squad.
Oh wait, i see what it means. So what dose it take to be a member?
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LOL, i try. what dose it mean. For a long time i thought it was a squad.
Ever bothered to look in the signature of those who might have the S.A.P.P. logo?
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Its a "secret" ;)
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LOL, i try. what dose it mean. For a long time i thought it was a squad.
Secret
Association of
P-38
Pile-its
not a squad, but rather a group or pile-its that love the 38, and love flying it, and the most important part.........having fun while flying it too.
after all, if we're not having fun(without deliberatey ruining someone elses), then what's the point?
:aok
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You obviously dont know what S.A.P.P. is all about do you?
Get the facts straight.
He's just mad because the plane that has shot him down the most in the MW has been the P-38 and his success against the P-38 in the LW arenas is just as poor as it is in the MW arena.
No wonder the sight of a P-38 makes him tremble and soil himself out of fear.
ack-ack
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Karnak, have you lost it? It is pretty low-average in the two basic attributes that noobs can use easiest for kills/survival....turn and speed. Couple that with the fact that it can be dangerous if you don't watch it in dives....the only "easy mode" part of the 38 is the gun aiming and the lack of torque, the latter being of dubious usefulness to the uninitiated anyway, except for take-off.
Me and Batfink tried something the other day. Me, starting off with an alt advantage 38J, him in a SpitIX. Fighting in the vertical to the absolute limit, I got in one burst, that unfortunately for me did not prove fatal, and lost position, so he got me in subsequent maneuvering. Then he tried the 38 and me the SpitIX for a few iterations...I got him each time in that variation. And Batty is an uberstick with a ton of experience in twin-engine designs with nose-mounted firepower. :devil The uber-plane it ain't unless you know your situation and *exactly* what you are doing.
ya.....i've taken shots that as i lined em up and fired, almost instantly, i thought " o crap, i just lost this fight". this because i realized a little too late, that i gave up any advantage i had to get that quick shot.
patience is a virtue.
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Vinkman, I think your underestimating how advantageous the neutral torque is.
Watch this film. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tdqfrmjwiyo (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tdqfrmjwiyo)
A P-51 droped on my six while I had to dodge the diving enemy 38. I'm pretty much dead where I stand at point, so I went for a last ditch move that only a 38 can do so effortlessly. At 180 mph I stuck the nose straight up hoping that even though the 51 had about 15 mph over me, he wouldn't be able to hold the move as long. We both stall out at about the same time, except he stalled at 50 mph and I held it to 13 mph. At that point all that was needed was a simple hammerhead over for the kill. The only reason that worked was because of the difference in torque.
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People never learn...the B38 is simply and utterly uber. Case closed.
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This is currently installed in my 38J
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/n100641.jpg)
LOL I guess you need two blenders in case one of them gets shot out. Right? Isn't that the way you B-38 ppl think?
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Well, if you love fly the P-38 and good at it. GREAT! And if being a member is to love flying it and kill other with it. Have at it.
I do have to say that flying a P-38 is not like flying a spit nor trying to fly a 190 effectively. It take a whole different approach to fly it. :salute
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ya.....i've taken shots that as i lined em up and fired, almost instantly, i thought " o crap, i just lost this fight". this because i realized a little too late, that i gave up any advantage i had to get that quick shot.
patience is a virtue.
Torquelessness can only do so much when you're bucking disadvantages in basic wing-loading and thrust/weight. And at the usual fight altitudes in the LW arena the 38 isn't particularly fast either...so surviving your typical furball mix of extremely fast planes and hyper-modeled cannon-spewing dragonflies (that are often enough all too happy to swap-ends and HO if you *do* gain a firing position behind the 3/9) is not exactly "easy mode" flying.
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Well, if you love fly the P-38 and good at it. GREAT! And if being a member is to love flying it and kill other with it. Have at it.
I do have to say that flying a P-38 is not like flying a spit nor trying to fly a 190 effectively. It take a whole different approach to fly it. :salute
you missed part of it.
many many(if not all) of us don't give a dam about killing. me personally......if i have a good fun fight.....it's obviously a little more fun if i win.......but if i lose? who cares? the planes are relatively cheap, and i had fun. FUN is the important part of this equation.
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Vinkman, I think your underestimating how advantageous the neutral torque is.
Watch this film. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tdqfrmjwiyo (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tdqfrmjwiyo)
A P-51 droped on my six while I had to dodge the diving enemy 38. I'm pretty much dead where I stand at point, so I went for a last ditch move that only a 38 can do so effortlessly. At 180 mph I stuck the nose straight up hoping that even though the 51 had about 15 mph over me, he wouldn't be able to hold the move as long. We both stall out at about the same time, except he stalled at 50 mph and I held it to 13 mph. At that point all that was needed was a simple hammerhead over for the kill. The only reason that worked was because of the difference in torque.
Fine kill, Cactus.
The 51 went up with you with far too much(full!) flaps in. In fact, on the dive before you went up, he had too much flaps in which impeded his ability to build E. You did a fine job of capitalizing on this error <S>
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you missed part of it.
many many(if not all) of us don't give a dam about killing. me personally......if i have a good fun fight.....it's obviously a little more fun if i win.......but if i lose? who cares? the planes are relatively cheap, and i had fun. FUN is the important part of this equation.
Thats cool. But what about the handing it part?
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BTW are you the Vinkman from the early days of AW?
One and the same. I used to fly AW back in '95 for about a year then had to give it up. Just got discovered AH in April or may I think. This is a huge improvement. What was your handle in the AW days?
Back then my handle was FLS but I was after your time.
Thud just dug this up and we were looking at it yesterday on the Muskie list server and I'd noticed your handle.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.air-warrior/browse_thread/thread/d9d2d457b8d5701f/8cfcea6337bf034d?q=airwarrior+campaign+results#8cfcea6337bf034
Dual throttles are a huge advantage which is why the SAPP guys all use them and lie about it. :devil
Seriously, as I said earlier, try the Hammerhead and stall/spin recovery. Try them with one engine and with two and make up your own mind. :salute
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I love it how guys who say this have invariably spent hours getting really lethal in their favorite plane...admit it, you're in this for the Schadenfreude just like me.
you missed part of it.
many many(if not all) of us don't give a dam about killing. me personally......if i have a good fun fight.....it's obviously a little more fun if i win.......but if i lose? who cares? the planes are relatively cheap, and i had fun. FUN is the important part of this equation.
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I love it how guys who say this have invariably spent hours getting really lethal in their favorite plane...admit it, you're in this for the Schadenfreude just like me.
i spend my time learnign to survive a fight.
i average less then 50 hours a month. in fact, i think i'm in the 30 hour range this month...and that's high.
and i don't know what schadenfreude is/means?
i forgot...i'm highly talented at landing too.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/lookinbad2.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/sapp5.jpg)
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funny thread. we're just THAT uber, thanks for noticing.
edit: Aww, i'm not that uber...4.7 K/D in the PJ. :(
wtg 8:1 K/Ders :)
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38s suck
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and i don't know what schadenfreude is/means?
Then take a listen to this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCQGQ5qBQTA&feature=player_embedded
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See that last picture CAP posted? You see all those tracers? Those aren't ack rounds. Those are actually flying out of CAP's 38's butt.
Does that answer the k/d question?
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P38s suck!! Dont fly them! Evveerrr! :devil
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See that last picture CAP posted? You see all those tracers? Those aren't ack rounds. Those are actually flying out of CAP's 38.
Does that answer the k/d question?
that would be the
.deathstar command.
:noid :noid
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Maybe it's the stealth mode that enables us to fly through hangars without being seen.
(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/B4B/salutewirbs.png)
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Then take a listen to this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCQGQ5qBQTA&feature=player_embedded
"Schadenfreude? What's that, some some kind of Nazi word?"
"Yes, it's German for the happiness in the misfortune of others."
"Happiness in the misfortune of others? That IS German!"
:rofl
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funny thread. we're just THAT uber, thanks for noticing.
edit: Aww, i'm not that uber...4.7 K/D in the PJ. :(
wtg 8:1 K/Ders :)
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
you think YOU'RE bad?
i just had to go look at mine.........
1.3 k/d.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
you think YOU'RE bad?
i just had to go look at mine.........
1.3 k/d.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
I will admit I was shocked my K/D was that high considering all the crap I fly into :)
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S.A.P.P. People are EVIL!!
(http://charterblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/medium_dr_evil_1.jpg)
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<<< 1.3. Sigh
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just looked,
pony is the plane I kill the most, Spit 16 is the plane I kill second most. That was shocking too, can't catch the ponys usually.
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I will admit I was shocked my K/D was that high considering all the crap I fly into :)
speaking of flying into crap........
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/corralingthem.jpg)
my incredible sa skillz.....
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/notsoeasy.jpg)
and this is whatcha git if ya keep pickin on me, and tryin to shoot my airplane......i throw things atcha!
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/2v1lastresort.jpg)
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just looked,
pony is the plane I kill the most, Spit 16 is the plane I kill second most. That was shocking too, can't catch the ponys usually.
f6f, then 38j.
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Karnak, have you lost it? It is pretty low-average in the two basic attributes that noobs can use easiest for kills/survival....turn and speed. Couple that with the fact that it can be dangerous if you don't watch it in dives....the only "easy mode" part of the 38 is the gun aiming and the lack of torque, the latter being of dubious usefulness to the uninitiated anyway, except for take-off.
Me and Batfink tried something the other day. Me, starting off with an alt advantage 38J, him in a SpitIX. Fighting in the vertical to the absolute limit, I got in one burst, that unfortunately for me did not prove fatal, and lost position, so he got me in subsequent maneuvering. Then he tried the 38 and me the SpitIX for a few iterations...I got him each time in that variation. And Batty is an uberstick with a ton of experience in twin-engine designs with nose-mounted firepower. :devil The uber-plane it ain't unless you know your situation and *exactly* what you are doing.
The vast majority of targets you shoot in this game have no idea how to fight, so using Batfink or yourself as an opponent does not reflect on the actual ease of use. The fact is that the P-38J and even more the P-38L are very easy to succeed with. They have few vices and a lot of strengths. They are not as easy as the Spit XVI or VIII or N1K2, but they are easier than the Ki-84.
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just looked,
pony is the plane I kill the most, Spit 16 is the plane I kill second most. That was shocking too, can't catch the ponys usually.
In the MW arena, Spitfire Mk IX and the F6F-5 tie for first as my tops kills (21) with the C.205 taking 2nd place with 17 kills against it. Combined total deaths from these three planes is only 9 (2 for F6F-5, 2 for C.205 and 5 for Spitfire Mk IX). In the LW arena, the P-51D takes top honors as the plane I've shot down the most and the Spitfire Mk XIV takes 2nd place with 10 kills against it. Total combined deaths from these two planes is 4 (2 for P-51D and 2 for Spitfire Mk XVI).
ack-ack
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That was shocking too, can't catch the ponys usually.
:rolleyes:
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:rolleyes:
I think I offended someone :aok
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I think I offended someone :aok
Nope. I just think you're full of it.
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Nope. I just think you're full of it.
:lol
Steve, it's called the runstang for a reason :aok
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speaking of flying into crap........
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/corralingthem.jpg)
my incredible sa skillz.....
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/notsoeasy.jpg)
and this is whatcha git if ya keep pickin on me, and tryin to shoot my airplane......i throw things atcha!
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/2v1lastresort.jpg)
Not bad, I took this the other day. I was trying to egress a bit but died shortly after this screen shot was taken
(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/B4B/ahss10.jpg)
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The vast majority of targets you shoot in this game have no idea how to fight, so using Batfink or yourself as an opponent does not reflect on the actual ease of use. The fact is that the P-38J and even more the P-38L are very easy to succeed with. They have few vices and a lot of strengths. They are not as easy as the Spit XVI or VIII or N1K2, but they are easier than the Ki-84.
actually, if the 38 were so easy, then 2 excellent pile-its doing the experiment they did, would've proven your point,......when 2 excellent pile-its jump into an airplane, and try to fight in it....unsuccessfully at that...against each other, it proves, that yes martha, it is a difficult airplane to fight in.
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Not bad, I took this the other day. I was trying to egress a bit but died shortly after this screen shot was taken
(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/B4B/ahss10.jpg)
bich!!
you got 6 killz??????? :rofl :aok
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:lol
Steve, it's called the runstang for a reason :aok
Well maybe you'll encounter one that doesn't run one day. Then we'll see how you do. :)
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LOL I guess you need two blenders in case one of them gets shot out. Right? Isn't that the way you B-38 ppl think?
Uh... yeah... that's the ticket :D
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The vast majority of targets you shoot in this game have no idea how to fight, so using Batfink or yourself as an opponent does not reflect on the actual ease of use. The fact is that the P-38J and even more the P-38L are very easy to succeed with. They have few vices and a lot of strengths. They are not as easy as the Spit XVI or VIII or N1K2, but they are easier than the Ki-84.
I'll have to disagree. Put two equal pilots in a fight, Ki-84 v P-38 and the Ki will win. I also feel the Ki-84 is easier to fly, unless you're dumb enough to put it in a dive.
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Well maybe you'll encounter one that doesn't run one day. Then we'll see how you do. :)
The ones that turn never seem to cause too much of a problem :)
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"Put two equal pilots in a fight, Ki-84 v P-38 and the Ki will win."
Nope. Each pilot would each use thier aircraft to thier strengths and
one would come out on top simply because that one did not make
an error..
And if neither pilot makes an error then they'll come to a draw cause
a 38 pilot won't go for the 84 game and vice-versa.
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"Put two equal pilots in a fight, Ki-84 v P-38 and the Ki will win."
Nope. Each pilot would each use thier aircraft to thier strengths and
one would come out on top simply because that one did not make
an error..
a Ki-84 will out climb (or atleast climb with) , out roll, out run, and out turn a 38. with two equal pilots, the Ki-84 will win.
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I'll have to disagree. Put two equal pilots in a fight, Ki-84 v P-38 and the Ki will win. I also feel the Ki-84 is easier to fly, unless you're dumb enough to put it in a dive.
Yeah, the Ki is much easier to fly than the 38. Me and suns are generally equal pilots and we did 10 p38 vs ki84 duels 5 each and switched and it wasn't even close. Ki84 blew the 38 out of the water. Score 8-2 and the 2 the 38 did win was when he cut throttle and sold out to a shot and luckily connected.
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Yeah, the Ki is much easier to fly than the 38. Me and suns are generally equal pilots and we did 10 p38 vs ki84 duels 5 each and switched and it wasn't even close. Ki84 blew the 38 out of the water. Score 8-2 and the 2 the 38 did win was when he cut throttle and sold out to a shot and luckily connected.
I remember you always kicking my arse 38 v Ki-84 aswell :lol
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I remember you always kicking my arse 38 v Ki-84 aswell :lol
Both planes are very similar in the fact they both have great stability perfect for mouse flying pilots, aka Lazer in the 38 and Rud3boi in the Ki.
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Well maybe you'll encounter one that doesn't run one day. Then we'll see how you do. :)
the only time i generally encounter ponys in mw, is guys that have the time to climb above the fight, then they pick, time after time.
when they lose their alt and/or e-advantage, then decide it's time to extend about 1.5 sectors, and await the right time to come back and pick some more.
i forget who it was, but there was a good ponyb stick in mw for awhile. he turned that thing like nobodys business. it was amazing to see, even though he was kicking my cartoon arse.
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the only time i generally encounter ponys in mw, is guys that have the time to climb above the fight, then they pick, time after time.
when they lose their alt and/or e-advantage, then decide it's time to extend about 1.5 sectors, and await the right time to come back and pick some more.
i forget who it was, but there was a good ponyb stick in mw for awhile. he turned that thing like nobodys business. it was amazing to see, even though he was kicking my cartoon arse.
Might have been Strip, he's pretty darned good in a B pony.
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Yea, Strip's amazing. He's in the DA often now.
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actually, if the 38 were so easy, then 2 excellent pile-its doing the experiment they did, would've proven your point,......when 2 excellent pile-its jump into an airplane, and try to fight in it....unsuccessfully at that...against each other, it proves, that yes martha, it is a difficult airplane to fight in.
Quite the opposite. The P-38 is so easy to hit with and is tough enough to take a bit of thumping that when you put people in a brawl while they don't really know what they are doing, it comes out much better. Yes, Spitfires IX, VIII and XVI will do better as will the N1K2-J, but I can't think of any other fighter that is as easy as the P-38. I am no expert sim-pilot like some here, but the P-38 has what is needed for beginners. I know P-38 drivers in this game like to talk themselves up as the best of the best doing well in a dog, but it just ain't so.
You're doing well in the next best thing to a Spitfire.
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Vink, this video was taken with me in my 38, and a K4 enthusiast. I told him i wouldn't shoot, and he tried to see if he could hang on longer than I.
This is what I feel to be a fairly well executed hammerhead and why the 38 is so deadly in the vert. (19 second clip)
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?wkgjzljj2ok (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?wkgjzljj2ok)
Looks pretty bad arse if you watch it from his view :devil
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Quite the opposite. The P-38 is so easy to hit with and is tough enough to take a bit of thumping that when you put people in a brawl while they don't really know what they are doing, it comes out much better. Yes, Spitfires IX, VIII and XVI will do better as will the N1K2-J, but I can't think of any other fighter that is as easy as the P-38. I am no expert sim-pilot like some here, but the P-38 has what is needed for beginners. I know P-38 drivers in this game like to talk themselves up as the best of the best doing well in a dog, but it just ain't so.
You're doing well in the next best thing to a Spitfire.
i believe that he said the 38 lost in his and the other dudes hands.
and to me, a hurri is better than a spitfire(for the fights i find myself in anyway), as is the zeek.
i think my progression was hurri2, zeek2, spit5 spit9 spit16(i don't understand what you guys see in that one..i can't fly it for poop), zeek5, f6f-5, then p38j, now working on the p38g.
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Might have been Strip, he's pretty darned good in a B pony.
you meant the good ponyb stick, right?
it could've been.
i wish more would fly it like that. the fights i'm talking about were those ones that have your heart pounding, and you're sweatin heavy when it's done. :aok
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Quite the opposite. The P-38 is so easy to hit with and is tough enough to take a bit of thumping that when you put people in a brawl while they don't really know what they are doing, it comes out much better. Yes, Spitfires IX, VIII and XVI will do better as will the N1K2-J, but I can't think of any other fighter that is as easy as the P-38. I am no expert sim-pilot like some here, but the P-38 has what is needed for beginners. I know P-38 drivers in this game like to talk themselves up as the best of the best doing well in a dog, but it just ain't so.
You're doing well in the next best thing to a Spitfire.
The next best thing to a Spitfire? What a joke. Just the fact that it's such a magnet for the masses who can't aim and it's incredible size make it one of the more difficult planes to survive in.
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The next best thing to a Spitfire? What a joke. Just the fact that it's such a magnet for the masses who can't aim and it's incredible size make it one of the more difficult planes to survive in.
actually when flown properly, it is very hard to hit. look at one from dead 6. it's no bigger looking than a pony.
i sometimes manage to cause a picker or bnz'er ty miss by getting "skinny"
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P-38 has one of the smallest plane profiles in the game. It is by no means easy to hit with a experience stick behind the yoke.
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The vast majority of targets you shoot in this game have no idea how to fight, so using Batfink or yourself as an opponent does not reflect on the actual ease of use. The fact is that the P-38J and even more the P-38L are very easy to succeed with. They have few vices and a lot of strengths. They are not as easy as the Spit XVI or VIII or N1K2, but they are easier than the Ki-84.
The P-38's great strengths compared to the rest of the LW set basically come down to its torque-less nature and its nose mounted firepower. For it to be "easy" to succeed with, you have to be seriously claiming that these two things are more important attributes in a plane for the inexperienced than turn performance, speed, and having multiple cannons, many airplanes having at least one and sometimes two of these things as an advantage over the 38. Hell, SpitVIIIs and SpitXVIs are just as fast and have superior turn and thrust/weight, Corsairs have superior speed and turn radius, late model 109s have all three advantages...
You put it a 38L in a multiple bandit scenario in the LW MA, and much more than virtually any other LW plane you have to really choose your situations, else you'll get in a corner where you are out-numbered and can't extend because the sky is filled with much faster planes and also dedicated turners waiting to get on you when the bnz planes force you to turn. Nor can it plunge into a 550mph dive to gain some breathing room like a Jug or Corsair. On top of that, the 38 is a large target, conventionally flown.
And your Ki-84 example? Have you gone *completely* balmy? I know I don't fly it in the MA, but I've got enough DA time in it to know how it handles. Its a poor man's SpitXVI. If the SpitXVI were not free, the Ki-84 would probably be one of the most popular rides.
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In a spit ignore them.
Once the 38 gets flustered and tired of hanging around he will make a mistake.
Then get him to turn and drop his E, the rest is easy.
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I know P-38 drivers in this game like to talk themselves up as the best of the best doing well in a dog, but it just ain't so.
You're doing well in the next best thing to a Spitfire.
I just saw this...OMG... :rofl
You DO know the P-38J/L has a larger tested turn radius than the P-47 D-11 or any 109 variant dontcha?
I'm not one of the 38's uber fanbois, but I will tell you: If you beat a Spit, 109, or Corsair from anything resembling a fair 1v1 with the 38, you have surely demonstrated above average ACM.
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Quite the opposite. The P-38 is so easy to hit with and is tough enough to take a bit of thumping that when you put people in a brawl while they don't really know what they are doing, it comes out much better. Yes, Spitfires IX, VIII and XVI will do better as will the N1K2-J, but I can't think of any other fighter that is as easy as the P-38. I am no expert sim-pilot like some here, but the P-38 has what is needed for beginners. I know P-38 drivers in this game like to talk themselves up as the best of the best doing well in a dog, but it just ain't so.
You're doing well in the next best thing to a Spitfire.
Interesting take on the 38..... the bench your sitting on is lonely isn't it.
What do you fly? I don't ever remember seeing you in the arena.
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a Ki-84 will out climb (or atleast climb with) , out roll, out run, and out turn a 38. with two equal pilots, the Ki-84 will win.
Well, the only thing is the P-38 can deploy its flaps earlier than the Ki-84 can and the experienced P-38 pilot will take advantage of that. Also the Ki-84 becomes sluggish at higher speeds, another area where the P-38 can take advantage of to get inside of a Ki-84's turn. When the Ki-84 is at the speed where it can deploy its flaps, then it will be all over the P-38 if both are at similiar speeds.
As Westy pointed out, P-38 vs. Ki-84 matchup the victory goes to the pilot that makes the 1st mistake, just like any other matchup between similiar experienced pilots.
ack-ack
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Interesting take on the 38..... the bench your sitting on is lonely isn't it.
What do you fly? I don't ever remember seeing you in the arena.
Just on principle I got to point that truth is not determined by a show of hands.
He flies the Mossi...compared to that the 38 IS easy-mode. :aok
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Just on principle I got to point that truth is not determined by a show of hands.
He flies the Mossi...compared to that the 38 IS easy-mode. :aok
Hmm I found the mossie pretty easy personally. As is the A20.
Just checked.. he doesn't fly much does he.
Show of hands is generally folks saying what their experience is. Nothing more... nothing less. Like I said.... he must be lonely on that bench.
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Quite the opposite. The P-38 is so easy to hit with and is tough enough to take a bit of thumping that when you put people in a brawl while they don't really know what they are doing, it comes out much better. Yes, Spitfires IX, VIII and XVI will do better as will the N1K2-J, but I can't think of any other fighter that is as easy as the P-38. I am no expert sim-pilot like some here, but the P-38 has what is needed for beginners. I know P-38 drivers in this game like to talk themselves up as the best of the best doing well in a dog, but it just ain't so.
You're doing well in the next best thing to a Spitfire.
I'm sorry but a new pilot or even an average or veteran pilot that doesn't know how to use the flaps, rudders and throttle properly in conjunction with each other will not be very successful in the Lightning or doesn't know the limitations/weaknesses or strengths of the P-38 will not be all that successful and will find it tough to fly the P-38.
The P-38 is not a plane for new or inexperienced players that are hoping to be competitive at the start, especially if they angles fight. The only area in which a new or inexperienced player that is starting to fly the P-38 may enjoy some amount of success is if they fly the Lightning using Energy fighting tactics like Boom and Zoom where they don't have to worry about turning with the bandit. If a new or inexperienced player hopping in a P-38 tries to turn fight with a Spitfire without a good grasp how fly a P-38 in an angles fight situation, the P-38 driver won't last very long.
I've always said that the P-38 is a plane for those that are at least at the medium skill level or greater to be able to take full advantage of what the Lightning is capable of.
ack-ack
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Most pee 38 drivers fly in pairs.
Was this mentioned in this thread? Sorry I didn't want to read all of it.
Why did the original author use so many scientific terms on a simple tactic that can just be called the rope? Don't follow. This holds true for ANY plane with a higher E state.
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Interesting take on the 38..... the bench your sitting on is lonely isn't it.
What do you fly? I don't ever remember seeing you in the arena.
a lazyboy. :rofl :noid
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I'm sorry but a new pilot or even an average or veteran pilot that doesn't know how to use the flaps, rudders and throttle properly in conjunction with each other will not be very successful in the Lightning or doesn't know the limitations/weaknesses or strengths of the P-38 will not be all that successful and will find it tough to fly the P-38.
The P-38 is not a plane for new or inexperienced players that are hoping to be competitive at the start, especially if they angles fight. The only area in which a new or inexperienced player that is starting to fly the P-38 may enjoy some amount of success is if they fly the Lightning using Energy fighting tactics like Boom and Zoom where they don't have to worry about turning with the bandit. If a new or inexperienced player hopping in a P-38 tries to turn fight with a Spitfire without a good grasp how fly a P-38 in an angles fight situation, the P-38 driver won't last very long.
I've always said that the P-38 is a plane for those that are at least at the medium skill level or greater to be able to take full advantage of what the Lightning is capable of.
ack-ack
Did you mean know how to press ten buttons on the joy/throttle on their desk at precisely the right time and order? :confused:
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Did you mean know how to press ten buttons on the joy/throttle on their desk at precisely the right time and order? :confused:
actually, my flaps are on a single button. :D
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So much knowledge for such little experience :rolleyes:
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Did you mean know how to press ten buttons on the joy/throttle on their desk at precisely the right time and order? :confused:
When to deploy or retract flaps, when to give more throttle or decrease throttle so you don't ever speed in a nose low turn, how to use your rudders in conjuction with your flaps to turn tighter. How to dive at high speeds, riding the edge of compressability while keeping control of the Lightning. Now, if you think you can fly the P-38 as well as any experienced Lightning driver in the game, I will be more than willing to show you how incorrect you are. We can do a series of 1v1 P-38 fights and I will guarantee that you will not survive past the 2nd turn after the merge.
I am not saying it's a hard plane to fly but it's not an easy plane either for someone that is new or inexperienced or even for a veteran player that doesn't know how to 'fly' the Lightning.
ack-ack
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Cheater
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There is a reason the Germans called them "Forked-Tailed Devil"
The Werchmant guys referred to them as FTD cause of teh bombas. Not the Luftwafffe guys. I have a question on the P38 in AH:
1) Has it undergone a FM makeover since it was first introduced? I used to fly it back in the early days and that thought it pretty much sucked. Then I took some time off around 2005 and when I came back late 2007..maybe early 08, the damned thing flew like a dream. I know I didnt get any better.....thought it was odd.
The only reason I ask is that I would like the 51s to get a similar rewrite if the 38 did in fact get one.
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Most pee 38 drivers fly in pairs.
Maybe they do in LW...just cause there are so many of them. In MW they tend to fly alone because nobody likes them :aok
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Most pee 38 drivers fly in pairs.
Was this mentioned in this thread? Sorry I didn't want to read all of it.
Why did the original author use so many scientific terms on a simple tactic that can just be called the rope? Don't follow. This holds true for ANY plane with a higher E state.
The 82nd does. We train in Elements and working in pairs. Two 38s that are experienced will cause havok for a bandit or several.
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Maybe they do in LW...just cause there are so many of them. In MW they tend to fly alone because nobody likes them :aok
and if ya watch the 200 text in mw, you'll see i have much more than my share of P.A.H.'s. :noid
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Wingmen, or bait. What ever works for me.
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Wingmen, or bait. What ever works for me.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< is bait
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The 38 is NOT an easy plane to learn. I been flying it the past couple tours and still haven't gotten a handle on it. :salute
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Because of flap and throttle management needs to be good in a 38, I respectfully disagree with Karnak. Compared to the spits, niki and such rides, the 38 is quite "hands on".
Karnak is right that it's a very capable plane though. It's certainly not the dog some profess it to be: Good turn under flaps, good authority when fast or slow, fantastic in the vert, good views, wonderful gun package. He's right in that it has no vices, beyond it's large profile from above/below. This is somewhat compensated for by its very slim profile at dead 6. It outclasses many planes in the MA, and most planes with a driver who is adept at throttle/flap management.
It does tend to attract more than it's share of attnetion in the MA though. This isn't a vice per se and just a personal observation but it seems so. I'd consider this a disadvantage.
There are some real flat out killers in the 38, too. Look at some of the various SAPP guys... then Lazer and Del. Those two are among the best at the craft of killing bad guys in the MA. AKAK has shown that a 38 with alt is about unkillable 1v1. He gets bored, blows his E to kill a couple of guys, and only then can he be taken down.
to the guy who said 109's out turn a 38... well that's just not entirely true. Any 38 over 250 or so is going to rather easily out turn and of the 109's.
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P-38 profile information:
http://home.att.net/~ww2aircraft/Profiles.html
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Regarding the original topic,
Long ago Frenchy held a 1 month K/D competition for the P-47D-25. Here's the results:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,93933.0.html
Two guys had 100+ K/D
Overall K/D for the D-25 in that tour (42) was 1.87, the highest for any unperked plane. I'm assuming the C-hog and Ta152 were both perked at the time, cant really remember though. Anyway it shows what's possible.
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The 38 is NOT an easy plane to learn. I been flying it the past couple tours and still haven't gotten a handle on it. :salute
Next to the spitfire the P38 is by FAR the easiest plane to learn quickly and do well in. It has its little quirks but it is, overall, the best fighter in AH.
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to the guy who said 109's out turn a 38... well that's just not entirely true. Any 38 over 250 or so is going to rather easily out turn and of the 109's.
This statement does not make any sense, for a number of reasons:
The 109s do not experience begin experiencing aileron and elevator problems until well past 250mph IAS. The 109 has enough elevator authority to pull blackout Gs until you get very near 400mph. 250mph is getting close to the corner speed of both aircraft...much faster and the limiting factor will be the pilot's G endurance...so it does not make sense to speak of one airplane "out-turning" the other in this high-speed range. The range where the P-38 can deploy flaps and the 109 can not yet is *below* ~250mph IAS down to ~170...that would seem to be the "sweet spot" for turning with a 109 in a P-38 if there is one.
Did a quick test, and the instantaneous turn of a 109K4 from ~250mph IAS with full fuel was perceptibly sharper than that of a 38L with 75%. The G2's was much sharper, easily pulling "tunnel" Gs at that airspeed. So I do not know what this supposed turning superiority above 250mph IAS can refer to, unless it is perhaps some putative ability to decelerate down to corner speed when starting at speeds well above corner.
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This statement does not make any sense, for a number of reasons:
The 109s do not experience begin experiencing aileron and elevator problems until well past 250mph IAS. The 109 has enough elevator authority to pull blackout Gs until you get very near 400mph. 250mph is getting close to the corner speed of both aircraft...much faster and the limiting factor will be the pilot's G endurance...so it does not make sense to speak of one airplane "out-turning" the other in this high-speed range. The range where the P-38 can deploy flaps and the 109 can not yet is *below* ~250mph IAS down to ~170...that would seem to be the "sweet spot" for turning with a 109 in a P-38 if there is one.
Did a quick test, and the instantaneous turn of a 109K4 from ~250mph IAS with full fuel was perceptibly sharper than that of a 38L with 75%. The G2's was much sharper, easily pulling "tunnel" Gs at that airspeed. So I do not know what this supposed turning superiority above 250mph IAS can refer to, unless it is perhaps some putative ability to decelerate down to corner speed when starting at speeds well above corner.
You argue for argument's sake, it's your MO. Get in a 109, I'll get in a 38. If we agree to stay over 250 or so, I'll smoke you every time, I don't care what 109 you're in. Other than DA arrangements, I have nothing more to say on the matter to you.
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In a spit ignore them.
Once the 38 gets flustered and tired of hanging around he will make a mistake.
Then get him to turn and drop his E, the rest is easy.
As one who trolls for Spits down low, I try and appear flustered to get them to turn fight my 38G low and slow. Always good fun :)
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You know in the end, this is all Corky's fault. He hasn't been trashing as many 38's so often. :P
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The P38 is junk and every kill it gets is a proxie!(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/Drinking.gif)
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Next to the spitfire the P38 is by FAR the easiest plane to learn quickly and do well in. It has its little quirks but it is, overall, the best fighter in AH.
Pending on how you fly it; I would place the 190, f4u, fm2, hurrIIc, n1k, a6m, typhoon, P51, la7, la5, and spitfire all as easier to learn. If you fly it as a BnZ machine then go ahead and throw it into that mix along with the P47, Ki-84, mossie, 109, 152 and 205 (that basically covers the LW birds).
As for using it to it's fullest potential, it is among the more difficult planes to learn IMO.
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P38+flaps= PWN
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I am not one of the better sticks in the 38, most nights I am lucky enough to hit something once in a while. Well, stuff besides trees and the ground in general, that is.
I was hoping that many of the people spreading the erroneous information would attend my P38 clinic, I was even hoping for some 109 sticks to come and see how best to fight the P38.
Maybe I should hold a repeat of the first clinic before I hold the second one. Anyone interested?
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I am not one of the better sticks in the 38, most nights I am lucky enough to hit something once in a while. Well, stuff besides trees and the ground in general, that is.
I was hoping that many of the people spreading the erroneous information would attend my P38 clinic, I was even hoping for some 109 sticks to come and see how best to fight the P38.
Maybe I should hold a repeat of the first clinic before I hold the second one. Anyone interested?
I am. But I'd rather do 1 vs 1 time with you.
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I have a solution to the 38's stall/rudder over manuever.....DONT FRAKKING CLIMB WITH IT!!! :aok
EDIT:(unless you have a MASSIVE E advantage that u gotta get rid of)
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Maybe I should hold a repeat of the first clinic before I hold the second one. Anyone interested?
ready for part deux. :x
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The Werchmant guys referred to them as FTD cause of teh bombas. Not the Luftwafffe guys. I have a question on the P38 in AH:
1) Has it undergone a FM makeover since it was first introduced? I used to fly it back in the early days and that thought it pretty much sucked. Then I took some time off around 2005 and when I came back late 2007..maybe early 08, the damned thing flew like a dream. I know I didnt get any better.....thought it was odd.
The only reason I ask is that I would like the 51s to get a similar rewrite if the 38 did in fact get one.
Some were made heavier awhile back.
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there is something clearly wrong with the p-38L !!!! :noid
P-38G 2 0
P-38J 7 3
P-38L 6 6
it is too ugly to have a 1-1 k/d vs. my beautiful FW-190a8 :huh ...
oh sorry, i looked deeper and in the clearly superior FW-190a8 i am 5/3 sooo never mind :aok
srsly though it does raise some eyebrows maneuvering as it does being one of the biggest heaviest fighters of the war(the heaviest USAAF fighter),
floats like a Huey too (ya right whatever "couBSgh"),
does not auger or fold up nearly enough for how it is flown in here(of course none of the planes do)
and those nifty air breaks combined with the "virtual fairie dust flaps" do result in some "interesting" maneuvers (stinker bell engineering)
...
i would be much happier if i saw them depart more often in that deservedly unrecoverable way, which was the real trade off for all that weight, torque, and huge adjustments in airfoil while maneuvering ...
but hey since none of those trixy trix are ACM, and either a crutch or an act of desperation you can do just fine vs the "split tails" ... :rofl
after all i haven't been here that long and i am having no trouble with them whatsoever ...
no offense and mostly meant as humor ..
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t
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srsly though it does raise some eyebrows maneuvering as it does being one of the biggest heaviest fighters of the war(the heaviest USAAF fighter),
rethink that
After reading your posts since being on this board, I'm wondering where you get any of your info.
I hope this isn't some type of bait...Will do my best not to swallow the hook. :uhoh
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was the twin pony heavier ???
didn't really consider that one, not even sure i should ...
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I'm sorry, are you talking loaded weight or empty?
I was always under the impression the P-47 loaded was heavier. If i'm wrong I apologize.
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rethink that
After reading your posts since being on this board, I'm wondering where you get any of your info.
I hope this isn't some type of bait...Will do my best not to swallow the hook. :uhoh
maybe you should look again, i have a pretty good idea what you are thinking ...
as far as what i post goes ...
i have been having these discussions for 12 years and you will find that i am most often correct, or at least presenting a very very valid point. if you find yourself consistently disagreeing with me it is most likely your point of view that you need to be concerned with. i may be a Fan of some planes, as we all are, but some of those planes will surprise you, and after arguing with "fanboys" for so many years i am pretty much unable to post BS and have little tolerance for others posting BS as "fact", and even less for those who accuse me of posting BS.
when you check the weights and find that you are incorrect i am sure you will come back here and state that publicly, right?
mmmk thanks,
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t
t
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Next to the spitfire the P38 is by FAR the easiest plane to learn quickly and do well in. It has its little quirks but it is, overall, the best fighter in AH.
could you then please explain why pile-its such as myself, were scoring, and landing kills in a spit5 in only a couple of flights? yet after about 3 years in ah, it took a week or so to be able to score and land kills in the 38?
spitfire needs no flap management. it needs no real throttle management. if you make a mistake in it, it covers you, and it recovers fast. i am not meaning this derogatorily towards spit drivers...i realize they take skill to succeed in too.
p38 NEEDS throttle management. without flaps, you ain't surviving against anyone. you NEED to learn to use the rudder properly, and at the right times, whereas in other planes, you can get away without it.
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I'm sorry, are you talking loaded weight or empty?
I was always under the impression the P-47 loaded was heavier. If i'm wrong I apologize.
yea well only 3-4 thousand pounds ...
now you could take off with as much weight in the jugg as the 38 but that just means the jugg carried more ord., of course the 38 could carry its ord farther ...
apology accepted, and kudos for posting it ...
my apology for the snippy reply but i don't like being accused of being FOS or being ASSUMED to be such.
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t
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Next to the spitfire the P38 is by FAR the easiest plane to learn quickly and do well in. It has its little quirks but it is, overall, the best fighter in AH.
easiest next to the spit?
zeek2, zeek5, hurri2....ooo....wait....they're easier.
f6f
hardest? i think, in no particular order......
p38, p51, any of the fw's, ta152, p40, p47, and i think the 109's too.
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I am not one of the better sticks in the 38, most nights I am lucky enough to hit something once in a while. Well, stuff besides trees and the ground in general, that is.
I was hoping that many of the people spreading the erroneous information would attend my P38 clinic, I was even hoping for some 109 sticks to come and see how best to fight the P38.
Maybe I should hold a repeat of the first clinic before I hold the second one. Anyone interested?
yesyesyesyesyes YES!!!! please.
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i think that possibly the 38 will cover up some more mistakes than most of the others.
all those options really really expand it's envelope ...
but it is very hands on in the process.
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maybe you should look again, i have a pretty good idea what you are thinking ...
as far as what i post goes ...
i have been having these discussions for 12 years and you will find that i am most often correct, or at least presenting a very very valid point. if you find yourself consistently disagreeing with me it is most likely your point of view that you need to be concerned with. i may be a Fan of some planes, as we all are, but some of those planes will surprise you, and after arguing with "fanboys" for so many years i am pretty much unable to post BS and have little tolerance for others posting BS as "fact", and even less for those who accuse me of posting BS.
when you check the weights and find that you are incorrect i am sure you will come back here and state that publicly, right?
mmmk thanks,
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t
any chance you've read anytthing about the 38? she was an amazing aircraft, and a fairly well engineered one too. she was capable of a lot of things that might surprise you.
and yes, she could turn very well. AKAK quoted some AAR reports in another p38 thread to show this. possibly he could add them here for your, and others benifit.
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i think that possibly the 38 will cover up some more mistakes than most of the others.
all those options really really expand it's envelope ...
but it is very hands on in the process.
trust me......i've made every mistake in the book, in spits, zeeks, hellkitties, 38's 39's......the 38 although a deadly aircraft(in the right hands), is a VERY harsh mistress.
if you screw up, she'll slam ya.
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any chance you've read anytthing about the 38? she was an amazing aircraft, and a fairly well engineered one too. she was capable of a lot of things that might surprise you.
and yes, she could turn very well. AKAK quoted some AAR reports in another p38 thread to show this. possibly he could add them here for your, and others benifit.
yes i have read a lot, it is a very interesting aircraft. i wont debate it's quality with you as it was clearly effective.
i will state that my comments are more on the lines of ...
in these video games the p38 will surprise you more often than most other planes will and that is what i was speaking about, not so much the actual performance of the plane historically.
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yes i have read a lot, it is a very interesting aircraft. i wont debate it's quality with you as it was clearly effective.
i will state that my comments are more on the lines of ...
in these video games the p38 will surprise you more often than most other planes will and that is what i was speaking about, not so much the actual performance of the plane historically.
i have the answer to that too.
i've said it before.
there's 2 kinds of pile-its in the 38.
1)those that excel in her.
2)those that suck in her.
those that ecel in her are lower numbers. most attack a 38, assuming it's a type 2 pile-it, so they relax their stance a little, thinking "easy kill". they're surprised when they find it's a type 1 pile-it behind the cartoon controls. :devil
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trust me......i've made every mistake in the book, in spits, zeeks, hellkitties, 38's 39's......the 38 although a deadly aircraft(in the right hands), is a VERY harsh mistress.
if you screw up, she'll slam ya.
i am sure, but it does have the flaps, air breaks, and nifty twin engines to play with.
FYI i meant ACM mistakes more than flying mistakes ...
i am sure it would bite you if you stepped on it to hard, at least it should if modeled near correctly.
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t
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well like i said i was speaking of the FM not the pilots, however i see you point the 38 has a lot of tricks up its sleeve in these video games, that is why it probably attracts a lot of trixy pilots.
no offense to anyone i am sure it can be fun to fly, and this is a game after all.
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t
i have the answer to that too.
i've said it before.
there's 2 kinds of pile-its in the 38.
1)those that excel in her.
2)those that suck in her.
those that ecel in her are lower numbers. most attack a 38, assuming it's a type 2 pile-it, so they relax their stance a little, thinking "easy kill". they're surprised when they find it's a type 1 pile-it behind the cartoon controls. :devil
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i am sure, but it does have the flaps, air breaks, and nifty twin engines to play with.
FYI i meant ACM mistakes more than flying mistakes ...
i am sure it would bite you if you stepped on it to hard, at least it should if modeled near correctly.
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t
they're not airbrakes. they do nothing to slow you down. they;re also not on the G or the J. :aok
the 38's flaps mimic the ones in real life. the 38 was designed with maneuvering flaps.
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well there called air breaks, and yes i know which 38s had them thanks ...
are you really trying to turn this into another "flaps" thread?
"mimic", "real life", and "flaps" should not be in the same sentence when discussing AH ...
i mean honestly guys ...
common ...
no offense
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t
they're not airbrakes. they do nothing to slow you down. they;re also not on the G or the J. :aok
the 38's flaps mimic the ones in real life. the 38 was designed with maneuvering flaps.
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yes i have read a lot, it is a very interesting aircraft. i wont debate it's quality with you as it was clearly effective.
i will state that my comments are more on the lines of ...
in these video games the p38 will surprise you more often than most other planes will and that is what i was speaking about, not so much the actual performance of the plane historically.
FYI, P-38 was designed with maneuverability flaps. As CAP said, they mimic the ones in real life.
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how many of you are out there ???
FYI, P-38 was designed with maneuverability flaps. As CAP said, they mimic the ones in real life.
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well there called air breaks, and yes i know which 38s had them thanks ...
are you really trying to turn this into another "flaps" thread?
"mimic", "real life", and "flaps" should not be in the same sentence when discussing AH ...
i mean honestly guys ...
common ...
no offense
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t
no...no they're not.
dive brakes, slow the aircraft in a dive. these do not do that.
After months of pushing NACA to provide Mach 0.75 wind tunnel speeds (and finally succeeding), the compressibility problem was revealed to be the center of lift moving back toward the tail when in high-speed airflow. The compressibility problem was solved by changing the geometry of the wing's underside when diving so as to keep lift within bounds of the top of the wing. In February 1943, quick-acting dive flaps were tried and proven by Lockheed test pilots. The dive flaps were installed outboard of the engine nacelles and in action they extended downward 35° in 1½ seconds. The flaps did not act as a speed brake, they affected the center of pressure distribution so that the wing would not lose its lift.[28]
here's the link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-38_Lightning
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how many of you are out there ???
our numbers are top secret. only the consortium of twelve thinks they have a remote clue to our actual numbers. :noid
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no...no they're not.
dive brakes, slow the aircraft in a dive. these do not do that.
After months of pushing NACA to provide Mach 0.75 wind tunnel speeds (and finally succeeding), the compressibility problem was revealed to be the center of lift moving back toward the tail when in high-speed airflow. The compressibility problem was solved by changing the geometry of the wing's underside when diving so as to keep lift within bounds of the top of the wing. In February 1943, quick-acting dive flaps were tried and proven by Lockheed test pilots. The dive flaps were installed outboard of the engine nacelles and in action they extended downward 35° in 1½ seconds. The flaps did not act as a speed brake, they affected the center of pressure distribution so that the wing would not lose its lift.[28]
here's the link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-38_Lightning
Don't both with this clown Cap. By his own admission he is always right, and everyone else is always wrong. Of course the only info we have to back his statements up is his own word. He's just another loud mouth hiding behind a shade, just not worth your time.
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umm ok dive breaks i stand corrected ...
not buying the not slowing you down part, that may have not been the primary purpose in their design but i assure you they would in real life increase your drag and slow you down.
i can't say how AH models them though.
fyi wikipedia is not vetted, doesn't bother me much but some will stomp on you for posting that as a source.
no...no they're not.
dive brakes, slow the aircraft in a dive. these do not do that.
After months of pushing NACA to provide Mach 0.75 wind tunnel speeds (and finally succeeding), the compressibility problem was revealed to be the center of lift moving back toward the tail when in high-speed airflow. The compressibility problem was solved by changing the geometry of the wing's underside when diving so as to keep lift within bounds of the top of the wing. In February 1943, quick-acting dive flaps were tried and proven by Lockheed test pilots. The dive flaps were installed outboard of the engine nacelles and in action they extended downward 35° in 1½ seconds. The flaps did not act as a speed brake, they affected the center of pressure distribution so that the wing would not lose its lift.[28]
here's the link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-38_Lightning
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8/1 KD?! Christ I try to keep mine under 1 and I'm failing at 1.5. Bunch of score dweebs. Thanks for letting us know Vinkman, I'll tell SAPP and the 80th to get on it. I will look up the offenders, this is nearly grounds for immediate expulsion.
Mensa,
Public Relations Officer
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yea don't bother arguing with me, otherwise you will be posting apologies like others in this thread have felt the need to do already ...
i can be as wrong as anyone, that is why i am very confident in what i post, or i don't post it.
other peoples ability to see the obvious does tend to cloud some issues though.
Don't both with this clown Cap. By his own admission he is always right, and everyone else is always wrong. Of course the only info we have to back his statements up is his own word. He's just another loud mouth hiding behind a shade, just not worth your time.
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umm ok dive breaks i stand corrected ...
not buying the not slowing you down part, that may have not been the primary purpose in their design but i assure you they would in real life increase your drag and slow you down.
i can't say how AH models them though.
fyi wikipedia is not vetted, doesn't bother me much but some will stomp on you for posting that as a source.
they are not brakes of any sort. they did nothign to decrease speed.
i'll find ya better sources later today if ya want......but in this instance you are wrong sir.
OOOO...LOOKIE!!!!! a link to a POH.
http://books.google.com/books?id=qhEkkjp1bnMC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=p-38+dive+recovery+flaps&source=bl&ots=O9FVVBMGeJ&sig=L5jvEKo-DnZJuAphnFgtl_kZ6gI&hl=en&ei=mxe-Sof-LMeg8AbH842hAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false
if you actually read this, you will note, that the dive recovery flaps will allow increased dive speed.
so now my question to you, is this.
if they slow the aircraft down, then how do they allow increased speed? :D
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skeptical but go ahead and knock yourself out ...
the word "break" should give you some insight into the futility of that quest though
IMO of course hehe
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t
they are not brakes of any sort. they did nothign to decrease speed.
i'll find ya better sources later today if ya want......but in this instance you are wrong sir.
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Don't both with this clown Cap. By his own admission he is always right, and everyone else is always wrong. Of course the only info we have to back his statements up is his own word. He's just another loud mouth hiding behind a shade, just not worth your time.
i can't help it. it's like that diehard dude in the porsche/corvette thread in the o club. i kinda have to force them to prove themselves wrong...and they eventually do. :devil
ooo......and as he reads more, you'll notice his replies slow down, as he franticaly searches for information to try to prove he's at least a little right. :devil
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Don't both with this clown Cap. By his own admission he is always right, and everyone else is always wrong. Of course the only info we have to back his statements up is his own word. He's just another loud mouth hiding behind a shade, just not worth your time.
Fugitive, it might be good to do a little search before you call someone a shade. Thorsim is listed in the score pages and is a recent Warbirds-->AH transplant.
thorsim 1
fugitive 0
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Fugitive, it might be good to do a little search before you call someone a shade. Thorsim is listed in the score pages and is a recent Warbirds-->AH transplant.
thorsim 1
fugitive 0
aahh......from what i hear about the flight modeling over there(i've never flown there) that would explain his misinformation.
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sudden silence is deafening./ :devil :aok
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aahh......from what i hear about the flight modeling over there(i've never flown there) that would explain his misinformation.
actually most comments i have heard over in WB from AH transplants is that it is too hard and they leave ...
although, no offense to anyone, the player base is much smaller there so there are far fewer baby seals to club.
also i do not explore the games beyond real world ACM much so in regards to the relative tricks, i admit i am not so familiar with those.
after flying both it is clear that the builders were the same and i find little real differences in the current products FM wise. the newest FMs in WB are imo the best i have flown so far in MMOLVAC but there are only 2 of those.
neither set seems to be as well regarded as WB-2.xx (possibly nostalgia) or has as well defined envelopes as AW classic had(just obvious imo).
i am not sure why and i am not sure where the "accuracy" advantage lies but in regards to the flaps ...
their use in combat was not at all as it is being used in the game and investigations will show anyone who cares to look why.
the structures were not that different type to type and plane to plane in effect or structural limits, they were all designed to handle the same forces and operated under the same effects, no matter what priorities were emphasized in the respective POHs ...
no offense to any one or any product intended just my opinions ...
mostly.
++S++
t
sudden silence is deafening./ :devil :aok
i was away, and will be away most of the weekend, ya'll have fun now ...
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actually most comments i have heard over in WB from AH transplants is that it is too hard and they leave ...
although, no offense to anyone, the player base is much smaller there so there are far fewer baby seals to club.
also i do not explore the games beyond real world ACM much so in regards to the relative tricks, i admit i am not so familiar with those.
after flying both it is clear that the builders were the same and i find little real differences in the current products FM wise. the newest FMs in WB are imo the best i have flown so far in MMOLVAC but there are only 2 of those.
neither set seems to be as well regarded as WB-2.xx (possibly nostalgia) or has as well defined envelopes as AW classic had(just obvious imo).
i am not sure why and i am not sure where the "accuracy" advantage lies but in regards to the flaps ...
their use in combat was not at all as it is being used in the game and investigations will show anyone who cares to look why.
the structures were not that different type to type and plane to plane in effect or structural limits, they were all designed to handle the same forces and operated under the same effects, no matter what priorities were emphasized in the respective POHs ...
no offense to any one or any product intended just my opinions ...
mostly.
++S++
t
i was away, and will be away most of the weekend, ya'll have fun now ...
38's did indeed use flaps in combat. here's a couple AAR reports.
Glad you asked cause I went hunting and found what I was looking for Smiley
From combat reports of the 370th FG in the summer of 44. They would have been flying P38J-10s and 15s not retrofitted with dive flaps and power assisted controls at the time. This would be what the AH P38J represents. They operated in the ground attack role and got jumped many times, and in these instances were outnumbered and the last two at least, in a furball down low.
Note in the reports, the mention of flap use. Also note that the 370th had come to England having trained on the P47 and learned the 38 on the fly prior to D-Day so these were not high time 38 drivers.
Also be sure and note what the last report says at the end. He sounds like he'd fit right in to the AH 38 drivers world Smiley
Dan/CorkyJr
Lt.Richard Berry 370th Combat report June 14, 1944
“I was leading Yellow flight and we had completed our mission and were returning home at 3000 feet. We had lost our flight leader in clouds and haze after an identification pass at friendly A/C. We had just gone on instruments and were about to enter the overcast when we were bounced from 4 O’Clock by four Me 109s which had just broken out of the overcast. Yellow 2 called for me to break right into the E/A. The entire flight broke and I found myself after a half-turn of a Lufberry, turning inside the lead E/A. I fired a four second burst from 200 yards at approximately 20 degrees deflection and observed strikes on the engine. The E/A started to smoke and leveled off. I fell into trail behind him and fired a 6-second burst at 0 Degrees deflection and again observed strikes, this time on the fuselage and right wing root. Fire broke out and enveloped the entire right wing root as the E/A disappeared into cloud. I did not follow him because I was low on fuel. The other E/A disappeared into the clouds after the initial break. We all used our maneuver flaps and had no difficulty in out turning the E/A. I saw no one bail out from the plane I hit and in my opinion the pilot was hit and at least wounded on my first burst because he leveled off and flew at a very slight climb.”
Captain Paul Sabo, 370th FG July 31, 1944
“I was leading Blue Flight circling the target area giving Red Flight Top Cover as they were dive bombing the target. Circling above us at about 12,000 feet were 12 Me 109s. I kept watching them; then 8 of them half rolled and got behind my flight. I gave the order to jettison our bombs and break. I dropped flaps and started in a tight Lufberry. When I had completed one turn I was alone, and at that time I saw an Me 109 in a vertical turn coming in front of me so I started firing at him at a 90 degree deflection shot. He flew right into the pattern and I saw strikes on him from nose to tail. The plane seemed to shudder and slow down. I was about 200 yards when I started to fire. The Me 109 then made a 90 degree turn to the left and started to climb as if he was going to loop. I followed him, closing to about 100 yards, fired and saw strikes all over his canopy, fuselage and tail surfaces. As he was about at the top of his loop and almost on his back, I saw what looked like his canopy come off, as the plane seemed to hang there. It looked like I had wounded the pilot during the first 90 degree deflection shot and he was rolling it over on his back to jettison his canopy and bail out.
About that time I looked in my rear view mirror and saw an Me 109 on my tail. I dropped flaps and turned into him. He half rolled and went down. As I rolled out I saw an Me 109 coming down in front of me. I opened up again and gave him a 90-degree deflection shot. He ran into my pattern and I saw strikes all over the plane. I followed him and kept firing from directly behind him, seeing strikes on his tail surfaces. Then he proceeded to go down in a wild dive from about 5000 feet. I looked back in my mirror again, because all during this time I was still alone. My flight had left me. I saw another Me 109 coming in on my tail. I dropped flaps, leveled out and turned into him. He automatically went into a steep climb and I lost him in the sun. When I looked I saw no more enemy and called my Flight to join me.”
Lt. Royal Madden from the same Flight and same fight, July 31, 1944
“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.
We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.
Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”
you'll note that they pretty much did what us cartoon pile-its do. :aok
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of course they did, all experienced pilots who had them (low deflection flaps) available knew they could use them in combat and often did.
however the specifics of when, why, and to what extent they used them are as different in the games compared to the real world as the flaps and their effects are different in the games compared to the real world. probably different in direct relation to how differently flaps work in the real world compared to the games.
i.e.
could flaps give you some more turn to solve an angle in the real word? yes absolutely.
would flaps make an inherently inferior maneuvering aircraft a superior maneuvering aircraft? no absolutely not.
that is just how it is in the real world. in the game not so much.
++S++
t
no offense ...
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Is this clinic still open?
I am not one of the better sticks in the 38, most nights I am lucky enough to hit something once in a while. Well, stuff besides trees and the ground in general, that is.
I was hoping that many of the people spreading the erroneous information would attend my P38 clinic, I was even hoping for some 109 sticks to come and see how best to fight the P38.
Maybe I should hold a repeat of the first clinic before I hold the second one. Anyone interested?
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of course they did, all experienced pilots who had them (low deflection flaps) available knew they could use them in combat and often did.
however the specifics of when, why, and to what extent they used them are as different in the games compared to the real world as the flaps and their effects are different in the games compared to the real world. probably different in direct relation to how differently flaps work in the real world compared to the games.
i.e.
could flaps give you some more turn to solve an angle in the real word? yes absolutely.
would flaps make an inherently inferior maneuvering aircraft a superior maneuvering aircraft? no absolutely not.
that is just how it is in the real world. in the game not so much.
++S++
t
no offense ...
well.....flaps ingame don't take an inferior turning plane and make it superior turning.
that would be the pile-it keeping his aircraft in it's respective flight envelope.
i haven't mastered it yet, but i've finally on occasion managed to turn my 38j inside a spit, and a couple hellkitties.
while they were in flat turns, on one occasion, i was way too fast, but still got inside of him.....another i was waaaaay slower than i should've been....and managed to get inside.
it was no trickery. it was recognition of the need to change my tactics.,...and in so doing, i got better performance.
an air force friend of mine(somehwat of a historian) has messed with different ww2 flight games. he knows pilots from ww2, as do i.
from talking with these people, it would seem that the modeling is pretty darned close here.
of course there's some gamey things.......but for the most part, when you or me get beat, it has nothing to do with "tricks", so much as it has to do with the fact that the other cartoon pile-it just simply knew his cartoon airplane better. :aok
almost forgot.....in those AAR's i posted.....they were new pilots.
the 38's use flowler flaps, which function differently than standard flaps also.
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there is something clearly wrong with the p-38L !!!! :noid
P-38G 2 0
P-38J 7 3
P-38L 6 6
it is too ugly to have a 1-1 k/d vs. my beautiful FW-190a8 :huh ...
oh sorry, i looked deeper and in the clearly superior FW-190a8 i am 5/3 sooo never mind :aok
srsly though it does raise some eyebrows maneuvering as it does being one of the biggest heaviest fighters of the war(the heaviest USAAF fighter),
floats like a Huey too (ya right whatever "couBSgh"),
does not auger or fold up nearly enough for how it is flown in here(of course none of the planes do)
and those nifty air breaks combined with the "virtual fairie dust flaps" do result in some "interesting" maneuvers (stinker bell engineering)
...
i would be much happier if i saw them depart more often in that deservedly unrecoverable way, which was the real trade off for all that weight, torque, and huge adjustments in airfoil while maneuvering ...
but hey since none of those trixy trix are ACM, and either a crutch or an act of desperation you can do just fine vs the "split tails" ... :rofl
after all i haven't been here that long and i am having no trouble with them whatsoever ...
no offense and mostly meant as humor ..
++S++
t
Yup was funny. It also shows how little you've flown one in-game. Also shows how little you know of the 38 in WWII. <S>
lol coming from warbirds would explain most of your issues as far as lack of tact.
Now I suggest you try flying the 38 in here. All games are not created equal. Or better yet go fly WB with the 12 or so folks you think are so grand.
Your fishing expedition was not a success.
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the only thing im gonna say is this, last night I was headed towards a huge dar, this guy thorsim and at least 4 of his buddies were staying right around our field and as soon as a red guy came in all of them were all over that one lone con :rofl I was extremely impressed with there ability to stay alive :rolleyes:
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the only thing im gonna say is this, last night I was headed towards a huge dar, this guy thorsim and at least 4 of his buddies were staying right around our field and as soon as a red guy came in all of them were all over that one lone con :rofl I was extremely impressed with there ability to stay alive :rolleyes:
i need practice on surviving those situations. i can make 2 cons work their tulips off to get me, and i might even FUBAR one of em....but more than 2, and i'm totally defensive.....
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srsly though it does raise some eyebrows maneuvering as it does being one of the biggest heaviest fighters of the war(the heaviest USAAF fighter),
floats like a Huey too (ya right whatever "couBSgh"),
An aircraft's weight on the scales does not determine its turn or climb performance...I see this error repeated over and over on these forums. Wing-loading or more properly lift-loading and power-loading are the keys. The Lightning has a fairly decent power-loading, and while the wing-loading is pretty high, the wing's high aspect ratio and effective flaps are positive factors. The P-38 was considered a good turning plane in the ETO.
does not auger or fold up nearly enough for how it is flown in here(of course none of the planes do)
and those nifty air breaks combined with the "virtual fairie dust flaps" do result in some "interesting" maneuvers (stinker bell engineering)
Why should the 38 fold up? Are you claiming HTC has not modeled all the planes to their correct structural limits? As far as augering goes, the real 38 had a problem with compressability, the AHII 38 has a problem with compressability, so what are you saying?
The "air brakes"...do you speak of the dive flaps on the L model? They are nothing of the kind...IIRC correctly Widewing determined that they actually add *no* drag to the P-38L, which is weird but beside the point. They merely help pitch the nose up at compressibility speeds. As far as the flaps go...do some quick research on Fowler type flaps and tell me if you don't think they sound like effective lift-increasing devices. BTW, the P-38L's full flap radius is ~26% smaller than its no-flaps radius. The Fw-190D9's full flaps radius is ~25% smaller than its no flaps radius...guess *both* planes have got to have "magic flaps" aye?
...
i would be much happier if i saw them depart more often in that deservedly unrecoverable way, which was the real trade off for all that weight, torque, and huge adjustments in airfoil while maneuvering ...
Statement makes no sense at all. The 38's total weight is no factor, as explained, it has no net torque if both engines are running, and I can't imagine why you think deploying its flaps would make it's departure more severe.
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the only thing im gonna say is this, last night I was headed towards a huge dar, this guy thorsim and at least 4 of his buddies were staying right around our field and as soon as a red guy came in all of them were all over that one lone con :rofl I was extremely impressed with there ability to stay alive :rolleyes:
INK, clearly this guy has issues telling the different between real life, and this game.
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i need practice on surviving those situations. i can make 2 cons work their tulips off to get me, and i might even FUBAR one of em....but more than 2, and i'm totally defensive.....
I think INK is saying it was a 5 v1, and your buddy was one of the 5. :D
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actually most comments i have heard over in WB from AH transplants is that it is too hard and they leave ...
although, no offense to anyone, the player base is much smaller there so there are far fewer baby seals to club.
also i do not explore the games beyond real world ACM much so in regards to the relative tricks, i admit i am not so familiar with those.
after flying both it is clear that the builders were the same and i find little real differences in the current products FM wise. the newest FMs in WB are imo the best i have flown so far in MMOLVAC but there are only 2 of those.
neither set seems to be as well regarded as WB-2.xx (possibly nostalgia) or has as well defined envelopes as AW classic had(just obvious imo).
i am not sure why and i am not sure where the "accuracy" advantage lies but in regards to the flaps ...
their use in combat was not at all as it is being used in the game and investigations will show anyone who cares to look why.
the structures were not that different type to type and plane to plane in effect or structural limits, they were all designed to handle the same forces and operated under the same effects, no matter what priorities were emphasized in the respective POHs ...
no offense to any one or any product intended just my opinions ...
mostly.
++S++
t
i was away, and will be away most of the weekend, ya'll have fun now ...
Your assumption that flap structure, type, and operation are not that different from plane to plane is fundamentally flawed and without any basis.
The various forms of flaps are only similar in their most basic intent. Their operation and their effects, therefor their usefulness in different situations, were completely different.
This was demonstrated for your benefit in the thread on flaps.
Given what I've read of your posts, that you make those assumptions does not surprise me, just as I was not surprised to see you make the assumption that the P-38J-25-Lo and later P-38's were equipped with "dive breaks" (sic).
Likewise, your assumption that the P-38 was not that maneuverable, and instead reallies on "tricks, and trixy(sic) flying" is also without basis in fact, or even merit.
The only thing you get "right" is that the use of flaps in the game is far removed from what it was in real life for one reason, that you do not really die here, so you can afford to get low and slow, and make high risk maneuvers in order to try to score a kill when a pilot who actually risked losing his life would not have done so under any but the most extreme circumstances, where it was his only chance to survive at all.
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skeptical but go ahead and knock yourself out ...
the word "break" should give you some insight into the futility of that quest though
IMO of course hehe
++S++
t
The word is "brake" Just saying.. since you're so rarely wrong
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of course they did, all experienced pilots who had them (low deflection flaps) available knew they could use them in combat and often did.
however the specifics of when, why, and to what extent they used them are as different in the games compared to the real world as the flaps and their effects are different in the games compared to the real world. probably different in direct relation to how differently flaps work in the real world compared to the games.
i.e. could flaps give you some more turn to solve an angle in the real word? yes absolutely.
would flaps make an inherently inferior maneuvering aircraft a superior maneuvering aircraft? no absolutely not. that is just how it is in the real world. in the game not so much.
++S++
t
no offense ...
It never ceases to amaze me how people preach about something they know very little about. You sir, know very little about the P-38.
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The word is "brake" Just saying.. since you're so rarely wrong
:lol
Steve, he is very confident in his posts, maybe you are in fact wrong
:noid Don't second guess yourself :D
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:lol
Steve, he is very confident in his posts, maybe you are in fact wrong
:noid Don't second guess yourself :D
:rofl
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:lol
Steve, he is very confident in his posts, maybe you are in fact wrong
:noid Don't second guess yourself :D
:lol
:uhoh
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i can be as wrong as anyone, that is why i am very confident in what i post, or i don't post it.
see
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well, although he's being a little thick...........we should try to educate him. if after trying that.......well......
then dog pile on da wabbit!!
:aok
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well, although he's being a little thick...........we should try to educate him. if after trying that.......well......
then dog pile on da wabbit!!
:aok
QFT
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My response is to the original post.
I have been flying the 38 almost exclusively for a couple years now. I do not see how the 38 is unbeatable in the vert. Alot of my engagements are of the vertical type and get my butt handed to me quite frequently by many planes. Ive been caught while in vert, stall or HOd otw back down (which drives me nuts). The 38 is not the only plane that can hang on the prop.
Granted, I am in no way an "elite" 38 driver. (Sappers will probably confirm this) I have become soo bored with the rope and the kamikaze vert HOers that im trying to rope, that Id much rather be on the deck in the turnfight.
HB
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Following up on what helbent said, and in response to the original post. I think what you'll find is that for better or worse there is a core group of 38 drivers who are looking for nothing more then a good fight, more often then not on the deck in a furball. I do believe that some of that core group have gotten very good at it. I don't count myself as one of those guys, but hope to get there at some point. It's the pushing of the envelope in the 38 that keeps me going. I think the initial poster should consider the move he saw and wants to counter as just one move in the 38 drivers inventory. And it isn't the one that's pushed the K/D of the 38J to where it is. It is the 38 drivers that have done that.
If there is one thing about the SAPP stuff I'm 'proud' of, its that the message is that fighting and having fun in the 38 is the only thing that matters.
I think if you looked at other plane types you'd find the same thing. As an example there are some seriously hard core 109 drivers out there. Like the 38 people I believe they continue to push the 109s as they challenge themselves beyond the easiest route to a kill. KillnU in a 109G14 and I had a knock down drag out 1 v 1 in the middle of a furball the other day. He finally got me, but it didn't matter as the stick bending, trying to get the most out of my 38G part of the fight was what made it worthwhile. It hasn't happened in a while, but Agent360 and I have had some of those same push it to the limit on the deck fights 109K4 to 38G as well. Nothing more fun then that.
I don't agree with Karnak about the 38 being and easy bird to fly. I do believe that it could look that way if a person only flew the 38 the easy way which is to hang above the crowd and BnZ/ rope em to death. Only flying it that way would be 'safe', but boring. Finding the edges of the 38s is not an easy thing to do. Learning to knife fight in it, is not the same as hopping in a Spit 16.
Again, the guys skewing the K/D don't fly the 38J the 'easy' way. They've taken it to the edges and learned to fight in it and live. Someday I'll get there in the 38G too! :)
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doh, let down by spell check again ...
my apologies for you all not being able to understand what i was talking about ...
clearly you all can continue to feel secure in your virtual representation of reality ...
never mind ...
>>> 60deg flap deployed in dogfights at or near your stall speeds <<<
sure you guys talk to real pilots, sure you do ...
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doh, let down by spell check again ...
my apologies for you all not being able to understand what i was talking about ...
clearly you all can continue to feel secure in your virtual representation of reality ...
never mind ...
>>> 60deg flap deployed in dogfights at or near your stall speeds <<<
sure you guys talk to real pilots, sure you do ...
You need to get out more, this is a game.
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doh, let down by spell check again ...
my apologies for you all not being able to understand what i was talking about ...
clearly you all can continue to feel secure in your virtual representation of reality ...
never mind ...
>>> 60deg flap deployed in dogfights at or near your stall speeds <<<
sure you guys talk to real pilots, sure you do ...
I've been talking to WW2 pilot vets for the last 30 years, many of them 38 drivers. You?
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I've been talking to WW2 pilot vets for the last 30 years, many of them 38 drivers. You?
doesn't matter. Another noob comes into the game to tell all the vets how stupid they are. We get a couple each year.
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doh, let down by spell check again ...
my apologies for you all not being able to understand what i was talking about ...
clearly you all can continue to feel secure in your virtual representation of reality ...
never mind ...
>>> 60deg flap deployed in dogfights at or near your stall speeds <<<
sure you guys talk to real pilots, sure you do ...
p-38 maximum flap setting is 50 degrees.
i've never used full flaps near stall.....but i have a few bookmarks for ya..when i get home.
did you look up fowler flaps yet?
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>>> 60deg flap deployed in dogfights at or near your stall speeds <<<
What is your point with harping on flaps usage constantly? What aspect of AHII P-38 performance do you think defies physics?
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What is your point with harping on flaps usage constantly? What aspect of AHII P-38 performance do you think defies physics?
it's all he's got left.
he's forgetting that pony drivers have flaps available too.....as do others. :aok
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doh, let down by spell check again ...
my apologies for you all not being able to understand what i was talking about ...
clearly you all can continue to feel secure in your virtual representation of reality ...
never mind ...
>>> 60deg flap deployed in dogfights at or near your stall speeds <<<
sure you guys talk to real pilots, sure you do ...
You are in the JG27 squad that came over from AW correct? Question. Were you this obnoxious in that game/forum as you are over here? Because you know very little on anything you've "discussed".
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Some people refuse to be wrong.
Oh well, im entertained.
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Is this clinic still open?
For the sake of my marriage, I only do a certain number of hours in AH a week. Much of the time I've wanted to finish the second clinic have been taken up by 1:1s in the TA lately, heck, I have 4 people just this weekend that are looking for me (I haven't added them to the calendar yet, see below). When those requests lighten up a little, I'll start working on number two.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/calendar/
Btw, I will never attest to being the best or even a good 38 driver but much of the time I can at least examine what the other guy is doing wrong. Unfortunately, I can't always practice what I preach.
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For the sake of my marriage, I only do a certain number of hours in AH a week. Much of the time I've wanted to finish the second clinic have been taken up by 1:1s in the TA lately, heck, I have 4 people just this weekend that are looking for me (I haven't added them to the calendar yet, see below). When those requests lighten up a little, I'll start working on number two.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/calendar/
Btw, I will never attest to being the best or even a good 38 driver but much of the time I can at least examine what the other guy is doing wrong. Unfortunately, I can't always practice what I preach.
Limited time isnt good with this new product coming out!!!
http://www.fsd-international.com/Hangar/P38/index.htm
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Limited time isnt good with this new product coming out!!!
http://www.fsd-international.com/Hangar/P38/index.htm
they're actually skinning the red bull 38? that sucks.
they should've skinned her as the white lightning...as she was famous for.
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it's all he's got left.
he's forgetting that pony drivers have flaps available too.....as do others. :aok
lord dont mention the F4U then.
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they're actually skinning the red bull 38? that sucks.
they should've skinned her as the white lightning...as she was famous for.
Within a very short period of time someone will fix that. I live for the free skins users make its like getting free airplanes which is why the Airplanes folder on my FSX is so large. I have to learn how to use that textures.cfg thing!
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umm ok dive breaks i stand corrected ...
not buying the not slowing you down part, that may have not been the primary purpose in their design but i assure you they would in real life increase your drag and slow you down.
i can't say how AH models them though.
fyi wikipedia is not vetted, doesn't bother me much but some will stomp on you for posting that as a source.
The correct term is dive flaps, since that is what they were and not dive/air brakes. The job of the dive flaps was to off-set compressibility during high speed dives and not slow the plane down. When deployed, it provided a nose up pitch and any loss of energy from the use of dive flaps was a result of the nose pitching up and not the dive flaps themselves. The drag they add isn't sufficient enough to provide any 'braking'.
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/p38diveflaps.gif)
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/diveflap.jpg)
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/dsc00730.jpg)
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/dsc00727.jpg)
ack-ack
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Limited time isnt good with this new product coming out!!!
http://www.fsd-international.com/Hangar/P38/index.htm
Anyone notice that they have the correct P-38L performance specifications? It gives a top speed with WEP as 443MPH at 28K feet, and HP as being 1725HP at 64" MAP. It shows military power at 414MPH.
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The word is "brake" Just saying.. since you're so rarely wrong
:rofl :rofl
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actually most comments i have heard over in WB from AH transplants is that it is too hard and they leave ...
that is very understandable, there have been alot of people who have left AH and went to other "easier" flight sim FM's
also i do not explore the games beyond real world ACM much so in regards to the relative tricks, i admit i am not so familiar with those. ...
so if you limit yourself to what you have read from history of WWII combat flight AAR's or to what the training manual says for WWII aircraft, then you will never find out what the Extreme limits of these planes "flight envelope" truely are...... seriously... if all the Combat fighter pilots of WWII had the same amount of "seat time" in the planes we get to simulate flying in these flight sims, I am certian they would have found what these birds of prey could really do......
i am not sure why and i am not sure where the "accuracy" advantage lies but in regards to the flaps ...
their use in combat was not at all as it is being used in the game and investigations will show anyone who cares to look why.
for the most part, most WWII pilots that flew fighters never had the chance of 10,000+ hours of seat time to learn the complete in's and out's of their particular plane....... True, noone dies in this or any other flight sim game, but on the other hand if they had simulators like we have today, back then, then it would be completely different writing in the history books....... we can only imagine of what the difference would be....
and if you want to research it, you can find youtube videos and/or reports of P-38s, F4Us, P51s, 109s, etc etc....... to where they were tested and pushed to the limits.......... some even in our time of today....... ever been to see the USAF Thunderbirds or the USN Blue angels? and they do that stuff with Jets, imagine what they could do in WWII prop planes......... food for thought.....
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My Ki84 owns any of you P38 BBS queens :devil
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The correct term is dive flaps, since that is what they were and not dive/air brakes. The job of the dive flaps was to off-set compressibility during high speed dives and not slow the plane down. When deployed, it provided a nose up pitch and any loss of energy from the use of dive flaps was a result of the nose pitching up and not the dive flaps themselves. The drag they add isn't sufficient enough to provide any 'braking'.
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/p38diveflaps.gif)
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/diveflap.jpg)
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/dsc00730.jpg)
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/dsc00727.jpg)
ack-ack
Excellent Ack-Ack, that is the most coherent explanation I've ever seen of what those things ARE, and what they DO :aok
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for the most part, most WWII pilots that flew fighters never had the chance of 10,000+ hours of seat time to learn the complete in's and out's of their particular plane.......
Even if they did the planes in reality are not as durable as they are in this game. Dont fall into the trap of thinking that because it happens in a game it could in real life.
The Angels did fly the Bearcat at one time (1946-1949) and that show put jets to shame.
http://aerobaticteams.net/Blue_Angels_F8F_Bearcat.html
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Even if they did the planes in reality are not as durable as they are in this game. Dont fall into the trap of thinking that because it happens in a game it could in real life.
I wouldn't say that applies to all of the planes. I've seen some pretty expensive and rare birds flown very hard.
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I wouldn't say that applies to all of the planes. I've seen some pretty expensive and rare birds flown very hard.
thx SaVaGe for your post, alot of us ( some of us )have seen and experienced the thrill of seeing some very brave and successful pilots push the envelope in some of these old warbirds in reallife......... I know it has made me a believer that things some of us have seen or can do in this game, can also be done in real life planes of/from WWII.....
to quantify, EVERYTHING done in game may not be possible, but a majority of what one sees as far as AC maneuvering pretty much can be done..outside of the fish flopping, stick stirring BS.....
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The Angels did fly the Bearcat at one time (1946-1949) and that show put jets to shame.
http://aerobaticteams.net/Blue_Angels_F8F_Bearcat.html
The Blue angels were formed beginning with only 3 Pilots from WWII and they came out of their original home base of NAS Jacksonville and originally began with and flew the F6F-5 HellCat ( er might of been the F6f-3 have to go back and look at my Air Warrior Research )
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My Ki84 owns any of you P38 BBS queens :devil
Mr. postcount is feeling ignored :D
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Mr. postcount is feeling ignored :D
HAHA just another to the list, daddy always told me to go for GOLD :D
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The Blue angels were formed beginning with only 3 Pilots from WWII and they came out of their original home base of NAS Jacksonville and originally began with and flew the F6F-5 HellCat ( er might of been the F6f-3 have to go back and look at my Air Warrior Research )
You are correct.
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ya.....i've taken shots that as i lined em up and fired, almost instantly, i thought " o crap, i just lost this fight". this because i realized a little too late, that i gave up any advantage i had to get that quick shot.
patience is a virtue.
I'm 7 months in to this game and I'm just seeing this, pulling on the stick to hard losing E to take a shot and then becoming the hunted. Got to love this game but it takes time to get good. My personal opinion is that almost any plane flown right can take on about any other plane in the game. You just half to know what your planes limits are and what it does well. After that you need to know your opponent's weaknesses versus your strengths and work from there. I've fought some good sticks in the 38 and I win some and lose some, it can be shot down like any other plane. TnDep
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I'm 7 months in to this game and I'm just seeing this, pulling on the stick to hard losing E to take a shot and then becoming the hunted. Got to love this game but it takes time to get good. My personal opinion is that almost any plane flown right can take on about any other plane in the game. You just half to know what your planes limits are and what it does well. After that you need to know your opponent's weaknesses versus your strengths and work from there. I've fought some good sticks in the 38 and I win some and lose some, it can be shot down like any other plane. TnDep
yep.
just had a fight me 38j vs ponyb last night. i had about 1-3k alt advantage, at which point speeds were about equal, but i had speed advantage when i came in to attack, allowing me to clear out of his guns range should i need.
i thought i took a shot, held the turn(too long i might add), took it, and that was the end of the fight, as i should've been much more patient, and tried to wear him down.
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The Blue angels were formed beginning with only 3 Pilots from WWII and they came out of their original home base of NAS Jacksonville and originally began with and flew the F6F-5 HellCat ( er might of been the F6f-3 have to go back and look at my Air Warrior Research )
Have you ever seen a Hellcat up against an F8F? No comparison to be made lightly considering both are warbirds and are very cool either way but still... no comparison.
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Was reading the number of kills for 38s. Going to check mine.
576 kills :t
144 deaths :eek: Told yall I die alot even if some are self inflicted. :D
All but one in 38J.
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Was reading the number of kills for 38s. Going to check mine.
576 kills :t
144 deaths :eek: Told yall I die alot even if some are self inflicted. :D
All but one in 38J.
you flew something besides the 38 o doom????
i just looked at mine........
108 kills, 81 deaths.
78 in p38J, 12 in p38G, 2 in p39Q, and 3 in lancaster. the rest were all in gv's. spent about 35 hours ingame this month so far.....and compared to what i've been able to do lately, that's a LOT of time ingame for me. :D
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I agree with a poster which talked about any plane can take on any other plane, and it all depends on the pilot.
To prove this, I can give an example of getting my bellybutton handed to me by 8Spade flying a P40 out of all things while me in a 16. That was a shocker!!! I still remember this, that being around a year ago me thinks. I got away but was missing parts, after stall fight on the deck. Wish I had that filmed.
<S> 8Spade
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Was reading the number of kills for 38s. Going to check mine.
576 kills :t
144 deaths :eek: Told yall I die alot even if some are self inflicted. :D
All but one in 38J.
Shows how little time I've had for flying this month
78 kills to 36 deaths in the 38G
3 kills to 1 death in the 38J
Doing my part to spread the 38 parts however :)
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I agree with a poster which talked about any plane can take on any other plane, and it all depends on the pilot.
To prove this, I can give an example of getting my bellybutton handed to me by 8Spade flying a P40 out of all things while me in a 16. That was a shocker!!! I still remember this, that being around a year ago me thinks. I got away but was missing parts, after stall fight on the deck. Wish I had that filmed.
<S> 8Spade
1duke1 is a killer in that dam p40. imadot will kick most peoples arse in his hurri1 too. :aok
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I've got kills in other planes if the 38 is not available (off carrier, FH down). I was just posting my 38 kills as this thread is aimed at the 38.
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Have you ever seen a Hellcat up against an F8F? No comparison to be made lightly considering both are warbirds and are very cool either way but still... no comparison.
I just noticed you provided a link of the older planes the Blue Angels had flown and some history of them..thanks for the link ( although whoever typed it up, has spelling troubles as bad as me, if not worse lol )
not sure what answer you are looking for here? only reason I posted about the F6f in the Blue Angels, is because I was refering that they started out with a WW2 Fighter plane. I do agree the Bearcat is a monster to a Hellcat sitting side by side.......I have no knowledge of the 2 different planes flying against each other though, or seen any flightsim where 2 people could simulate such an event......
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Great discussion but perhaps it's gotten a bit off track.
I'd like to address a few things about defences of the P-38L's climb-rate/vertical ability that seem to have been mis-stated. The energy vs. Speed argument has been made several times and this argument is only true when diving. If two planes are at the same speed the heavier plane has an advantage diving but a dis-advantage climbing. So the 38 shouldn't climb higher from a given speed bacause it's heavier than a lighter aircraft at the the same speed. So let me be clear. I'm talking about chasing a 38 at same or slower speed, 600-700 on his six o'clock and having him pull vertical and pull away from a C205 and out of gun range [800+yrds] and hang on his prop until my C205 stalls out and the chaser becomes the chased [and the dead I might add]
Physics suggest that can't happen. I can't figure out how to insert an image, so my appologies for having to describe the chart. But I have plotted the climb rate for C205 vs a P38L. And under 20K ft, the C205 climb rate is consistantly 10% higher. Climb rate is based mostly on power-weight, as is acceleration. So in level flight at the same speed it is not possible for a P-38 to pull vertical and pull away from a C205.
Departure behavior is a different thing. I understand that the P-38 probably has better and later departure characteristics, and may achieve a higher final alt due to departing later, but he should be dead before either of us depart, because I should close to 400 or so before stall.
The scenarios I discribed were not one offs, Lazer killed me like 12 times but I refer to about 5 of them that were vertical stall reversals. Then it was shuffler (4 times), then it was Hyperion, (3 or 4 times) then it was Airdog [?], and several others. I don't feel I mis-judging the speed every time. I have to be right some of the time and close the gap and get the kill, but, alas, I'm here writing about it.
So it is possible I am mis-judging the speed but I wanted to get some film to understand this. I think the kill ratio stats of the first post back up my own personal experience of this manuever accounting for much of that stat, but I can't and am not trying to prove that. I'm just trying to see if others are dying this way, and if they've filmed it.
No offense to the 38 drivers, but I wanted to here from your vitims ;) Unless you 38 drivers want to post films of vertical reversal kills.
So....any films?
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Don't confuse climb performance with vertical performance. Also, the C.205 bleeds energy much quicker than the P-38 does in the vertical and has other contributing factors to the energy loss as well, such as fighting torque as you get slower in your vertical climb, the P-38 doesn't. The P-38 also has two powerful engines pulling plane upwards.
It's not inaccurate flight modeling that is enabling some P-38 drivers to rope you.
ack-ack
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Great discussion but perhaps it's gotten a bit off track.
I'd like to address a few things about defences of the P-38L's climb-rate/vertical ability that seem to have been mis-stated. The energy vs. Speed argument has been made several times and this argument is only true when diving. If two planes are at the same speed the heavier plane has an advantage diving but a dis-advantage climbing. So the 38 shouldn't climb higher from a given speed bacause it's heavier than a lighter aircraft at the the same speed. So let me be clear. I'm talking about chasing a 38 at same or slower speed, 600-700 on his six o'clock and having him pull vertical and pull away from a C205 and out of gun range [800+yrds] and hang on his prop until my C205 stalls out and the chaser becomes the chased [and the dead I might add]
Physics suggest that can't happen. I can't figure out how to insert an image, so my appologies for having to describe the chart. But I have plotted the climb rate for C205 vs a P38L. And under 20K ft, the C205 climb rate is consistantly 10% higher. Climb rate is based mostly on power-weight, as is acceleration. So in level flight at the same speed it is not possible for a P-38 to pull vertical and pull away from a C205.
Departure behavior is a different thing. I understand that the P-38 probably has better and later departure characteristics, and may achieve a higher final alt due to departing later, but he should be dead before either of us depart, because I should close to 400 or so before stall.
The scenarios I discribed were not one offs, Lazer killed me like 12 times but I refer to about 5 of them that were vertical stall reversals. Then it was shuffler (4 times), then it was Hyperion, (3 or 4 times) then it was Airdog [?], and several others. I don't feel I mis-judging the speed every time. I have to be right some of the time and close the gap and get the kill, but, alas, I'm here writing about it.
So it is possible I am mis-judging the speed but I wanted to get some film to understand this. I think the kill ratio stats of the first post back up my own personal experience of this manuever accounting for much of that stat, but I can't and am not trying to prove that. I'm just trying to see if others are dying this way, and if they've filmed it.
No offense to the 38 drivers, but I wanted to here from your vitims ;) Unless you 38 drivers want to post films of vertical reversal kills.
So....any films?
kinetic energy. the heavier aircraft at the same speed will hold more stored energy, and should allow it to maintain a vertical maneuver longer, due to the momentum.
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kinetic energy. the heavier aircraft at the same speed will hold more stored energy, and should allow it to maintain a vertical maneuver longer, due to the momentum.
That alone should be enough but throw in the c2 counteracting torque and your creating more drag on the bird.
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kinetic energy. the heavier aircraft at the same speed will hold more stored energy, and should allow it to maintain a vertical maneuver longer, due to the momentum.
And it doesn't work out that way. Zoom a SpitXVI and a P-47N straight up from the same alt and the same speed, and you'll be able to get almost identical zoom heights out of either. Once again, we had a long thread where the guys with a head for physics posted alot of math explaining why the heavier plane *does not* have an advantage in the zoom. What the P-38 *does* have is no net torque, which allows it to hold a zoom longer at while firewalled without loosing control, compared to a single-engine job.
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Once again, we had a long thread where the guys with a head for physics posted alot of math explaining why the heavier plane *does not* have an advantage in the zoom.
Power off, the plane with the higher mass in AH will out zoom the one with the smaller mass.
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Power off, the plane with the higher mass in AH will out zoom the one with the smaller mass.
WHICH brings us back to kinetic energy....or stored energy?
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I'm just trying to see if others are dying this way, and if they've filmed it.
No offense to the 38 drivers, but I wanted to here from your vitims ;) Unless you 38 drivers want to post films of vertical reversal kills.
So....any films?
Yes, others die this way, whether they film it or not. And it's not just a "P38" thing, or a "P38 vs C205" thing. I rope P38's quite often in my F4U, regardless of the P38's performance, lack of torque, or any other factor. I also rope other planes that have me beat overall, as long as they don't have me beat in that particular instance...
The "rope" does not depend purely on overall performance differences between the two planes. A P38 that can easily rope an opponent at one point in a fight, may be suicidal to try it a few seconds sooner or later in that same fight.
What type of films are you looking for specifically? How to "beat" the rope? Just don't follow it up, unless you're obviously gaining on him as you go up. If you are "holding even" as far as closure while following him vertical, you're in trouble... You've "beaten the rope" as soon as you've refused to get roped. It takes the rope out of the picture, and forces him to use a different tactic.
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That alone should be enough but throw in the c2 counteracting torque and your creating more drag on the bird.
This is incorrect. Kinetic energy explanes why heavy bullets travel farther than light bullets. In that case, the energy bleed is friction loss due to drag which is the same for both bullets, but the heavier bullet has more engery to lose. When pulling into the vertical, the kinetic engery is being converted into potential engergy in a gravitational field. It's gravity that slows the plane down not friction loss. It takes more engergy to move a heavier plane to a higher altitude than it take to move a lighter plane to a higher altitude. So the heavey plane has to convert it's engery faster to make the same manuever. In other words the mass effect cancels itself out.
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Yes, others die this way, whether they film it or not. And it's not just a "P38" thing, or a "P38 vs C205" thing. I rope P38's quite often in my F4U, regardless of the P38's performance, lack of torque, or any other factor. I also rope other planes that have me beat overall, as long as they don't have me beat in that particular instance...
The "rope" does not depend purely on overall performance differences between the two planes. A P38 that can easily rope an opponent at one point in a fight, may be suicidal to try it a few seconds sooner or later in that same fight.
What type of films are you looking for specifically? How to "beat" the rope? Just don't follow it up, unless you're obviously gaining on him as you go up. If you are "holding even" as far as closure while following him vertical, you're in trouble... You've "beaten the rope" as soon as you've refused to get roped. It takes the rope out of the picture, and forces him to use a different tactic.
I proposed a theory that the P-38 has superior vertical performance compared with other MA planes that the performance specs suggest it shouldn't possess, leading to a high number of 'rope' kills. I want to use film to see if my ascertion is correct. I'm perfectly fine with being wrong, and the films should show that too. I'd like to see film of P-38s performing vertical stall reversal manuevers for victories.
Thanks to any and all who post such films.
Lazerr, shuffler, Hyperion, Delerium, must have 30 among them if they filmed and saved any times they killed me in this exact fashion. I unfortunetly didn't.
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And it doesn't work out that way. Zoom a SpitXVI and a P-47N straight up from the same alt and the same speed, and you'll be able to get almost identical zoom heights out of either. Once again, we had a long thread where the guys with a head for physics posted alot of math explaining why the heavier plane *does not* have an advantage in the zoom. What the P-38 *does* have is no net torque, which allows it to hold a zoom longer at while firewalled without loosing control, compared to a single-engine job.
i had a fight against aarrg the other night. him zeek, me 38j. i don't really know how to fight a zeek, so i stayed a bit above him.
eventually, we ended up co-alt, but with the 38 i could extend away at will....which i did. several times, i went vertical, and he followed. we were within 20 to 30 mph of each other. every time, he stalled well below me, and before me.
i pretty much think that has more to do with the fact that his weight was probably around 7,000 pounds to my 38's fatness of about 11,000 to 12,000 pounds.
then to top it off, he has to work his rudder to counter his engines torque as he loses speed....good ole "P" factor. :D this i believe creates even more drag, helping my cause.
i would go max. 2 turns before i felt i had to extend, and it's the first time i've successfully fought a zeek without having to pick, or bnz.
i watched the film, and it was actually incredibly boring, but it let me see how the e states equaled out at times.
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This is incorrect. Kinetic energy explanes why heavy bullets travel farther than light bullets. In that case, the energy bleed is friction loss due to drag which is the same for both bullets, but the heavier bullet has more engery to lose. When pulling into the vertical, the kinetic engery is being converted into potential engergy in a gravitational field. It's gravity that slows the plane down not friction loss. It takes more engergy to move a heavier plane to a higher altitude than it take to move a lighter plane to a higher altitude. So the heavey plane has to convert it's engery faster to make the same manuever. In other words the mass effect cancels itself out.
right.......and since the larger heavier plane can/does store more energy, this gives it more energy to maneuver vertically with.
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This is incorrect. Kinetic energy explanes why heavy bullets travel farther than light bullets. In that case, the energy bleed is friction loss due to drag which is the same for both bullets, but the heavier bullet has more engery to lose. When pulling into the vertical, the kinetic engery is being converted into potential engergy in a gravitational field. It's gravity that slows the plane down not friction loss. It takes more engergy to move a heavier plane to a higher altitude than it take to move a lighter plane to a higher altitude. So the heavey plane has to convert it's engery faster to make the same manuever. In other words the mass effect cancels itself out.
So your saying that throwing your rudder all the way one way and your ailerons all the way does not create massive drag? I use this for brakes on my 38.
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I proposed a theory that the P-38 has superior vertical performance compared with other MA planes that the performance specs suggest it shouldn't possess, leading to a high number of 'rope' kills. I want to use film to see if my ascertion is correct. I'm perfectly fine with being wrong, and the films should show that too. I'd like to see film of P-38s performing vertical stall reversal manuevers for victories.
Thanks to any and all who post such films.
Lazerr, shuffler, Hyperion, Delerium, must have 30 among them if they filmed and saved any times they killed me in this exact fashion. I unfortunetly didn't.
i'll snip my film from the other night down to just the kill shots, and try to get it up here for ya. i don't often use the vertical.........as i should, but in this instance, i did.
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I proposed a theory that the P-38 has superior vertical performance compared with other MA planes that the performance specs suggest it shouldn't possess, leading to a high number of 'rope' kills. I want to use film to see if my ascertion is correct. I'm perfectly fine with being wrong, and the films should show that too. I'd like to see film of P-38s performing vertical stall reversal manuevers for victories.
Thanks to any and all who post such films.
Lazerr, shuffler, Hyperion, Delerium, must have 30 among them if they filmed and saved any times they killed me in this exact fashion. I unfortunetly didn't.
If you're gonna call shenanigans, then show the proof. What performance specs show the Lightning shouldn't have the vertical performance it does in game?
ack-ack
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right.......and since the larger heavier plane can/does store more energy, this gives it more energy to maneuver vertically with.
No. It has more energy but NEEDS more engergy so it's a wash.
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No. It has more energy but NEEDS more engergy so it's a wash.
no...if it had more drag it would need more energy.
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no...if it had more drag it would need more energy.
cap1 go out in your backyard and through bowlingball and basketball up in the air and tell me which one you can thow higher. Is it the bowling ball because it's smaller diameter means less drag?
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ya'll still talking about this?
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Now roll them down a 20' ski ramp... which goes higher.
ya'll still talking about this?
Yes Vinkman got slimed... anyone seen that ghost???? :D
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cap1 go out in your backyard and through bowlingball and basketball up in the air and tell me which one you can thow higher. Is it the bowling ball because it's smaller diameter means less drag?
bad analogy. they're both starting from zero.
assume they're both rolling on a track, at a given speed....say 5 mph. the end of the track goes up 10 degrees. the bowling ball will go farther up, before it comes down.
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Now roll them down a 20' ski ramp... which goes higher.
They achieve the same height. Ke=1/2 mV^2, Pe=mgh. If all the Ke is converted to Pe then use these two equations to determine how high (solve for H) the plane goes. You quickly see that m cancels out and H = (V^2)/g
where
m=mass
g=gravitational acceleration
h=height differential
V=velocity
Ke= Kinetic Engergy
Pe= Potential Energy
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This thread delivers better than when a certain SAPP member started a troll thread accusing SAPPers of P38 cheats. :lol
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If you're gonna call shenanigans, then show the proof. What performance specs show the Lightning shouldn't have the vertical performance it does in game?
ack-ack
I'm asking for the film (proof) you're demanding I post. ;)
Shenanigans is the wrong term. That implies cheating. I'm asking if the flight model is acurate or is Martix performing weird physics for p-38 in the vertical.
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i'll snip my film from the other night down to just the kill shots, and try to get it up here for ya. i don't often use the vertical.........as i should, but in this instance, i did.
That would be great Cap1 Thanks
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This is incorrect. Kinetic energy explanes why heavy bullets travel farther than light bullets. In that case, the energy bleed is friction loss due to drag which is the same for both bullets, but the heavier bullet has more engery to lose. When pulling into the vertical, the kinetic engery is being converted into potential engergy in a gravitational field. It's gravity that slows the plane down not friction loss. It takes more engergy to move a heavier plane to a higher altitude than it take to move a lighter plane to a higher altitude. So the heavey plane has to convert it's engery faster to make the same manuever. In other words the mass effect cancels itself out.
I might be wrong but an object falls at 2.2 feet per second reguardless of weight. If you take a quarter and penny and drop them at the same time, they hit the ground at the same time. If both the heavier bullet and lighter bullet is traveling the same speed, they should fall at the same rate. If I'm wrong please explain. I shoot alot of weapons and I figure not of the wieght of the bullet but the traveling speed of the bullet to find my 100-1000 yrds drop zones.
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I might be wrong but an object falls at 2.2 feet per second reguardless of weight. If you take a quarter and penny and drop them at the same time, they hit the ground at the same time. If both the heavier bullet and lighter bullet is traveling the same speed, they should fall at the same rate. If I'm wrong please explain. I shoot alot of weapons and I figure not of the wieght of the bullet but the traveling speed of the bullet to find my 100-1000 yrds drop zones.
no.....their kinetic energy will fight gravity differently.
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I'm asking for the film (proof) you're demanding I post. ;)
Shenanigans is the wrong term. That implies cheating. I'm asking if the flight model is acurate or is Martix performing weird physics for p-38 in the vertical.
And I'm asking what performance specs suggest the P-38 shouldn't have the vertical performance it does in-game?
ack-ack
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Most scientific thread evar :eek:
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I might be wrong but an object falls at 2.2 feet per second reguardless of weight. If you take a quarter and penny and drop them at the same time, they hit the ground at the same time. If both the heavier bullet and lighter bullet is traveling the same speed, they should fall at the same rate. If I'm wrong please explain. I shoot alot of weapons and I figure not of the wieght of the bullet but the traveling speed of the bullet to find my 100-1000 yrds drop zones.
You are sort of correct. All objects accelerate towards the ground at the same rate, regardless of mass (weight). The 2.2 ft/s is not correct. All objects accelerate at 32.2ft/sec/sec due to gravity. So after 1 sec they would falling at 32ft/s
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I might be wrong but an object falls at 2.2 feet per second reguardless of weight. If you take a quarter and penny and drop them at the same time, they hit the ground at the same time. If both the heavier bullet and lighter bullet is traveling the same speed, they should fall at the same rate. If I'm wrong please explain. I shoot alot of weapons and I figure not of the wieght of the bullet but the traveling speed of the bullet to find my 100-1000 yrds drop zones.
The acceleration due to gravity is 32.2 ft per second squared. That means that an object gains another 32.2 feet per second every second as it falls. In a vacuum, all things on earth fall at 32.2 ft/sec^2 regardless of weight and even more importantly shape. Outside of a vacuum there is wind resistance (and other factors) that cause objects to fall at different accelerations.
I type this on my phone so I'll stop now but one last thing:
2.2 tootsies per second is really slow.
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And I'm asking what performance specs suggest the P-38 shouldn't have the vertical performance it does in-game?
Climb rate is a good comparison. 38 vertical performance should not be better than planes with better climb rates.
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Climb rate is a good comparison. 38 vertical performance should not be better than planes with better climb rates.
Why exactly should it not be?
Thrust weight ratio, the dominant factor in climb rate, is only one positive factor in zoom climbs. Another is low drag. And you keep conveniently trying to forget perhaps the most important factor in P-38 vertical performance, ability to be nose-up at full power at very low airspeed and still remain in control because of torqueless operation.
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Climb rate is a good comparison. 38 vertical performance should not be better than planes with better climb rates.
Debatable. Think about a lot of planes with a better climb rate ( Spit 16, 109K, etc ) all of those planes are single engined, meaning they have torque which the P-38 does not, thus allowing the P-38 to shine in the vertical because it does not have torque to fight when it's in the vertical.
Not hard at all to see Vink. ;)
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no matter how much you guys talk up the 38 I still cant fly that thing at all, and I am amazed at how some of the better sticks are in it, and think to my self, man I'm glad he's not in a spit :rofl
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,266321.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,266321.0.html)
This is the thread where the aero whizzes we have on the forum explained the physics behind zoom performance in an aircraft. I myself thought "ballistic coefficient" would be a significant factor in aircraft zoom performance, but turns out it is not. The two most important factors are high thrust and low drag. And the physics also imply that the rough parity you get testing most all aircraft in AHII in zooms from the same speed is probably accurate.
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no matter how much you guys talk up the 38 I still cant fly that thing at all, and I am amazed at how some of the better sticks are in it, and think to my self, man I'm glad he's not in a spit :rofl
Actually, I find I have gotten so use to the slow responsiveness of the P38; when I fly in KOTH in a spit, I turn so quickly I don't have time for ACM :lol
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One of my biggest problems flying something like a Ki84, Spit, or Corsair is leading my target too much. Many times I have collided because I've turned too sharp
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ok i am back from my weekend trip and i see many of you have been having a good time in my absence ...
lots of stuff that i feel the need to comment on, this may take some time ...
they're not airbrakes. they do nothing to slow you down. they;re also not on the G or the J. :aok
the 38's flaps mimic the ones in real life. the 38 was designed with maneuvering flaps.
you are incorrect sir the flaps, B-R-A-K-E-S, or whatever else you call them slow you down.
easy to check just deploy any of them (including any follower types) in level flight and see what they do while you maintain level flight. they will slow you down.
they also do other things but they all increase drag(usually several different kinds of drag) and drag reduces your speed "."
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t
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ok i am back from my weekend trip and i see many of you have been having a good time in my absence ...
lots of stuff that i feel the need to comment on, this may take some time ...
you are incorrect sir the flaps, B-R-A-K-E-S, or whatever else you call them slow you down.
easy to check just deploy any of them (including any follower types) in level flight and see what they do while you maintain level flight. they will slow you down.
they also do other things but they all increase drag(usually several different kinds of drag) and drag reduces your speed "."
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t
IIRC Widewing tested it, and the P-38L's dive flaps *do not* slow you down in AHII. Which is wierd, they should provide *some* drag, hanging out in the breeze and all, but they do not.
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Why exactly should it not be?
Thrust weight ratio, the dominant factor in climb rate, is only one positive factor in zoom climbs. Another is low drag.
Are you saying that P-38s have less drag than other planes. (Drag force) = (frontal area)*(drag coeficient). Assuming these planes are all streamlined (Coeficient of drag in .15 range) the frontal area of a P-38 is slightly less than twice that of most single engine fighters. That's why it needs twice the horse power to go slightly faster (top speed). Planes with higher power to weight ratios would have more power left over to overcome drag losses when climbing. Hence they climb faster. I'm pretty sure drag is factored into climb rate, so I don' think this is not a missed point on my part.
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Thorsim, we ve moved on to a different deadhorse to beat while you were gone, sorry.
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Are you saying that P-38s have less drag than other planes. (Drag force) = (frontal area)*(drag coeficient). Assuming these planes are all streamlined (Coeficient of drag in .15 range) the frontal area of a P-38 is slightly less than twice that of most single engine fighters. That's why it needs twice the horse power to go slightly faster (top speed). Planes with higher power to weight ratios would have more power left over to overcome drag losses when climbing. Hence they climb faster. I'm pretty sure drag is factored into climb rate, so I don' think this is not a missed point on my part.
A zoom climb is typically begun from high airspeeds. A steady climb is at low airspeeds where drag is less of a factor. So yes, low drag is more of a positive in zooms than in a steady climb.
As for the P-38s zoom climb performance...it isn't UFO like at all. I've tested the zoom climbs of aircraft by 1. diving to sea level and hitting auto level. 2. Allowing the plane to declerate to 400mph and doing a 3g pull to the vertical. 3. Hitting shift-X to hold it in the vertical until it falls out of the sky. I got only a little more heigth out of the P-38s than with other planes, which I attribute to torqueless operation allowing it to stay nose high until it is completely out of airspeed.
I have also demonstrated and had it demonstrated to me ad nauseum, that from a co-e start the climb rate and e-retention of something like a SpitXVI will not allow the P-38 to simply run away in the vertical. What the P-38 will do is remain nose up at slow airspeeds long after any single engine airplane has flopped over and is fighting to recover, and go nose down again for the kill while remaining in control. But this isn't UFO behavior either, simply an obvious benefit of twin-engine counter-rotating design.
Basically, if you are finding the P-38 an insurmountable obstacle it might have something to do with relative pilot quality.
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ok i am back from my weekend trip and i see many of you have been having a good time in my absence ...
lots of stuff that i feel the need to comment on, this may take some time ...
you are incorrect sir the flaps, B-R-A-K-E-S, or whatever else you call them slow you down.
easy to check just deploy any of them (including any follower types) in level flight and see what they do while you maintain level flight. they will slow you down.
they also do other things but they all increase drag(usually several different kinds of drag) and drag reduces your speed "."
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t
IIRC Widewing tested it, and the P-38L's dive flaps *do not* slow you down in AHII. Which is wierd, they should provide *some* drag, hanging out in the breeze and all, but they do not.
Again, the dive flaps on the P-38L (notice thorsim, the key word is "flaps" and not "brakes") were not meant to slow the plane down as they are not designed for such a job. As I mentioned in my previous post, the basic intent was to provide a nose up pitch to aid in dive recovery and stave off compressability. Yes, there was a drag penalty associated with it but the drag was not sufficient enough to slow the plane down like dive/air brakes would. The main contributor to energy loss that came from using the dive flaps was a result of the nose up pitch and not the drag from the dive flaps.
In AH, there never has been a drag penalty associated with them and if even if there was, the drag penalty would be minimul and wouldn't effect the P-38L's performance in anyway if deployed.
P-38 drivers in real life never used the dive flaps to slow them down like dive brakes.
ack-ack
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considering the difference between what should happen and what does not happen in AH vs TRW maybe we should revisit the things i brought up before i left ...
otherwise you should probably stop trying to equate the video games to real life,
it makes people like myself who understand these things feel the need to comment.
Thorsim, we ve moved on to a different deadhorse to beat while you were gone, sorry.
well.....flaps ingame don't take an inferior turning plane and make it superior turning.
that would be the pile-it keeping his aircraft in it's respective flight envelope.
i haven't mastered it yet, but i've finally on occasion managed to turn my 38j inside a spit, and a couple hellkitties.
while they were in flat turns, on one occasion, i was way too fast, but still got inside of him.....another i was waaaaay slower than i should've been....and managed to get inside.
it was no trickery. it was recognition of the need to change my tactics.,...and in so doing, i got better performance.
an air force friend of mine(somehwat of a historian) has messed with different ww2 flight games. he knows pilots from ww2, as do i.
from talking with these people, it would seem that the modeling is pretty darned close here.
of course there's some gamey things.......but for the most part, when you or me get beat, it has nothing to do with "tricks", so much as it has to do with the fact that the other cartoon pile-it just simply knew his cartoon airplane better. :aok
almost forgot.....in those AAR's i posted.....they were new pilots.
the 38's use flowler flaps, which function differently than standard flaps also.
no they operate differently, they function the same.
follower flaps increase the lift developed by the wing by changing the shape of the wing and thereby changing the airflow. follower flaps do have a better lift/drag ratio than some other types of flaps but they still add drag.
your envelope comment is incorrect by deploying your flap you are leaving you planes most efficient state to a less efficient state which will temporarily give you better performance in one aspect of flight while at the same time giving you worse performance in another aspect of flight, in this case lift over speed.
what a pilot is doing in the real world when he deploys a low deflection of flaps to solve an angle problem is essentially leaving his envelope and entering his opponents envelope (which could be inherent or situational)
extreme deployments or extended deployments even of small amounts of deflection will result in a growing disadvantage vs. a similar aircraft that has maintained its most efficient state.
i.e. a 38 could close up its turn vs. a better turning spitfire by using its flap options however by doing so it should enter more and more into the area of flight where the more maneuverable spitfire becomes more and more superior.
that is how things should develop.
yes if the 38 gets a solution before the drawbacks of dropping his flaps reverses the advantage then all is well and good for the 38 pilot, and of course pilot skill is a factor, but not because the 38 pilot fought the fight in his envelope, at least not in the case you described above.
IIRC Widewing tested it, and the P-38L's dive flaps *do not* slow you down in AHII. Which is wierd, they should provide *some* drag, hanging out in the breeze and all, but they do not.
Again, the dive flaps on the P-38L (notice thorsim, the key word is "flaps" and not "brakes") were not meant to slow the plane down as they are not designed for such a job. As I mentioned in my previous post, the basic intent was to provide a nose up pitch to aid in dive recovery and stave off compressability. Yes, there was a drag penalty associated with it but the drag was not sufficient enough to slow the plane down like dive/air brakes would. The main contributor to energy loss that came from using the dive flaps was a result of the nose up pitch and not the drag from the dive flaps.
In AH, there never has been a drag penalty associated with them and if even if there was, the drag penalty would be minimul and wouldn't effect the P-38L's performance in anyway if deployed.
P-38 drivers in real life never used the dive flaps to slow them down like dive brakes.
ack-ack
of course if the disadvantages to dropping flaps are not represented or underrepresented in AH that relationship will obviously change as well, but please do not equate that to any sort of reality.
which might shed some light on why the flaps in AH are such a popular topic.
no offense
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t
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it makes people like myself who understand these things feel the need to comment.
they are called fowler flaps, not follower flaps. People like you should know this?
Thor, your desire for a combat flight simulator that mimics perfectly the physics of flight is comendable, but the reality is 95% of the ww2 flight combat game community would be frustrated and bored to tears participating in such a simulator. The ballistic skill requirement alone would run the vast majority out of the simulator.
AH is about as balanced a game/simulator as people like the rest of us could hope for.
Just leave it.
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Again, the dive flaps on the P-38L (notice thorsim, the key word is "flaps" and not "brakes") were not meant to slow the plane down as they are not designed for such a job. As I mentioned in my previous post, the basic intent was to provide a nose up pitch to aid in dive recovery and stave off compressability. Yes, there was a drag penalty associated with it but the drag was not sufficient enough to slow the plane down like dive/air brakes would. The main contributor to energy loss that came from using the dive flaps was a result of the nose up pitch and not the drag from the dive flaps.
P-38 drivers in real life never used the dive flaps to slow them down like dive brakes.
ack-ack
I did see a film of their purpose on Great Planes I believe. The dive 'brakes' according to the program [And the supporting war time film, possibly a pilot training film] did not and were not designed to slow the plane down to non-compressible speeds. Instead they changed the shape of main wing's airfoil which caused the turbulent flow to exit the wing at much lower point restoring laminar flow to the evelator at the tail section. This restored elevator operation and allowed the plane to pull out of the dive. I believe this was developed in leu of forcing the plane to slow down. It is relavant to notice that the elevators of the Lightning are almost in the same plane as the main wing. I think this is why the plane suffered from compression effects more than other planes.
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Vinkman, instead of analyzing films, which is always a good idea, have you tried flying the P-38 and duplicating the zoom and reversal?
Sorry if I missed this somewhere in this discussion.
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Climb rate is a good comparison. 38 vertical performance should not be better than planes with better climb rates.
no, as climb rate is not used in combat. climb rate is how you get to combat altitude.
Vx is your best angle of climb.
Vy is your best rate of climb.
i always get these backwards.........at your best rate of climb, you'll get to a higher altitude in a shorter time, but will cover more distance. at your best angle of climb, you'll get to a higher altitude in a shorter distance, but it'll take ya a little longer. golfer of someone will correct me if i got em backwards again(i hope).
now, since you're not attempting to sustain a climb during combat, these numbers are irrelevant. when you go nose up in anything, you're not staying that way very long........you're either going to roll over, or drop it off to one side or the other, hoping to gain a better position.
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no matter how much you guys talk up the 38 I still cant fly that thing at all, and I am amazed at how some of the better sticks are in it, and think to my self, man I'm glad he's not in a spit :rofl
would you believe, that with the exception of the zeek, i have a little trouble in single engine planes now? :noid
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ok i am back from my weekend trip and i see many of you have been having a good time in my absence ...
lots of stuff that i feel the need to comment on, this may take some time ...
you are incorrect sir the flaps, B-R-A-K-E-S, or whatever else you call them slow you down.
easy to check just deploy any of them (including any follower types) in level flight and see what they do while you maintain level flight. they will slow you down.
they also do other things but they all increase drag(usually several different kinds of drag) and drag reduces your speed "."
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t
this is where you're losing it. look at the pictures that akak posted. they do NOT slow you down. they simply change the center of lift on the wing, causing a nose up pitch.
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I did see a film of their purpose on Great Planes I believe. The dive 'brakes' according to the program [And the supporting war time film, possibly a pilot training film] did not and were not designed to slow the plane down to non-compressible speeds. Instead they changed the shape of main wing's airfoil which caused the turbulent flow to exit the wing at much lower point restoring laminar flow to the evelator at the tail section. This restored elevator operation and allowed the plane to pull out of the dive. I believe this was developed in leu of forcing the plane to slow down. It is relavant to notice that the elevators of the Lightning are almost in the same plane as the main wing. I think this is why the plane suffered from compression effects more than other planes.
did you read any of the AAR's? the fowler flaps are used for maneuvering. ingame, we don't drop our flaps, and leave em out. we're constantly working our flaps, throttles, and everything else.
dive BRAKES are what you find on a ju88. dive FLAPS are what you find on a p38. they are for high speed dive recovery. read the link. it's all there.
i think around mach .65 is when the 38 starts to tuck under. these recovery flaps change the lift profile of the wing, causing it to pitch the nose up, helping recover from the dive.
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yeager i agree ...
however it is much easier to take things lightly (as i did in my first post in this thread) when people do not jump on you with their incorrect contradictions to you posts, accusations of one sort or another, finding major faults with minor misnomers on an otherwise correct point, generally being argumentative about things, and trying to justify game situations with poor arguments about how the game "mimics" real life.
as you stated it does, and it does not.
i do not have a problem with that so much, it is the "justification" arguments that are difficult for me to ignore, that and people focusing on minor irrelevant errors i may have made in an effort to undermine the general accuracy of one of my points.
i am fine with approaching the game as a game. lets then just not confuse the issue with reality at all, or discussions about how "you just don't know anything" because you notice something inaccurate that other people may like about a game, in those cases imo it is much easier to tolerate a "well it is just a game" statement like yours than a bunch of people posting incorrect statements in an attempt to justify an incorrect situation in the game.
i've had 12 years of that stuff and my tolerance has worn thin ...
no offense to anyone ...
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t
they are called fowler flaps, not follower flaps. People like you should know this?
Thor, your desire for a combat flight simulator that mimics perfectly the physics of flight is comendable, but the reality is 95% of the ww2 flight combat game community would be frustrated and bored to tears participating in such a simulator. The ballistic skill requirement alone would run the vast majority out of the simulator.
AH is about as balanced a game/simulator as people like the rest of us could hope for.
Just leave it.
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so then they help you in a climb, and do not hinder your top level speed ???
they do NOT slow you down.
they slow you down, can gravity and thrust compensate? sure.
do they do other things like change AOA? sure.
however that does not change the fact that they slow you down, at least in the real world.
just like Fowler flaps slow you down ...
in the real world.
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t
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The problem is that you have failed to find a single instance where the P-38's flight performance ingame is unrealistic. You keep harping on flaps, acting as if they are modeled incorrectly in AHII. In r/l flaps increase both lift and drag...in AHII they increase both lift and drag...and deploying too much flaps in AHII brings about diminishing returns too.
yeager i agree ...
however it is much easier to take things lightly (as i did in my first post in this thread) when people do not jump on you with their incorrect contradictions to you posts, accusations of one sort or another, finding major faults with minor misnomers on an otherwise correct point, generally being argumentative about things, and trying to justify game situations with poor arguments about how the game "mimics" real life.
as you stated it does, and it does not.
i do not have a problem with that so much, it is the "justification" arguments that are difficult for me to ignore, that and people focusing on minor irrelevant errors i may have made in an effort to undermine the general accuracy of one of my points.
i am fine with approaching the game as a game. lets then just not confuse the issue with reality at all, or discussions about how "you just don't know anything" because you notice something inaccurate that other people may like about a game, in those cases imo it is much easier to tolerate a "well it is just a game" statement like yours than a bunch of people posting incorrect statements in an attempt to justify an incorrect situation in the game.
i've had 12 years of that stuff and my tolerance has worn thin ...
no offense to anyone ...
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t
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A few things for those who do not know to consider.
The P-38 had a rather thick wing, called a high aspect ratio wing. It was there for two reasons. One, there is no place in the P-38 fuselage to carry fuel, and the P-38 was designed to be a long range high altitude bomber interceptor. That means it was intended to fly over 500 miles one way, at high altitude, and intercept enemy bombers. So it needed a lot of internal fuel capacity (there were no drop tanks being used in 1937/1938). And in the original design, the intercooler was in the leading edge of the outer wing, so there was no fuel in the outer wing. Only in the later J and L models did the leading edge of the outer wing become a fuel tank as opposed to an intercooler. The other reason for that thick wing, once it was chosen to allow for fuel capacity, is for its climbing ability. That high aspect ratio wing meant that although the P-38 carried a fair amount of weight per square foot of wing, the actual wing loading was easily handled by the more efficient (for climbing) high aspect ratio wing.
When you compare wing loading simply by pounds per square foot, and ignore the wing profile itself, you give yourself a false result, and you are not accurately comparing true wing loading.
The fault of this thick wing was that at higher speeds, it forced air to accelerate to speeds between just sub sonic, to super sonic. The wing itself, by design, was speed limited.
Early on, they changed the radius of the fillet joint where the wing joined the center nacelle. This joint was actually so critical that the fit had to be perfect from the leading edge all the way past the cockpit window. Any problems with the fit there lead to instability and early onset of compression.
While the P-38 was heavier than a P-51, it also had over 3200HP (in the P-38J, the P-38L had over 3450HP), and that 3200HP was producing thrust through two propellers. So, the P-38 had nearly double the HP of the P-51, but it was not double the weight, and the HP of the P-38 was generating its thrust through two propellers. So, once again, when you compare power to weight, if you ignore the difference in thrust, you also get a false result, preventing a correct and useful comparison.
Fowler flaps not only change the shape of the wing, and do so while creating less drag, they also change the chord and the aspect ratio, which makes them a good bit more efficient than other flap designs. And the Fowler flaps on the P-38 were, according to most, more efficient than the Fowler flaps on the P-47.
The dive flaps installed on the P-38, according to Kelly Johnson, added very little drag. The reason for this is they changed the shape of the wing, and reduced the high speed turbulence that was a part of the compression problem. The turbulence created as part of the compression problem caused a serious disruption in air flow over the wing, actually increasing drag. That is why if the dive flaps were deployed after a dive began, and after the onset of buffeting, they would momentarily increase the buffeting, before reducing the buffeting. But they would not slow the plane down. Some pilots reported that the plane actually increased its speed after the dive flaps were deployed. The dive flaps also gave a momentary "pitch up" of about 15 degrees if deployed when not diving.
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The dive-flaps we were speaking of don't do anything except help the nose pitch up at high speeds.
We were not discussing the maneuvering flaps, who do cause drag in game.
so then they help you in a climb, and do not hinder your top level speed ???
they slow you down, can gravity and thrust compensate? sure.
do they do other things like change AOA? sure.
however that does not change the fact that they slow you down, at least in the real world.
just like Fowler flaps slow you down ...
in the real world.
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t
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A few things for those who do not know to consider.
The P-38 had a rather thick wing, called a high aspect ratio wing.
Aspect ratio actually defined the square of the wingspan divided by the area of the wing...for us country boys, that means long narrow wings like on a glider have a high aspect ratio and short stubby ones are low aspect ratio. But you are right, the P-38 *does* have relatively high aspect ratio and this is a positive for it in turns and climbs.
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so changing the AOA and the constant skid that results (airframe not in line with it's direction in the pitch axis) does not result in a loss of speed?
are you really trying to make that argument?
tell me are the dive flaps stated as inconsequential to top speed in level flight in the POH? or do they suggest you might go faster with them up?
The dive-flaps we were speaking of don't do anything except help the nose pitch up at high speeds.
We were not discussing the maneuvering flaps, who do cause drag in game.
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so changing the AOA and the constant skid that results (airframe not in line with it's direction in the pitch axis) does not result in a loss of speed?
are you really trying to make that argument?
tell me are stated as inconsequential to top speed in level flight in the POH?
Are you *sure* you've grokked the fact that the dive flaps on the 38 and the maneuvering flaps are two different things???
What it amounts to is that in game that the dive flaps don't even offer the 38L an advantage in deceleration. The only thing they offer the 38L pilot is increased ability to pull out of compressability dives. They have nothing to do with maneuverability, decleration, or anything else that could conceivably be an advantage in combat or an ACM "trick".
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I did see a film of their purpose on Great Planes I believe. The dive 'brakes' according to the program [And the supporting war time film, possibly a pilot training film] did not and were not designed to slow the plane down to non-compressible speeds. Instead they changed the shape of main wing's airfoil which caused the turbulent flow to exit the wing at much lower point restoring laminar flow to the evelator at the tail section. This restored elevator operation and allowed the plane to pull out of the dive. I believe this was developed in leu of forcing the plane to slow down. It is relavant to notice that the elevators of the Lightning are almost in the same plane as the main wing. I think this is why the plane suffered from compression effects more than other planes.
Vinkman, you are wrong. The relationship between the positions of the wings and the elevator has nothing to do with compression, or how it effects the P-38. Ignore "Great Planes" and the rest of the television crap. They are wrong, very wrong. To get the truth, you have to read.
Compression on the P-38 was strictly a function of the profile of the wing of the P-38. There was no such thing as elevator flutter on the P-38 either. Some general had those little counterweights added to the elevator on the P-38. They did nothing at all, as not only was there no elevator flutter, but Kelly Johnson had already not only put counterweights on the inside the elevator, but he also had the skin made thicker and the internal bracing increased, in order to make the elevator heavier and more stable. Kelly Johnson, in referring to those external counterweights, was quoted as saying "they were useless, they didn't do a damned thing, other than maybe kill some pilots who had to bail out".
Again, the two things that increased the speed at which compression began, and reduced the effects of compression, were the increase in the radius of the fillet joint where the wing attached to the center nacelle (along with improved fit) and the dive flaps. Nothing that was done to the elevator after the original design helped.
When the P-38 (or any plane, as the P-47 suffered from compression as well) entered into compression, the elevator didn't matter at all, as no deflection of the elevator could overcome the amount of force that the wing, suffering under compression, was pushing down on the nose with. In fact, if it had been possible to get the elevator on the P-38 to deflect enough to force the nose up, the tail would snap off under the load. In fact, Lockheed test pilot Ralph Virden was likely killed when the spring tab apparently broke on the elevator in a dive, allowing the elevator to reach full deflection. The entire tail section snapped off, and Virden was killed in the resulting crash.
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so then they help you in a climb, and do not hinder your top level speed ???
they slow you down, can gravity and thrust compensate? sure.
do they do other things like change AOA? sure.
however that does not change the fact that they slow you down, at least in the real world.
just like Fowler flaps slow you down ...
in the real world.
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t
Sticking your arm outside of your car window at 55mph, sure you introduce drag but does it slow you down enough that sticking your arm out results in a braking motion? No, and the same for the dive flaps on the P-38. Yes, they did introduce drag and but was the drag sufficient enough to bleed energy as though you applied an air brake? No.
Just looking at the design of the dive flaps, one can clearly see that the function was not to slow the plane down but affect the center of pressure distribution so that the wing would not lose its lift. They did not bleed energy like the Fowler and normal flaps when deployed.
Dive Flaps
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/p38diveflaps.gif)
[click on image for larger picture]
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/dsc00727-t.jpg) (http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/dsc00727.jpg) (http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/dsc00730-t.jpg) (http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/dsc00730.jpg)
P-38 hybrid flap system (Fowler + conventional hinged flap)
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/p38fowler.gif)
As you can see, it's easy to spot which one has a significant impact on the P-38's energy when deployed.
ack-ack
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so then they help you in a climb, and do not hinder your top level speed ???
they slow you down, can gravity and thrust compensate? sure.
do they do other things like change AOA? sure.
however that does not change the fact that they slow you down, at least in the real world.
just like Fowler flaps slow you down ...
in the real world.
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t
read this.
http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/p38info.htm
saying that dive flaps slow you down, but gravity and thrust compensate, is like saying global warming causes cooler temps.
http://books.google.com/books?id=qhEkkjp1bnMC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=p-38+dive+recovery+flaps&source=bl&ots=O9FVVBMGeJ&sig=L5jvEKo-DnZJuAphnFgtl_kZ6gI&hl=en&ei=mxe-Sof-LMeg8AbH842hAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false
the dive recovery flaps change the lift of the wing. THIS causes a pitch up in the nose. the pitch up eventually causes you to slow down a little.
maneuvering flaps are used for...well.....maneuvering. ponys have them too. in fact, i think ponys can deploy 10 degrees at over 400 mph, but i'll let a pony driver fill us in on that.
what you need to do, is to fly the bird. fly it here. you'll see all of what we're all trying to tell you.
sometimes, you seem as if you are a pretty sensible guy. would common sense not suggest that if everyone else is saying one thing, and you're saying another, that maybe...just maybe, you might not be right?
i snipped the film down...i'll post it soon as i eat something.
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so how is that an argument for correctness?
Are you *sure* you've grokked the fact that the dive flaps on the 38 and the maneuvering flaps are two different things???
What it amounts to is that in game that the dive flaps don't even offer the 38L an advantage in deceleration. The only thing they offer the 38L pilot is increased ability to pull out of compressability dives. They have nothing to do with maneuverability, decleration, or anything else that could conceivably be an advantage in combat or an ACM "trick".
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The problem is that you have failed to find a single instance where the P-38's flight performance ingame is unrealistic. You keep harping on flaps, acting as if they are modeled incorrectly in AHII. In r/l flaps increase both lift and drag...in AHII they increase both lift and drag...and deploying too much flaps in AHII brings about diminishing returns too.
when will HTC himself pop in here?
does this guy know that ht has real time in a pony? and owns and flys his own aerobatic airplane?
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Reading would help answer so many questions.
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when will HTC himself pop in here?
does this guy know that ht has real time in a pony? and owns and flys his own aerobatic airplane?
Considering how HiTech was basically conversing with a brick wall in Thorsim's last thread, I don't think HiTech is willing to go through it all again.
ack-ack
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so changing the AOA and the constant skid that results (airframe not in line with it's direction in the pitch axis) does not result in a loss of speed?
are you really trying to make that argument?
tell me are the dive flaps stated as inconsequential to top speed in level flight in the POH? or do they suggest you might go faster with them up?
actually, when the nose pitches up, the direction of travel changes accordingly.
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Thorsim:
You are very hard to pin down aren't you? You started by alleging that the dive flaps and maneuvering flaps allow unrealistic ACM tricks. It has been shown that the dive flaps don't do anything useful to ACM and that the maneuvering flaps don't do anything they are not supposed to do, yet you continue to harp. Yes I imagine leaving the dive flaps hanging out in the breeze would cost you a few MPH in top speed, but so what? No one flies around the arenas when the things hanging out, they offer nothing except for when you want to pull out of a dive.
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Vinkman, you are wrong. The relationship between the positions of the wings and the elevator has nothing to do with compression, or how it effects the P-38. Ignore "Great Planes" and the rest of the television crap. They are wrong, very wrong. To get the truth, you have to read....
COUGH!
Actually.... no. (not meant at you Hicks)
Downwash and aeroelastic bending of the tail boom was the P-38s problem. You can read all about it and the design of the P-38 'brakes' in the book 'Mechanics of Flight' by Warren F. Phillips (chapter 6). Dont bother reading this book if you dont understand calculus and physics (and I mean understand).
"Compressibility effects at high subsonic airspeeds can amplify the tendency for an airplane to tuck under in a dive as a result of aeroelastic bending."
The full description of the problem with the P-38 and the phenomenon are included and the relationship of wing (airflow) and tail position are all important but in the case of high subsonic airspeeds the placement is redundant since there is no good place to be.
In the case of the P-38 in particular (because of tail boom flexibility) continued flight at high subsonic airspeed should permanently affect the aircrafts ability to manoeuvre but it is also true of every airplane in the game.
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guys i believe the stand i took issue with is that "the dive brakes did not slow the plane down".
that statement is false "."
you can introduce all the design intent and situational exceptions you wish ...
but it does not change the fact that the above statement is false, even if AH does not model it that way.
my problem with the flaps is that they are distributed subjectively, and that the liabilities seem underrepresented to such an extent that the envelopes of the set are now very suspect.
if you do not believe me please investigate what the F4U-POH says about flap deployments over 20deg and how that contradicts the situation in the game, and explain the p-40 flap deployment speeds relative to its POH.
BTW i am still waiting to hear any accounts of combat with flap deflections anywhere near the kinds used in the game that some people are finding success with.
it is a video game, don't try and justify the way you play it with real world examples, you can't.
it is just a game.
++S++
t
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so changing the AOA and the constant skid that results (airframe not in line with it's direction in the pitch axis) does not result in a loss of speed?
are you really trying to make that argument?
tell me are the dive flaps stated as inconsequential to top speed in level flight in the POH? or do they suggest you might go faster with them up?
The dive flaps on the P-38 do not change the angle of attack of anything. They do not result in a constant skid.
At top speed in level flight, a P-38 cannot reach compression. The only P-38 that could come close was the P-38K, and it did not do it either. So the dive flaps are irrelevant to top speed in level flight. They were not designed to be deployed there, and would not work there for their intended purpose. At speeds below 0.65 Mach, the air flow over the wing was not disrupted by compression, and therefor was not the same as the air flow at speeds over 0.65 Mach. Meaning what the dive flaps did below 0.65 Mach had absolutely no bearing on what the dive flaps did above 0.65 Mach.
The only thing the dive flaps do is change the shape of the wing to reduce the effects of compression, which is caused by the speed of the air over the wing going just sub sonic and super sonic in places.
I have no idea where you are getting the idea that the dive flap, deployed when the plane is in compression, changes the angle of attack. All it does, according to the Lockheed engineers that design it, is change the shape of the wing and redirect airflow over it so that the wing does not lose lift and cause the nose to tuck.
As a side note, compression would not cause the P-38 to break up, and even without the dive flaps, you could pull out of a dive if you stayed with the plane and continued to fly it. Colonel Cass Hough, P-38 test pilot and USAAF officer, dove from over 38,000 feet at an angle of 45 degrees, through 20,000 feet, recovering well before he came close to hitting the ground at over 7,000 feet. All of this in an early P-38 without dive flaps. And Tony Levier, a civilian Lockheed test pilot, who was the test pilot assigned with the comprehensive dive flap test program, reported speeds of 0.72 Mach and safe pull outs of 7.5G.
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my problem with the flaps is that they are distributed subjectively, and that the liabilities seem underrepresented to such an extent that the envelopes of the set are now very suspect.
The reason you do not hear much about flap settings beyond a certain limit in r/l is that beyond a certain point they harm, rather than helps, sustained turn rate.
In AHII, beyond a certain point, flap deployment harms rather than helps sustained turn rate.
HMMMMMMMMM....
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COUGH!
Actually.... no.
Downwash and aeroelastic bending of the tail boom was the P-38s problem. You can read all about it and the design of the P-38 'brakes' in the book 'Mechanics of Flight' by Warren F. Phillips (chapter 6). Dont bother reading this book if you dont understand calculus and physics (and I mean understand).
"Compressibility effects at high subsonic airspeeds can amplify the tendency for an airplane to tuck under in a dive as a result of aeroelastic bending."
The full description of the problem with the P-38 and the phenomenon are included and the relationship of wing (airflow) and tail position are all important but in the case of high subsonic airspeeds the placement is redundant since there is no good place to be.
In the case of the P-38 in particular (because of tail boom flexibility) continued flight at high subsonic airspeed should permanently affect the aircrafts ability to manoeuvre but it is also true of every airplane in the game.
Absolutely untrue. I don't care what Warren Phillips says. I'll take the words of Hall Hibbard, Kelly Johnson, Colonel Ben Kelsey, Colonel Cass Hough, Tony Levier, and Milo Burcham, over Warren Phillips every time. Why you ask? Because every person I mentioned was either a design engineer on the P-38 who solved the compression problem, or a test pilot who flew the compression program. Read my post above, where Tony Levier, who flew the test program on compression and dive flaps for months, dove to Mach 0.72, and pulled 7.5G recoveries from those dives, in the P-38 during that program.
They moved the tail on the P-38, and ended up putting it right back where it was. That comes directly from the Lockheed P-38 program records from 1937 until the program ended in 1945.
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Vinkman, you are wrong. The relationship between the positions of the wings and the elevator has nothing to do with compression, or how it effects the P-38. Ignore "Great Planes" and the rest of the television crap. They are wrong, very wrong. To get the truth, you have to read.
When the P-38 (or any plane, as the P-47 suffered from compression as well) entered into compression, the elevator didn't matter at all, as no deflection of the elevator could overcome the amount of force that the wing, suffering under compression, was pushing down on the nose with.
Yours is a different description of the 'compression' than I've seen before. True I haven't read any Kelly Johnson papers on the subject. Maybe I should. :salute
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guys i believe the stand i took issue with is that "the dive brakes did not slow the plane down".
that statement is false "."
you can introduce all the design intent and situational exceptions you wish ...
but it does not change the fact that the above statement is false, even if AH does not model it that way.
++S++
t
And you are more qualified to state that than the original engineers who designed the plane, and the test pilots who flew the plane, are to say the reverse is actually true? :rofl
So now you are smarter than Lockheed engineers and Lockheed test pilots? :rofl
So, please, as we all wait with anxious anticipation, tell us about all the planes you designed and all the planes you have flown as a test pilot. Please, I just cannot wait to hear what world altering planes you are credited with designing and flying. :x
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i was also questioning the reasoning and understanding of some of the other experts in this discussion.
so the misinformation you read in my post was not my own and i was not taking much credit in it my self, it was more of an "ok if this is true ..." approach.
my main point of contention was about their stating that somehow secondary flight control surfaces on the p-38 are not subject to the same laws of physics as they would be on other aircraft.
i was of the opinion they were incorrect just as you were, i am sorry my approach confused you.
good posts so far you seem to take such things as physics and aerodynamics into account instead of attempting to ignore them. i believe someone was attempting to state that mass was inconsequential to maneuverability somewhere earlier in this thread.
sigh ...
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t
The dive flaps on the P-38 do not change the angle of attack of anything. They do not result in a constant skid.
At top speed in level flight, a P-38 cannot reach compression. The only P-38 that could come close was the P-38K, and it did not do it either. So the dive flaps are irrelevant to top speed in level flight. They were not designed to be deployed there, and would not work there for their intended purpose. At speeds below 0.65 Mach, the air flow over the wing was not disrupted by compression, and therefor was not the same as the air flow at speeds over 0.65 Mach. Meaning what the dive flaps did below 0.65 Mach had absolutely no bearing on what the dive flaps did above 0.65 Mach.
The only thing the dive flaps do is change the shape of the wing to reduce the effects of compression, which is caused by the speed of the air over the wing going just sub sonic and super sonic in places.
I have no idea where you are getting the idea that the dive flap, deployed when the plane is in compression, changes the angle of attack. All it does, according to the Lockheed engineers that design it, is change the shape of the wing and redirect airflow over it so that the wing does not lose lift and cause the nose to tuck.
As a side note, compression would not cause the P-38 to break up, and even without the dive flaps, you could pull out of a dive if you stayed with the plane and continued to fly it. Colonel Cass Hough, P-38 test pilot and USAAF officer, dove from over 38,000 feet at an angle of 45 degrees, through 20,000 feet, recovering well before he came close to hitting the ground at over 7,000 feet. All of this in an early P-38 without dive flaps. And Tony Levier, a civilian Lockheed test pilot, who was the test pilot assigned with the comprehensive dive flap test program, reported speeds of 0.72 Mach and safe pull outs of 7.5G.
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COUGH!
Actually.... no. (not meant at you Hicks)
Downwash and aeroelastic bending of the tail boom was the P-38s problem. You can read all about it and the design of the P-38 'brakes' in the book 'Mechanics of Flight' by Warren F. Phillips (chapter 6). Dont bother reading this book if you dont understand calculus and physics (and I mean understand).
"Compressibility effects at high subsonic airspeeds can amplify the tendency for an airplane to tuck under in a dive as a result of aeroelastic bending."
The full description of the problem with the P-38 and the phenomenon are included and the relationship of wing (airflow) and tail position are all important but in the case of high subsonic airspeeds the placement is redundant since there is no good place to be.
In the case of the P-38 in particular (because of tail boom flexibility) continued flight at high subsonic airspeed should permanently affect the aircrafts ability to manoeuvre but it is also true of every airplane in the game.
Chanllenge thanks for the reference. I will read the book.
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Absolutely untrue. I don't care what Warren Phillips says. I'll take the words of Hall Hibbard, Kelly Johnson, Colonel Ben Kelsey, Colonel Cass Hough, Tony Levier, and Milo Burcham, over Warren Phillips every time. Why you ask? Because every person I mentioned was either a design engineer on the P-38 who solved the compression problem, or a test pilot who flew the compression program. Read my post above, where Tony Levier, who flew the test program on compression and dive flaps for months, dove to Mach 0.72, and pulled 7.5G recoveries from those dives, in the P-38 during that program.
They moved the tail on the P-38, and ended up putting it right back where it was. That comes directly from the Lockheed P-38 program records from 1937 until the program ended in 1945.
It doesnt matter where the tail is it will have the same problem. You are arguing against yourself here since my post agreed with you. The problem is exactly as I stated it and is not in disagreement with the engineers at all but they had no way to know the tail booms were flexing. By the way the dives that killed pilots like Ralph Virden were not shallow dives of 45 degrees. Phillips is correct.
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no actually the Lockheed Engineer i discussed this subject with this afternoon agreed with me and kelly johnston that the unadjusted p38 was more efficient than one with any of the secondary flight controls deployed.
that is probably why the p38 had to be adjusted to use these devices in the first place.
the flaps slow the plane down, in the real world.
"."
++S++
off to play
t
And you are more qualified to state that than the original engineers who designed the plane, and the test pilots who flew the plane, are to say the reverse is actually true? :rofl
So now you are smarter than Lockheed engineers and Lockheed test pilots? :rofl
So, please, as we all wait with anxious anticipation, tell us about all the planes you designed and all the planes you have flown as a test pilot. Please, I just cannot wait to hear what world altering planes you are credited with designing and flying. :x
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Yours is a different description of the 'compression' than I've seen before. True I haven't read any Kelly Johnson papers on the subject. Maybe I should. :salute
Again, as stated repeatedly here in this thread, the truth, the absolute gospel on the P-38, can be found in the book "The Lockheed P-38 Lighting", authored by Warren Bodie, A Lockheed engineer, who had for sources almost all of the original design staff, and almost all of the original test pilot crew. Bodie had access to the Lockheed archives, Clarence E. "Kelly" Johnson (the man who is considered the father of the P-38, along with the U-2, the F-104, and the SR-71), Colonel Ben Kelsey(the USAAF test pilot and liaison to Lockheed for the P-38 program), Tony Levier (who ended up with more hours as a P-38 test pilot than anyone, and who raced one after the war), and a host of other people too numerous to mention. Bodie goes in to incredible detail in describing what really happened during the 8 years Lockheed was designing and producing the plane, covering in detail the issues with compression and with the dive flaps, as well as engine development,and just about everything else relating to the P-38.
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Chanllenge thanks for the reference. I will read the book.
I recommend a used copy: http://www.amazon.com/Mechanics-Flight-Warren-F-Phillips/dp/0471334588/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254191851&sr=8-2
There is a LOT more than just the problems with the P-38 and it is VERY heavy on math and physics.
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no actually the Lockheed Engineer i discussed this subject with this afternoon agreed with me and kelly johnston that the unadjusted p38 was more efficient than one with any of the secondary flight controls deployed.
that is probably why the p38 had to be adjusted to use these devices in the first place.
the flaps slow the plane down, in the real world.
"."
++S++
off to play
t
Yeah, right. Show me where Kelly Johnson ever said that. I've read just about every Kelly Johnson statement on the P-38 that's been recorded for history. The dive flaps do not slow the plane down when it is diving at or above compression speeds of 0.65 Mach. If they did, it would never reach 0.72 Mach.
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no actually the Lockheed Engineer i discussed this subject with this afternoon agreed with me and kelly johnston that the unadjusted p38 was more efficient than one with any of the secondary flight controls deployed.
that is probably why the p38 had to be adjusted to use these devices in the first place.
the flaps slow the plane down, in the real world.
"."
++S++
off to play
t
and the flaps slow the plane down in the cartoon ah world too. :aok
and now another question, since at one point you were on the maneuvering flaps.
when you drop out say......10 degrees of flaps, what happens?
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Again, as stated repeatedly here in this thread, the truth, the absolute gospel on the P-38, can be found in the book "The Lockheed P-38 Lighting", authored by Warren Bodie, A Lockheed engineer, who had for sources almost all of the original design staff, and almost all of the original test pilot crew. Bodie had access to the Lockheed archives, Clarence E. "Kelly" Johnson (the man who is considered the father of the P-38, along with the U-2, the F-104, and the SR-71), Colonel Ben Kelsey(the USAAF test pilot and liaison to Lockheed for the P-38 program), Tony Levier (who ended up with more hours as a P-38 test pilot than anyone, and who raced one after the war), and a host of other people too numerous to mention. Bodie goes in to incredible detail in describing what really happened during the 8 years Lockheed was designing and producing the plane, covering in detail the issues with compression and with the dive flaps, as well as engine development,and just about everything else relating to the P-38.
I will check out that book as well. We are way off topic, but this is a facinating subject.
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umm ...
you need to re read this thread ...
no offense ...
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t
Yeah, right. Show me where Kelly Johnson ever said that. I've read just about every Kelly Johnson statement on the P-38 that's been recorded for history. The dive flaps do not slow the plane down when it is diving at or above compression speeds of 0.65 Mach. If they did, it would never reach 0.72 Mach.
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it is what doesn't happen at 30-60 degrees that have problems with, that and when some planes get that 10deg relative to other planes.
and the flaps slow the plane down in the cartoon ah world too. :aok
and now another question, since at one point you were on the maneuvering flaps.
when you drop out say......10 degrees of flaps, what happens?
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he didn't have to the design says it for him ...
Yeah, right. Show me where Kelly Johnson ever said that. I've read just about every Kelly Johnson statement on the P-38 that's been recorded for history. The dive flaps do not slow the plane down when it is diving at or above compression speeds of 0.65 Mach. If they did, it would never reach 0.72 Mach.
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guys i believe the stand i took issue with is that "the dive brakes did not slow the plane down".
that statement is false "."
No, it's not false. The P-38 did not have dive brakes.
you can introduce all the design intent and situational exceptions you wish ...
Again, the increase of the drag from the dive flaps was rather minimul and any loss of energy from the dive flaps from themselves was also minimul. The loss of energy came from the nose pitch, not the flaps themselves.
but it does not change the fact that the above statement is false, even if AH does not model it that way.
Again, no dive brakes so the so the statement isn't false, especially when one can't differentiate between what dive brakes and dive flaps are.
As for why AH doesn't model the minimul drag of the dive flaps? Probably because the drag is so minimul that it really doesn't have an impact at all. Though, I would like to hear the official reason.
my problem with the flaps is that they are distributed subjectively, and that the liabilities seem underrepresented to such an extent that the envelopes of the set are now very suspect.
if you do not believe me please investigate what the F4U-POH says about flap deployments over 20deg and how that contradicts the situation in the game, and explain the p-40 flap deployment speeds relative to its POH.
it is a video game, don't try and justify the way you play it with real world examples, you can't.
it is just a game.
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t
No, I think your problem was pretty much summed up HiTech in your thread about being able to deploy flaps above the stated limits. Think another problem is that you really don't know how the dive flaps work in the P-38.
BTW i am still waiting to hear any accounts of combat with flap deflections anywhere near the kinds used in the game that some people are finding success with.
Speaking only as a long time P-38 flyer (one will be very hard pressed to find another player with as many flights in the P-38 as I do in AH + the years of AW and WB), these pilot reports of an engagement with some Me 109's is pretty much inline with how the experienced P-38 drivers in AH use their flaps. How these pilots described using their flaps pretty much mirrors how I use mine in game.
Lt.Richard Berry 370th Combat report June 14, 1944
“I was leading Yellow flight and we had completed our mission and were returning home at 3000 feet. We had lost our flight leader in clouds and haze after an identification pass at friendly A/C. We had just gone on instruments and were about to enter the overcast when we were bounced from 4 O’Clock by four Me 109s which had just broken out of the overcast. Yellow 2 called for me to break right into the E/A. The entire flight broke and I found myself after a half-turn of a Lufberry, turning inside the lead E/A. I fired a four second burst from 200 yards at approximately 20 degrees deflection and observed strikes on the engine. The E/A started to smoke and leveled off. I fell into trail behind him and fired a 6-second burst at 0 Degrees deflection and again observed strikes, this time on the fuselage and right wing root. Fire broke out and enveloped the entire right wing root as the E/A disappeared into cloud. I did not follow him because I was low on fuel. The other E/A disappeared into the clouds after the initial break. We all used our maneuver flaps and had no difficulty in out turning the E/A. I saw no one bail out from the plane I hit and in my opinion the pilot was hit and at least wounded on my first burst because he leveled off and flew at a very slight climb.”
Captain Paul Sabo, 370th FG July 31, 1944
“I was leading Blue Flight circling the target area giving Red Flight Top Cover as they were dive bombing the target. Circling above us at about 12,000 feet were 12 Me 109s. I kept watching them; then 8 of them half rolled and got behind my flight. I gave the order to jettison our bombs and break. I dropped flaps and started in a tight Lufberry. When I had completed one turn I was alone, and at that time I saw an Me 109 in a vertical turn coming in front of me so I started firing at him at a 90 degree deflection shot. He flew right into the pattern and I saw strikes on him from nose to tail. The plane seemed to shudder and slow down. I was about 200 yards when I started to fire. The Me 109 then made a 90 degree turn to the left and started to climb as if he was going to loop. I followed him, closing to about 100 yards, fired and saw strikes all over his canopy, fuselage and tail surfaces. As he was about at the top of his loop and almost on his back, I saw what looked like his canopy come off, as the plane seemed to hang there. It looked like I had wounded the pilot during the first 90 degree deflection shot and he was rolling it over on his back to jettison his canopy and bail out.
About that time I looked in my rear view mirror and saw an Me 109 on my tail. I dropped flaps and turned into him. He half rolled and went down. As I rolled out I saw an Me 109 coming down in front of me. I opened up again and gave him a 90-degree deflection shot. He ran into my pattern and I saw strikes all over the plane. I followed him and kept firing from directly behind him, seeing strikes on his tail surfaces. Then he proceeded to go down in a wild dive from about 5000 feet. I looked back in my mirror again, because all during this time I was still alone. My flight had left me. I saw another Me 109 coming in on my tail. I dropped flaps, leveled out and turned into him. He automatically went into a steep climb and I lost him in the sun. When I looked I saw no more enemy and called my Flight to join me.”
Lt. Royal Madden from the same Flight and same fight, July 31, 1944
“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.
We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.
Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”
ack-ack
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It doesnt matter where the tail is it will have the same problem. You are arguing against yourself here since my post agreed with you. The problem is exactly as I stated it and is not in disagreement with the engineers at all but they had no way to know the tail booms were flexing. By the way the dives that killed pilots like Ralph Virden were not shallow dives of 45 degrees. Phillips is correct.
Wrong again. According to reliable witness, chief tower operator F. B. Berger, at Grand Central Air Terminal, "Virden was in a shallow dive at around 3000 feet when the tail appeared to break away". The plane flipped inverted, and crashed upside down. The tail section floated away. It was YP-38 C/N 2202, Air Corps # AC39-689, the first YP-38.
According to Kelly Johnson, the spring tab operating link broke, causing the elevator to go to full deflection. At an altitude of less than 2000 feet, at a speed of over 300MPH, full elevator deflection would have loaded the tail booms of the fuselage far beyond any design criteria.
So no, Virden was not diving steeper than 45 degrees, there's no way to dive steeper than 45 degrees at less than 3000 feet and more than 300MPH, and not slam nose first into the ground in a crater 15 feet deep.
Other witnesses were quoted as saying "Virden was in a shallow dive at blinding speed headed back towards the Lockheed Burbank plant". Witnesses John Margwarth, collecting data from Virden's tests for Lockheed, and I.C. Thomas, a local real estate dealer, were both quoted as saying they saw the tail come off and float away, after Virden pulled up sharply, then the plane spun off to the side, flipped inverted, and crashed into a house.
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he didn't have to the design says it for him ...
Well, you'll pardon me but you claimed:
no actually the Lockheed Engineer i discussed this subject with this afternoon agreed with me and kelly johnston that the unadjusted p38 was more efficient than one with any of the secondary flight controls deployed.
But you have zero supporting evidence that Kelly Johnson ever made any such statement, ever.
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umm ...
you need to re read this thread ...
no offense ...
++S++
t
I have no need to reread this thread, once again, you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support any of your claims, at all.
Especially not this one:
no actually the Lockheed Engineer i discussed this subject with this afternoon agreed with me and kelly johnston that the unadjusted p38 was more efficient than one with any of the secondary flight controls deployed.
You have no proof Kelly Johnson said, felt, or believed anything of the sort. And honestly, I seriously doubt that you spoke to any current Lockheed engineer that even knew Kelly Johnson personally. The man retired about 30 years ago. And I also really doubt any engineer would agree with you on anything you say.
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Wrong again. According to reliable witness, ...
According to airspacemag:
Ralph Virden was the first to fall. Virden, a Lockheed test pilot was flying his P-38 through a dive test in November 1941 when the airplane pitched maniacally and became nearly uncontrollable because of what later came to be called “Mach tuck.” The twin-engine Lightning, gaining speed in the dive, was still well below the speed of sound, but the air accelerating over its wing was moving faster than the airplane itself. When Virden hit Mach .675, the airflow over the wings became supersonic. A shock wave leapt to life over the wing stubs between the fighter’s lozenge-like cockpit cab and its engine nacelles. The inboard wings suddenly stalled; the airplane slumped. The usually strong airstream that the wings guided back and down onto the fighter’s horizontal tail ceased, no longer counterbalancing the weight of the engines and forward structure. The nose rotated down—“tucked.”
This wouldn’t have come as a surprise to Virden. P-38 designer Kelly Johnson had been one of the first to postulate the effects of compressibility, the baffling behavior of air moving at supersonic speeds. So the P-38 that Virden was flying, one of the first of the twin-boom fighters to be built, had a raised tail, which had already been fitted with special devices to give it more muscle in the inevitable struggle to regain balanced flight.
I think I will stick to the views of Phillips.
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one question if there were no drag consequences to the dive flaps, and they solved a critical design flaw,
then why weren't they a fixed feature and not deployable/retractable ...
they offered a correction for a specific state of flight and were only an advantage then, otherwise they produced drag(slowed you down) and were then considered undesirable.
i assure you most anything you drop extend or add to an airplane adds drag, that would include the "i am a p-38 fanboy" banner btw ...
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And from page 2 of "Mach 1: Assaulting the Barrier"
Instead, the NACA developed small, wedge-shaped “dive flaps” that were popped out of the underside of the wing at the first sign of Mach tuck. Many to this day assume the dive flaps simply slowed the airplanes below shock wave speed, but the truth is that they restored enough of the wing’s lost lift to enable the pilot to pull out despite the tail’s recalcitrance. They worked well enough to also be installed on some of the P-38’s contemporaries: P-47 fighters, A-26 attack bombers, and the two earlier U.S. jets, the P-59 and P-80.
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/Mach_1.html
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According to airspacemag:
I think I will stick to the views of Phillips.
You may stick with whatever you like. I'm sure Phillips knows more about the crash than the eyewitnesses, especially the one who was recording data from the tests Virden had already completed. Not to mention the fact that the evidence (the plane could not have been in a 45+ degree dive and been near level at 3000 feet at the same time, and it could not have been in a 45+ degree dive at high speed at 3000 feet and ended up above ground after impact, nor would it have left more than 1/2 of the house standing) does not agree at all with his position. But you stick to whatever you want.
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And from page 2 of "Mach 1: Assaulting the Barrier"
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/Mach_1.html
Once again, you're quoting "airspace mag", where as I'm quoting the engineer who designed the airplane, as written by the engineer who worked for him for 20+ years.
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it is what doesn't happen at 30-60 degrees that have problems with, that and when some planes get that 10deg relative to other planes.
well, you tried to avoid answering the question.
so...answer my question please? what happens when you plunk down 10 degrees of flaps in level flight?
and if you're going where i think you are, with the 30-60 degree comment, you're wrong there too. BTW...the 38 doesn't have 60 degrees fo flaps. :D
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Phillips understands more about aerodynamics than just about anyone living today. None of what I have said or what he has written (except about Virdens death) are in disagreement with what you said or what the engineers said about the problem. You are just being argumentative because of what is going on between you and these other guys. Phillips isnt the only one to say this either as airspacemag reports the same thing.
Virden died because the spring loaded servo mechanism did its job too well and the load it put upon the tail broke the tail. So you could say (and you wouldnt be wrong) that his death was engineered but that sort of thing happens in war.
Johnson is not a god and engineers screw up sometimes. :(
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in the beginning of the film, i first nose up, with a speed advantage. you'll note though, that as i do, the zeek increases his speed.
as i come over the top, note, that i'm doing a mere 37mph, and as the nose drops, thanks to the thrust and counter rotating props, i really have good control of the aircraft. if you watch this same part from the zeeks view, you'll not he is having trouble holding her steady, at 164mph. at this point, his speed is still decreasing, and at the point i manage to score some hits on him, he was doing 87mph. again, if you watch from his view, there wasn't anywhere near the control authority that my 38 had.
second time up, i'm 900 ft higher, and nearly the same speed. he was 2.5k behind, and i pulled him in. i rolled out at the top of the first immel at about 164mph, with him 1.5 below and behind, still doing 273.
i pulled into my second immel, letting him think he had a shot on me. to be honest, i thought i might've made a mistake there. i was down to about 120, him at 160, now 600 below me. again, look from his views, and you'll see the fight he had to hold her steady, against torque.
this time i didn't hold it too well, and let her start stalling at around 75mph. at this point, he's doing 85mph, and fighting to control his ride.
using my rudders, flaps, and wide open throttle, i still have nearly full control of my aircraft, as i bring the nose over. he either stalls, or sees me nosing over, and brings his nose down to regain speed, but at this point, i'm already re-accelerated up to 157mph. using rudders, i try to bring my guns to bear, but i was too slow reacting.
seeing him in tight, and the fact that there is no way i can keep myself inside his turn, i extend to reset the fight.
third time up, about 800ft alt difference, and about 50mph. i was intending an immel, so i went nearly vertical, whereas he climbed more gently. top of first immel, he's 800 below me, at 188mph, i'm at 140mph.
i misjudged quite a bit, and never made it to the top of the second immel, and let her fall off at around 54mph. at this point, he's still doing 70, but can't keep climbing...and is heavily fighting his ride.
same deal...rudders, firewall it, and roll into him. he get his nose down, tries to regain speed, so he can avoid the attack. i kept full flaps out, as i wanted a little extra time, and they'd help force my nose up onto him, as i accelerated. he tries to turn into me, hoping to take away any shot i might have had, but i'm already back up to 160mph, with him about the same, giving me enough control to make a good shot happen.
now, bear in mind, i do truly believe i was more lucky than any good to have won this fight. the entire fight was almost 9 minutes, and he pinged me at least once, when i mis-judged one of my vertical moves.
the point here is, that the conditions were nearly equal each time i went up, yet i was able to hold it slightly longer than the zeek. i don't know what all is modeled in here, but i know flaps feel pretty right, on everything i've used em on. the rudder authority at those low speeds is amazing, leading me to believe that the prop blast is modeled in here too.
this would affect not only the rudders on the 38, but also the flaps, due to the positioning of the engines, again providing prop blast over them.
this is not an "L", but rather a "J" i was flying, so the only thing i had to control my speed going downhill(which i didn't use in this fight) was a forward slip.
i understand the numbers. numbers cannot, and do not tke into account the many many variables in a fight though, as shown here.
now to figure out how the hell to link the film.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?4yz2ykjyzzm
it's 4 minutes.
again, nothing i said above is meant derogatorily towards the zeek driver.
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one question if there were no drag consequences to the dive flaps, and they solved a critical design flaw,
then why weren't they a fixed feature and not deployable/retractable ...
they offered a correction for a specific state of flight and were only an advantage then, otherwise they produced drag(slowed you down) and were then considered undesirable.
i assure you most anything you drop extend or add to an airplane adds drag, that would include the "i am a p-38 fanboy" banner btw ...
Again, please point out where I said the dive flaps did not have any drag? The drag effect was minimul and any loss of speed was minimul, unlike the drag associated with the Fowler and the conventional hinged flaps the Lightning used. Yes, you could fly with the dive flaps deployed at lower speeds (300mph IAS and lower) and the speed loss associated with the drag on the dive flaps was minimul, the pilot did not have to increase power to compensate for the associated drag.
Your assertion that the dive flaps amounted to the same as dive brakes due to the associated drag when deployed is inaccurate and with no data to back the claim. Rather like your comment that how we use the flaps in the P-38 in AH in no way mirrors the reality of their usage in real life, and guess what? That was proven false too.
ack-ack
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one question if there were no drag consequences to the dive flaps, and they solved a critical design flaw,
then why weren't they a fixed feature and not deployable/retractable ...
they offered a correction for a specific state of flight and were only an advantage then, otherwise they produced drag(slowed you down) and were then considered undesirable.
i assure you most anything you drop extend or add to an airplane adds drag, that would include the "i am a p-38 fanboy" banner btw ...
They did not solve a "critical design flaw". There was no design flaw, the wing performed exactly as they knew it would. They knew in 1937 that the thicker wing was going to enter compression.
They were retractable because at speeds below 0.65 Mach they were not needed, and they did not work below 0.65 Mach.
No one, no one, has ever said they did anything other than alleviate compression symptoms, with the exception that I stated "if they were deployed at speeds where compression was not a problem, they would produce a momentary "pitch up" of 15 degrees." No where in that statement did I say anything about drag. A few pilots knew of that attribute, and even fewer used it. And it has nothing at all to do with how the dive flaps perform when deployed at speeds where compression is a problem.
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one question if there were no drag consequences to the dive flaps, and they solved a critical design flaw,
then why weren't they a fixed feature and not deployable/retractable ...
they offered a correction for a specific state of flight and were only an advantage then, otherwise they produced drag(slowed you down) and were then considered undesirable.
i assure you most anything you drop extend or add to an airplane adds drag, that would include the "i am a p-38 fanboy" banner btw ...
they provided no advantage. they provided a tool for a pilot to remove himself from a bad situation, should he have gotten into it.
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it does max out someplace between 30 and 60 and since you asked me what bothered me about flaps in general i don't see what is so funny about my 30-60 or earlier 60 degree comment. it is a statement in reference to flaps in general in AH.
why haven't you commented on my examples re the hog and hawk, their AH flaps and what their POHs say?
10 degrees you should get more lift and more drag in proportion to 10 degrees of deployment ...
anything else?
well, you tried to avoid answering the question.
so...answer my question please? what happens when you plunk down 10 degrees of flaps in level flight?
and if you're going where i think you are, with the 30-60 degree comment, you're wrong there too. BTW...the 38 doesn't have 60 degrees fo flaps. :D
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Phillips understands more about aerodynamics than just about anyone living today. None of what I have said or what he has written (except about Virdens death) are in disagreement with what you said or what the engineers said about the problem. You are just being argumentative because of what is going on between you and these other guys. Phillips isnt the only one to say this either as airspacemag reports the same thing.
Virden died because the spring loaded servo mechanism did its job too well and the load it put upon the tail broke the tail. So you could say (and you wouldnt be wrong) that his death was engineered but that sort of thing happens in war.
Johnson is not a god and engineers screw up sometimes. :(
The piece that broke was a spring tab operating link, it was not a spring loaded servo mechanism. The spring tab operating link was there to hook the spring tab to the elevator. It's not that it did its job too well, it's that it broke, and did not do its job at all.
I'm not being argumentative at all. I'm stating what the Lockheed people wrote, after the NACA reports in May 1942, and that they tried moving the tail, as suggested, but put it back where it was, because it did not solve the "tail flutter problem", and it did overload the air frame.
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it does max out someplace between 30 and 60 and since you asked me what bothered me about flaps in general i don't see what is so funny about my 30-60 or earlier 60 degree comment. it is a statement in reference to flaps in general in AH.
why haven't you commented on my examples re the hog and hawk, their AH flaps and what their POHs say?
10 degrees you should get more lift and more drag in proportion to 10 degrees of deployment ...
anything else?
yea...what does the airplane do when you put the flaps out?
p38 has 50 degrees.
i've flown the hog once or twice, and didn't last long enough to get to the point of flap deployment. i know the 38, pony, hurri, some of the spits, the zeeks, and the hellkitty.
the 38 is my ride of choice, because i'm FINALLY good enough in it to at least put up a good fight. she's always been my first love of aircraft...even before the p51. when all my friends were going apechit over the ponys, i was oogling the magnificent lines of the p38.
i don't know if htc has the different types of flaps modeled for their differences in here or not. the kat has full flaps i think, the spit n hurris have split flaps(either full up or full down) and i think the zeeks have split flaps.
when i feel the need to bring the nose round hard and fast, i pop flaps, and suck em back in as soon as i can.
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I really feel like this explains a lot in and of itself, remember that the P-38 has fowler flaps.
Flaps-per-se
(http://www.cheffers.co.uk/flaps1.GIF)
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I'm not being argumentative at all. I'm stating what the Lockheed people wrote, after the NACA reports in May 1942, and that they tried moving the tail, as suggested, but put it back where it was, because it did not solve the "tail flutter problem", and it did overload the air frame.
I understand that... I think you know that Lockheed simply didnt have the data and knowledge of aerodynamics that we have today or Johnson would have designed the P-38 with a full-flying stab (in fact it was recommended by NACA) but by the time that realization struck it was war time and Lockheed could not afford a redesign (neither could the U.S.).
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ya'll still talking about this?
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Hey, I've got my own type of flap! I knew I was loved. ;)
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Less than 2 days to get all those 38s at under $20! :D
http://skyunlimited.net/p38_fsx.htm
Im still tossing around buying those or waiting on Flight Sim Developers.
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ya'll still talking about this?
yep.
got a problem wit dat?
:noid
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yep.
got a problem wit dat?
:noid
Nope. Just want to see how long I can keep saying it. :noid
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Nope. Just want to see how long I can keep saying it. :noid
:aok :rofl :aok
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...remember that the P-38 has fowler flaps.
That statement can cause a lot of confusion because the P-38 didn't just have Fowler flaps, it had a conventional hinged flap system as well. It was a hybrid design, the Fowler flap (i.e. combat flaps) was the first setting, after that the flap system became more of hinged flap and had other flap settings.
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/p38fowler.gif)
ack-ack
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That statement can cause a lot of confusion because the P-38 didn't just have Fowler flaps, it had a conventional hinged flap system as well.
Don't confuse him even more, he can barely stand logic as it is!
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I'm thinking it's time for an emergency SAPP meeting with a vote to petition HTC for removal of the P38 from the game and all the SAPP pilots start flying Spitfire 16s.
I had no idea the 38 was such a problem! Never stopped me from dying, in a cartoon sorta way, ever :)
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I'm thinking it's time for an emergency SAPP meeting with a vote to petition HTC for removal of the P38 from the game and all the SAPP pilots start flying Spitfire 16s.
I had no idea the 38 was such a problem! Never stopped me from dying, in a cartoon sorta way, ever :)
can i fly a 9? i suck in the 16. :noid :rofl
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not sure what answer you are looking for here? only reason I posted about the F6f in the Blue Angels, is because I was refering that they started out with a WW2 Fighter plane. I do agree the Bearcat is a monster to a Hellcat sitting side by side.......I have no knowledge of the 2 different planes flying against each other though, or seen any flightsim where 2 people could simulate such an event......
Let me put it this way (having seen the Horsemen fly the Bearcat)...
A Hellcat and Bearcat take off at max power side by side and the rule is climb to 10k and land. When the Bearcat lands the hellcat is still climbing through 6k.
Here are some more photos you might not have seen.
http://www.flightof2photography.com/gallery.php
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Phillips understands more about aerodynamics than just about anyone living today. None of what I have said or what he has written (except about Virdens death) are in disagreement with what you said or what the engineers said about the problem. You are just being argumentative because of what is going on between you and these other guys. Phillips isnt the only one to say this either as airspacemag reports the same thing.
Virden died because the spring loaded servo mechanism did its job too well and the load it put upon the tail broke the tail. So you could say (and you wouldnt be wrong) that his death was engineered but that sort of thing happens in war.
Johnson is not a god and engineers screw up sometimes. :(
Doctors know alot about diseases... but if your not the one treating someone your just guessing.
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I'm thinking it's time for an emergency SAPP meeting with a vote to petition HTC for removal of the P38 from the game and all the SAPP pilots start flying Spitfire 16s.
I think that is a fabulous idea! It would be a nice response to all the new posters in this thread, you know the ones who HAVE to be related to Krusty.
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Doctors know alot about diseases... but if your not the one treating someone your just guessing.
Nice expression that is probably appropriate somewhere... but it doesnt mean squat.
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Give shuffler a break, he obviously just watched House, MD's new episode :aok
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I'm thinking it's time for an emergency SAPP meeting with a vote to petition HTC for removal of the P38 from the game and all the SAPP pilots start flying Spitfire 16s.
I had no idea the 38 was such a problem! Never stopped me from dying, in a cartoon sorta way, ever :)
great idea guppy. About time you lot got rid of the 2 engine Crutch and flew a mans plane. :lol thats if you can handle it at your age.
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I'm thinking it's time for an emergency SAPP meeting with a vote to petition HTC for removal of the P38 from the game and all the SAPP pilots start flying Spitfire 16s.
I had no idea the 38 was such a problem! Never stopped me from dying, in a cartoon sorta way, ever :)
I think we should come clean about Operation D.M.A.D.T., and how our real plan was to get the P-38 either so porked as to render it unflyable or removed entirely from the game.
ack-ack
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I think we should come clean about Operation D.M.A.D.T., and how our real plan was to get the P-38 either so porked as to render it unflyable or removed entirely from the game.
ack-ack
most of mine are unflyable
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hey i tried some of the maneuvers i have seen people do in the ma in a 38 and come to two conclusions, i cant do it so they MUST be cheating!!! :furious :furious :furious :furious :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Kidding... some of us cant accept that others may have practiced more or are just plain better don't perk it don't tweak it just leave it the way it is! I truly cant come close to some of the stuff Ive seen people do in a 38,but every once in a while you get them, and then all is a big warm fuzzy!
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You are sort of correct. All objects accelerate towards the ground at the same rate, regardless of mass (weight). The 2.2 ft/s is not correct. All objects accelerate at 32.2ft/sec/sec due to gravity. So after 1 sec they would falling at 32ft/s
Your obsolutely correct. I had to look it up and where I got that 2.2 feet per second is actually 2.2 feet at 1000 yrd shot for one of my guns. I'm I made a 101 overall grade in algebra and a 98 in geometry I feel so stupid, but thats been a long time ago :) I appreciate the correction.
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hey i tried some of the maneuvers i have seen people do in the ma in a 38 and come to two conclusions, i cant do it so they MUST be cheating!!! :furious :furious :furious :furious :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Kidding... some of us cant accept that others may have practiced more or are just plain better don't perk it don't tweak it just leave it the way it is! I truly cant come close to some of the stuff Ive seen people do in a 38,but every once in a while you get them, and then all is a big warm fuzzy!
:confused:
did i just read a common sense post?
:aok
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:confused:
did i just read a common sense post?
:aok
I believe you did Cap
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just to be clear i don't want to reduce the performance of the 38 or any other aircraft in isolation.
i just wish the games handled things differently in regards to flight and ACM do's and don'ts ...
we do throw these planes around a lot harder than could be reasonably explained away if we were in the real world, it would be a good thing IMO to have the consequences of "hanging it out" so much were represented more than they are currently.
for all the aircraft
no offense ...
++S++
t
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just to be clear i don't want to reduce the performance of the 38 or any other aircraft in isolation.
i just wish the games handled things differently in regards to flight and ACM do's and don'ts ...
we do throw these planes around a lot harder than could be reasonably explained away if we were in the real world, it would be a good thing IMO to have the consequences of "hanging it out" so much were represented more than they are currently.
for all the aircraft
no offense ...
++S++
t
but..........
there ARE consequences for "hanging it out" too much.
trust me i know. i die a LOT of cartoon deaths from that. :rofl
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yea i just think that we get away with way too much, don't you ?
but..........
there ARE consequences for "hanging it out" too much.
trust me i know. i die a LOT of cartoon deaths from that. :rofl
are you ok?
you seem to laughing a lot at things that are not funny, or is that some kind of fear response to the thought of loosing your video game entitlement?
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yea i just think that we get away with way too much, don't you ???
no, as a matter of fact, i don't.
given the time we get in our cartoon airplanes, the rl pilots would've found the same things.
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no, as a matter of fact, i don't.
given the time we get in our cartoon airplanes, the rl pilots would've found the same things.
so we are better in our virtual planes than say Thomas McGuire, was in his real one?
it is not more likely that our virtual situations are much easier than the real ones he faced?
i have heard this argument before and quite frankly it is probably the attitude that most deserves ...
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
and any other silly little funny faces intended to belittle other peoples statements when you have no real counter argument to make.
done with you and your idiocy sir ...
enjoy the video game ...
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yea i just think that we get away with way too much, don't you ?
are you ok?
you seem to laughing a lot at things that are not funny, or is that some kind of fear response to the thought of loosing your video game entitlement?
yea, i'm perfectly fine.
generally when i lose my cartoon airplane, it's from me pushing the limits too far. i find that fun, and amusing.
i also find you somewhat amusing, and entertaining. :D
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Nice expression that is probably appropriate somewhere... but it doesnt mean squat.
Let me explain it to you then.
I'd by far trust the words of the folks who designed, built, and tested (the treating Doctor) a plane before I'd trust in some authors (Doctor on the other side of the planet not treating patient) ideas of said plane.
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so we are better in our virtual planes than say Thomas McGuire, was in his real one?
it is not more likely that our virtual situations are much easier than the real ones he faced?
i have heard this argument before and quite frankly it is probably the attitude that most deserves ...
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
and any other silly little funny faces intended to belittle other peoples statements when you have no real counter argument to make.
done with you and your idiocy sir ...
enjoy the video game ...
they REALLY funny thing here, is that i(and others) have placed facts up here for you to absorb. and yet you think i'm the one that's an idiot? :rofl
and also, here you are using real live comparisons, whereas about 4 pages back, you're saying how these real life comparisons don't wash? sheesh!!
i have WAY too much respect for one of the greatest american aces to even begin to make the comparison you're trying to make.
you're not done here, as you're too thick to realize how wrong you really are. you refuse to left those silly little facts sink in. facts. proven. demonstrated.
you think you know much more than you really do....
it is fun trying to educate the likes of you though. :aok
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yea i just think that we get away with way too much, don't you ?
are you ok?
you seem to laughing a lot at things that are not funny, or is that some kind of fear response to the thought of loosing your video game entitlement?
He's laughing at you as most of us are.
Go ahead and rattle more it is entertaining.
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i understand the numbers. numbers cannot, and do not tke into account the many many variables in a fight though, as shown here.
now to figure out how the hell to link the film.
Cap1 thanks for the taking the time, to film it, and describe it in such detail. I will watch later. I'm at work now.
Also i would like to clear up one big mis-understanding...
I do realize that the 38 departs later and possibly not at all if flown correctly. But I'm talking about chasing a P38 at nearly similar speed in level flight and he pulls vertical and I pull up after him. In the initial part of the manuever, well before the onset of stall for either plane, the P-38 seems to extend away as though it were losing speed slower. There are only two explanation for this (and please don't restart the incorrect energy discussion again).
1. I'm pulling harder than the 38 in the initial pitch up maneuver and bleeding off more speed than the 38
2. I'm mis-judging the distance I am behind the 38, and while I initially close the gap, I do not get close enough for kill before we enter the stall region where the 38 departs later and hence does extend away (or more correctly I fall away from the 38)
3. P-38 are the Agent Smith of the Aces High Matrix.
I strongly suspect 1. and 2. are the real answers. But nagging at me is that so many in the MA seem to screw the pooch the same way I do when chasing 38 pilots. VonMessa had a theory the the size of 38 makes chasing pilots mis-judge there distance and speed, which combined with their better departure characteristics in the stall region provide the entire explanation.
I can learn a lot from watching it done correctly and incorrectly on film, instead of padding Lazerr's stats by figuring it out the hard way in the MA. :D
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is that some kind of fear response to the thought of loosing your video game entitlement?
He's laughing at you as most of us are.
Go ahead and rattle more it is entertaining.
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Hey Vink have you tried flying the 38 yet? The suggestion earlier for you to try the 38J was probably a good idea. Try the level with wep and the climb. See how stable it is at slow speeds. You might note something you won't see in the films. <S>
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Vink, check your PM's.
Hope they explain the 38 a bit more to ya. :aok
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Cap1 thanks for the taking the time, to film it, and describe it in such detail. I will watch later. I'm at work now.
Also i would like to clear up one big mis-understanding...
I do realize that the 38 departs later and possibly not at all if flown correctly. But I'm talking about chasing a P38 at nearly similar speed in level flight and he pulls vertical and I pull up after him. In the initial part of the manuever, well before the onset of stall for either plane, the P-38 seems to extend away as though it were losing speed slower. There are only two explanation for this (and please don't restart the incorrect energy discussion again).
1. I'm pulling harder than the 38 in the initial pitch up maneuver and bleeding off more speed than the 38
2. I'm mis-judging the distance I am behind the 38, and while I initially close the gap, I do not get close enough for kill before we enter the stall region where the 38 departs later and hence does extend away (or more correctly I fall away from the 38)
3. P-38 are the Agent Smith of the Aces High Matrix.
I strongly suspect 1. and 2. are the real answers. But nagging at me is that so many in the MA seem to screw the pooch the same way I do when chasing 38 pilots. VonMessa had a theory the the size of 38 makes chasing pilots mis-judge there distance and speed, which combined with their better departure characteristics in the stall region provide the entire explanation.
I can learn a lot from watching it done correctly and incorrectly on film, instead of padding Lazerr's stats by figuring it out the hard way in the MA. :D
THE 2 BEST THINGS TO DO to learn what's happening, is to film all of your fights. you can watch the fight from the other pile-its view too. you can also see all aircraft speeds in the sidebar, and watch how they compare.
the other thing, is to fly her. get a feel for her. you might not wanna go back to those kiddie planes. :D :noid that have only one engine.
seriously though....i hope that my film does more than bore the crap outta ya, as it's not a knock down dirty dogfight.
remember.,.....watch from the zeek's view, as well as mine, and you'll see a lot of what happens there.
:aok
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Is there a big difference between the P-38L and the 38J? I see many that prefer the J. I will fly the 38 mostly carrying ord in attack mode, not confident in it for a dog fight. :(
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Is there a big difference between the P-38L and the 38J? I see many that prefer the J. I will fly the 38 mostly carrying ord in attack mode, not confident in it for a dog fight. :(
i've not flown the "L" in combat. i'm told it's pretty much the same as the "J", except tht higher speeds, it has a better roll rate, thanks to hydraulically boosted ailerons, and of course it has the <dare i say it?> dive recovery flaps, to assist you should you get yourself into compression.
cap likes his 38J, and has been learning, that although it is less powerful, the 38G can be deadly in turnfights. :aok
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Hey Vink have you tried flying the 38 yet? The suggestion earlier for you to try the 38J was probably a good idea. Try the level with wep and the climb. See how stable it is at slow speeds. You might note something you won't see in the films. <S>
Roger Shuffler I do need to spend more time in this plane. It really seems like has many more dimensions to it than the single engine fighters. I ust need to mentally get ready to flop around like fool for a while until I figure it out. So hard to go backwards ;)
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L rolls better at low and high speeds than the J which helps tremendously. A lot of the guys who use the L as purely for attack sorties are highly underestimating the ability of the aircraft in air to air engagements. She's just like the J except she rolls much better and that makes the difference in a dogfight.
I fly the L exclusively since I'm a former 190 stick and utilizing the roll rate to out maneuver bandits was a must since you couldn't use pure turning maneuvers.
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Vink, check your PM's.
Hope they explain the 38 a bit more to ya. :aok
roger Talon will do.
Thanks :salute
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I do realize that the 38 departs later and possibly not at all if flown correctly. But I'm talking about chasing a P38 at nearly similar speed in level flight and he pulls vertical and I pull up after him.
If these conditions are true, you will catch him.
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Vinkman if you want to join me in the TA sometime we can compare the P-38 with assorted aircraft for zoom and stall performance.
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Roger Shuffler I do need to spend more time in this plane. It really seems like has many more dimensions to it than the single engine fighters. I ust need to mentally get ready to flop around like fool for a while until I figure it out. So hard to go backwards ;)
They are free...... flop around all you want :)
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Is this 38 dweeb thread done yet? :D
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Is this 38 dweeb thread done yet? :D
Now now, dont be hatin on us B38 dweebs... We are innocent I swear! With extra parts to spare... :devil
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Problems handling a P38? huh?
Just imagine you are in a two engined spitfire :rock
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Problems handling a P38? huh?
Just imagine you are in a two engined spitfire :rock
real men only need 1 engine :aok
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real men only need 1 engine :aok
Real men need 2 of everything. Beer, feet, jugs...
:devil
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Problems handling a P38? huh?
Just imagine you are in a two engined spitfire :rock
if i could make my 38 o doom handle like a spit................. :O
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real men only need 1 engine :aok
no......two engines are for men. one engine is for little girls and boys. :noid :aok :D
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Real men need 2 of everything. Beer, feet, jugs...
:devil
Not to mention two nuts... :noid
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Vinkman if you want to join me in the TA sometime we can compare the P-38 with assorted aircraft for zoom and stall performance.
Love to. I'll send you a note and we can pick a good night and time. Thanks. :aok
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Love to. I'll send you a note and we can pick a good night and time. Thanks. :aok
how bout yas do that in the mw arena.......and i'll follow behind in me 38 o doom. i promise i won't shoot. honest. :noid :D
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...I'm asking for the film...
I posted a film for you on page 10 if you missed it during the flap fetish. I think it might be kinda what your looking for.
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Cap1 thanks for the taking the time, to film it, and describe it in such detail. I will watch later. I'm at work now.
Also i would like to clear up one big mis-understanding...
I do realize that the 38 departs later and possibly not at all if flown correctly. But I'm talking about chasing a P38 at nearly similar speed in level flight and he pulls vertical and I pull up after him. In the initial part of the manuever, well before the onset of stall for either plane, the P-38 seems to extend away as though it were losing speed slower. There are only two explanation for this (and please don't restart the incorrect energy discussion again).
What is happening is you're in a plane that burns energy faster than the P-38 in the vertical, coupled with the probability you're also pulling too many G's as you pull up into your dive and I wouldn't be surprised if you're also moving your plane as you zoom up as well. There is no magic trick.
ack-ack
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I posted a film for you on page 10 if you missed it during the flap fetish. I think it might be kinda what your looking for.
Roger Cactus, thanks I'll check it out. :aok
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P-38 Pilots do it with twins....
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Is there a big difference between the P-38L and the 38J? I see many that prefer the J. I will fly the 38 mostly carrying ord in attack mode, not confident in it for a dog fight. :(
The only difference are the boosted ailerons and dive flaps. The boosted ailersons help with the roll at higher speeds but other than that, no real difference between the two. Can't speak why others fly the J, but for me it's not because it's 'what the experten P-38 drivers fly' but rather something as simple as that is what the real life pilots of the 479th FG flew.
ack-ack
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Is this 38 dweeb thread done yet? :D
Ahh...are we not paying attention to the little attention potato?
ack-ack
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Let me explain it to you then.
I'd by far trust the words of the folks who designed, built, and tested (the treating Doctor) a plane before I'd trust in some authors (Doctor on the other side of the planet not treating patient) ideas of said plane.
You would be making a HUGE (and very ignorant - sorry to have to say it) mistake in this case. Johnson and his group were working on an aircraft that suffered from a problem that would not be realized until 1947 (aeroelasticity) by a man named Arthur Collar. In this case (that you are attempting to besmear) you are ignoring the fact that Phillips has instructed aeronautical engineers for some 30 years and the text I cited is the standard post-fundamentals text that not only explains phenomenon in detail but exhaustively researches the fundamentals behind aircraft performance and then derives all of the supporting equations from the ground up. Phillips also defines formulas to be used in the creation of flight simulators and I feel confident that many of them are used in AHII.
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Duel throttles will not give someone an edge in the P-38, in other words, you will not win the fight because of duel throttles. It does not 'increase' the maneuverability of the P-38 and is only useful in a few situations like pulling off really nice looking hammerheads, help recover in certain spin situations and it increases the immersion factor and that's pretty much it.
ack-ack
ack-ack there has to be more of an advantage in have duel throttles during a dog fight, then just a good looking hammerhead?
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I really feel like this explains a lot in and of itself, remember that the P-38 has fowler flaps.
Flaps-per-se
(http://www.cheffers.co.uk/flaps1.GIF)
That is an interesting picture. On most flap designs, it attributes them a nose-down pitching moment when deployed. In AH though, flap deployment causes a considerable nose-up pitching moment.
Seems strange. Am I missing something?
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ack-ack there has to be more of an advantage in have duel throttles during a dog fight, then just a good looking hammerhead?
There isn't.
ack-ack
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There isn't.
ack-ack
QFT
I have a deul throttle.
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What is happening is you're in a plane that burns energy faster than the P-38 in the vertical, coupled with the probability you're also pulling too many G's as you pull up into your dive and I wouldn't be surprised if you're also moving your plane as you zoom up as well. There is no magic trick.
ack-ack
and you just nailed part of it.
in the film i posted, the zeek, at one point, does pull sharply, generating a LOT of extra drag.
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P-38 Pilots do it with twins....
double your pleasure, double your fun..... :noid :rofl :D
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if i could make my 38 o doom handle like a spit................. :O
Fly the 38G. It's a twin engined Spit :)
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You would be making a HUGE (and very ignorant - sorry to have to say it) mistake in this case. Johnson and his group were working on an aircraft that suffered from a problem that would not be realized until 1947 (aeroelasticity) by a man named Arthur Collar. In this case (that you are attempting to besmear) you are ignoring the fact that Phillips has instructed aeronautical engineers for some 30 years and the text I cited is the standard post-fundamentals text that not only explains phenomenon in detail but exhaustively researches the fundamentals behind aircraft performance and then derives all of the supporting equations from the ground up. Phillips also defines formulas to be used in the creation of flight simulators and I feel confident that many of them are used in AHII.
Are you claiming that the Lockheed crew did not know that the fuselage (tail booms) on the P-38 were flexing, and deflecting during compression?
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actually, i believe all aircraft flex during all phases of flight? much like your car flexes as you drive it down the road?
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in.
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deep
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poo?
In deep poo??? AM I right???
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Late to come into this - read the first 10 pages.
AKAK has got it right - 38 drivers kill in the simplest ways possible - nothing fancy b/c its not necessary.
I'm equally successful in the 38J and 47N. I like the J a bit more, simply because its got the best skins. I at times regret shooting other guys down b/c I want them to admire what skin i'm wearing. So, you get in close - and in this case below it was 2 snakes duking it out. In the end, all pilots are brothers.
Live well gents.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6oWvAGmiCo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6oWvAGmiCo)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/Snake38fighthighqualitycopy.jpg)
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Late to come into this - read the first 10 pages.
AKAK has got it right - 38 drivers kill in the simplest ways possible - nothing fancy b/c its not necessary.
I'm equally successful in the 38J and 47N. I like the J a bit more, simply because its got the best skins. I at times regret shooting other guys down b/c I want them to admire what skin i'm wearing. So, you get in close - and in this case below it was 2 snakes duking it out. In the end, all pilots are brothers.
Live well gents.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6oWvAGmiCo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6oWvAGmiCo)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/Snake38fighthighqualitycopy.jpg)
I love that P-38 skin, from that front angle it looks like both snakes have a Cheshire's grin as you shoot up the 190.
ack-ack
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sweet pic wolfalfa
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sweet pic wolfalfa
JUDGING by the empty seat, it looks like the run90 pile-it ran away. :D :noid
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Cap1 thanks for the taking the time, to film it, and describe it in such detail. I will watch later. I'm at work now.
Also i would like to clear up one big mis-understanding...
I do realize that the 38 departs later and possibly not at all if flown correctly. But I'm talking about chasing a P38 at nearly similar speed in level flight and he pulls vertical and I pull up after him. In the initial part of the manuever, well before the onset of stall for either plane, the P-38 seems to extend away as though it were losing speed slower. There are only two explanation for this (and please don't restart the incorrect energy discussion again).
1. I'm pulling harder than the 38 in the initial pitch up maneuver and bleeding off more speed than the 38
2. I'm mis-judging the distance I am behind the 38, and while I initially close the gap, I do not get close enough for kill before we enter the stall region where the 38 departs later and hence does extend away (or more correctly I fall away from the 38)
3. P-38 are the Agent Smith of the Aces High Matrix.
I strongly suspect 1. and 2. are the real answers. But nagging at me is that so many in the MA seem to screw the pooch the same way I do when chasing 38 pilots. VonMessa had a theory the the size of 38 makes chasing pilots mis-judge there distance and speed, which combined with their better departure characteristics in the stall region provide the entire explanation.
I can learn a lot from watching it done correctly and incorrectly on film, instead of padding Lazerr's stats by figuring it out the hard way in the MA. :D
were you able to see what we've been talking about in my gut-wrenchingly exciting film?
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Are you claiming that the Lockheed crew did not know that the fuselage (tail booms) on the P-38 were flexing, and deflecting during compression?
Thats not what I said at all and certainly not what I meant. I will make it clear though... Kelly Johnson and every other engineer in the world at that time thought that the speed of sound was a wall and there never would be a way past it.
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Ahh...are we not paying attention to the little attention potato?
ack-ack
Ahhhhh....., AKAK thinks hes a good stick or something :t
:noid
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It might help a lot of 'talented heroes' if they got off the computer chair and walked into the living room and told their mothers about their latest 'combat feat' and asked for a medal... because thats the only chance they got. :D
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Ahhhhh....., AKAK thinks hes a good stick or something :t
:noid
/yawn
Is the little boy still upset he's not getting the attention he craves so much? Maybe mommy will give you a hug and make it all better.
ack-ack
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well.....the only thing that this has to do with this thread is that it's a p38. a special one though. it's Lefty Gardners White Lightning, before redbull got their hands on it.
beautiful flying in a beautiful aircraft, by a super talented pilot.
http://p38whitelightnin.com/gallery/
the bottom of the page, there is two links. you can either download the video, or play it right from there.
watch and enjoy. :aok
:salute to Lefty
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/yawn
Is the little boy still upset he's not getting the attention he craves so much? Maybe mommy will give you a hug and make it all better.
ack-ack
Mommy cant give me a hug from MD to Korea ;) maybe your mom didnt hug you enough when you were young and now its effected your ability to see sarcasm :aok
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were you able to see what we've been talking about in my gut-wrenchingly exciting film?
Cap1 my appologies, I did not get to watch the film yet, but I should have time this evening.
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Hits vinkman over the head with the empty dvd box..... ok where did you put the cap1 movie.....
:P
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Hits vinkman over the head with the empty dvd box..... ok where did you put the cap1 movie.....
:P
in the supermegamightyagonizinglyexc itinglyinteresting stack? :rofl :O
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in the supermegamightyagonizinglyexcitinglyinteresting stack? :rofl :O
:x it's in the corner
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:x it's in the corner
:rofl :noid :aok
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Thats not what I said at all and certainly not what I meant. I will make it clear though... Kelly Johnson and every other engineer in the world at that time thought that the speed of sound was a wall and there never would be a way past it.
Uh, could you find me a quote from Kelly Johnson stating that? I've read all sorts of stuff on that subject, and never read that Johnson considered the speed of sound to be an impenetrable barrier. He certainly makes no mention of it with regards to the P-38 and compression. As early as 1936/1937, he made notes of the problems of compression, before any plane had experienced it. But nothing about the speed of sound and never being able to exceed it. Besides, he knew the P-38 would never approach the speed of sound.
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Uh, could you find me a quote from Kelly Johnson stating that? I've read all sorts of stuff on that subject, and never read that Johnson considered the speed of sound to be an impenetrable barrier. He certainly makes no mention of it with regards to the P-38 and compression. As early as 1936/1937, he made notes of the problems of compression, before any plane had experienced it. But nothing about the speed of sound and never being able to exceed it. Besides, he knew the P-38 would never approach the speed of sound.
i actually just found this very interesting read.
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4219/Chapter3.html
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Uh, could you find me a quote from Kelly Johnson stating that? I've read all sorts of stuff on that subject, and never read that Johnson considered the speed of sound to be an impenetrable barrier. He certainly makes no mention of it with regards to the P-38 and compression. As early as 1936/1937, he made notes of the problems of compression, before any plane had experienced it. But nothing about the speed of sound and never being able to exceed it. Besides, he knew the P-38 would never approach the speed of sound.
He said that about compressibility actually (and AFTER the sound barrier had already been broken which says something). I believe the interview was with Pamela Reynolds-Wood for her book "P-38 Lightning" but I cannot find a referencing citation to it online.
“ I broke an ulcer over compressibility on the P-38 because we flew into a speed range where no one had ever been before, and we had difficulty convincing people that it wasn't the funny-looking airplane itself, but a fundamental physical problem. We found out what happened when the Lightning shed its tail and we worked during the whole war to get 15 more knots [28 km/h] of speed out of the P-38. We saw compressibility as a brick wall for a long time. Then we learned how to get through it. ”
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This thread is going to rack up more total views than the rules thread :noid
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Rules thread?
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well, we're catching up to the corvette/porsche thread. :D
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He said that about compressibility actually (and AFTER the sound barrier had already been broken which says something). I believe the interview was with Pamela Reynolds-Wood for her book "P-38 Lightning" but I cannot find a referencing citation to it online.
Compressability was a brick wall the P-38 never really got through, because of the wing design. Had they used a different wing profile, they'd wouldn't have run into the problem, at least not until over 500MPH or so. They made the P-38 go faster without entering compression, a couple of times. But it never got past the point where compression was not an issue. Levier said the dive flaps were good to 0.75 Mach, a boost of about 0.07 Mach, as without them, compression happened at 0.67 Mach, where in 1937, Johnson had said it would happen at 0.65 Mach. But the wing of the P-38 was always the problem, and where it joined the fuselage made it worse. Had they been able to use a thinner and sleeker wing, compression might not have happened until 0.70 Mach or more. But the P-38 would not have been as maneuverable, nor would it have climbed as well, and the range on internal fuel would have been very short, like the Spitfire.
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i actually just found this very interesting read.
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4219/Chapter3.html
Per this account, everyone might have been a bit correct. What's clear is that the 38 was designed with laminar non-compressible flow in mind. In the compressible region, both the aerodynamic flow AND the aerodynimic pressures (hence forces) on the plane were not properly calculated.
The only thing not clearly explained (by this article) was why the controls became 'locked' which I assume meant that the stick and evelators couldn't be moved.
Speculation on my part could be the at the shock Normal created by the airfoil settled on the elevator and created and the high pressures which created a force that the pilot could not overcome. OR that the booms and tail section of the plane deflected enough under these (higher than calculated) forces so that the bearing loads, gaps, or other clearances necessary for smooth operation of cable, rod, and hinge mechanisms closed up resulting in the controlls locking up.
Perhaps the controls lock up is related to the aero elastic study quoted, and "tuck under" and dive [brakes] issues were related to the compressibilty as also stated. Also it could be that the aero elastic deflections calculated in later years where compressible loading could be properly calculated SUPLIMENT the P-38 explanations of the 1930s not contradict them.
With respect to quoting Kelly Johnson or others that worked on the program at the time, remember that these are snapshots in time. Often time engineers will propose a theory and come up with a fix. If the fix works, the theory is excepted. But in cases like this one, where compressible Aerodynamics were not understood and could not be calculated for the many different parts of the airplane, the theory of what was wrong, put forth by the engineers (Johnson included),may have been incomplete. If the Aeroeastic deflection was caused by the changes in loading do to the changes in flow dynamics in the compressible region than fixing the flow dynamics with the dive [brake] may have solved both issues without the P-38 team ever knowing the second one was part of the explanation. Suplimantal explanations could be developed years or even decades later as modeling and analysis techniques improved.
Summary: Because all these problems were occuring at the same time, under the same conditions, they may all be correct but should not singularly be described as "the" compessibility problem.
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in the supermegamightyagonizinglyexc itinglyinteresting stack? :rofl :O
Cap1
OK I got to watch it and that's it exactly! The Zeek looks to be a bit further back than I usually am, but he's at roughly equal speed when you go up and he follows. It appears he makes the mistake, I think I make quite a bit. He tries to pull lead in the early part of the vertical move in order get a gun solution. Indeed he is firing on the way up and it's a high deflection shot with you below his cowl and out of sight. This causes his initial turn radius (albiet vertical turn) to be much tighter than yours and he slows too quickly trying to ge the shot. Instead of achieving the same height as you, he stalls out several hundred feet below you. You were 1500 yards ahead when you initiated the move so you may have had enough room for a reversal before he was co alt, but if he didn't screw up, you both should have ended up head to head. Instead you ended up head to tail.
Thanks for recording and posting. Good stuff. :aok
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Cap1
OK I got to watch it and that's it exactly! The Zeek looks to be a bit further back than I usually am, but he's at roughly equal speed when you go up and he follows. It appears he makes the mistake, I think I make quite a bit. He tries to pull lead in the early part of the vertical move in order get a gun solution. Indeed he is firing on the way up and it's a high deflection shot with you below his cowl and out of sight. This causes his initial turn radius (albiet vertical turn) to be much tighter than yours and he slows too quickly trying to ge the shot. Instead of achieving the same height as you, he stalls out several hundred feet below you. You were 1500 yards ahead when you initiated the move so you may have had enough room for a reversal before he was co alt, but if he didn't screw up, you both should have ended up head to head. Instead you ended up head to tail.
Thanks for recording and posting. Good stuff. :aok
you're right. had he continued a lag pursuit(i think), and not tried for those shots, he could've probably continued till i made another mistake, and ended the fight differently.
if you watch the speeds in the par on the right, you'll see that when he pulls sharply, his speed drops FAST. that was usually his mistake.
i think you're right, that i too, could've reversed sooner than i did, but i wasn't too sure of what i was doing, so i was holding the climb, till i knew for sure he was stalled. i also felt that had i reversed back down earlier, i may have set up for a ho, and i do all i can to avoid giving the other guy that chance, and i try to avoid em myself too.
for the record, the guy in the zeek, was a good guy to fight. stubborn too. and i mean stubborn in a good way.
glad that helped ya.
<<S>>
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:x it's in the corner
I don't see it ;)
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P-38s are flown by :banana: who fly in herds of other friendlies or in the atmosphere where they are less likely to get shot down. you do not ever see any p-38 woosbags up at a capped field, they nothing but scaredy cat pilots who fly in flocks of dumb birds :x
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P-38s are flown by :banana: who fly in herds of other friendlies or in the atmosphere where they are less likely to get shot down. you do not ever see any p-38 woosbags up at a capped field, they nothing but scaredy cat pilots who fly in flocks of dumb birds :x
oh the hypocrisy
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P-38s are flown by :banana: who fly in herds of other friendlies or in the atmosphere where they are less likely to get shot down. you do not ever see any p-38 woosbags up at a capped field, they nothing but scaredy cat pilots who fly in flocks of dumb birds :x
funny....the flocks of "dumb birds" i fly in are usually the flocks above me trying to kill me. :airplane: :joystick: :neener:
although, i went up hi the other night, and had a fight with rv6flyer......we started around 18k. it was 38j vs 38j. i have to admit.....the 38 is significantly different up there. rv is a good pile-it. it was a fun fight, and a decent learning experience. :aok
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I up at capped fields in my 38. Come down and see me some time. I'm usually on the deck or close to it.
Is your name greens in game? Maybe we can have some fun fights in the main or one of the other arenas. I'll bring my 38 and you fly what you want to fly. You can start 4 or 5K and I'll be on the deck. Should be fun. No chest thumping or anything..... call it an experiment. :)
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I hereby request that TnDep be banned for life from the ENTIRE INTARDNET for starting this thread up again. :D
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I hereby request that TnDep be banned for life from the ENTIRE INTARDNET for starting this thread up again. :D
:bolt: :banana: :noid :rofl
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P-38s are flown by :banana: who fly in herds of other friendlies or in the atmosphere where they are less likely to get shot down. you do not ever see any p-38 woosbags up at a capped field, they nothing but scaredy cat pilots who fly in flocks of dumb birds :x
LOL. Yep that's me in my 38G. High alt in a horde. :aok
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LOL. Yep that's me in my 38G. High alt in a horde. :aok
you've been above 3k?
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I hereby request that TnDep be banned for life from the ENTIRE INTARDNET for starting this thread up again. :D
I second that. Quit digging up this dinosaur.
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P-38s are flown by :banana: who fly in herds of other friendlies or in the atmosphere where they are less likely to get shot down. you do not ever see any p-38 woosbags up at a capped field, they nothing but scaredy cat pilots who fly in flocks of dumb birds :x
I don't know greens. I seen a lot of 38s getting into big battles. some are high and others are in the thick of the battle.
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:lol I know where that comment came from greens.
:lol
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Greens, thanks for the laugh.
I dont think this thread is lock material, YET... :(
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lol, i tend to find that the p38 is a game glitch, when im on a p38s arse he tends to wobble n stick stir to a ppoint where i can't get a dam ping on him especially you lazer :salute
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Eh, that's every plane in the game. Not sure what to do about it.
lol, i tend to find that the p38 is a game glitch, when im on a p38s arse he tends to wobble n stick stir to a ppoint where i can't get a dam ping on him especially you lazer :salute
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lol, i tend to find that the p38 is a game glitch, when im on a p38s arse he tends to wobble n stick stir to a ppoint where i can't get a dam ping on him especially you lazer :salute
surly you jest........ :joystick: :airplane: :headscratch:
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surly you jest........ :joystick: :airplane: :headscratch:
No he sounds serious... and quit calling him shirley.
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Ok, I admit it. the K/D of the 38 is "out of whack" because I changed the stats in the database....
Super Secret SAPP style...
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:rofl
Please.. my movements are planned out and smooth. Changing direction to give a smaller profile is what is being done to you. Call it a "stirr", if you want. I fly with a mouse which is a little different than using a joystick. Does that make you feel like your even more in the suck?
Let me grab a film for you, and you can use it for training purposes. Again.. sorry you aim sucks. ;)
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Yeah im a flopper...
http://www.mediafire.com/?qyn24yjjedt
http://www.mediafire.com/?2x3yymav3au
http://www.mediafire.com/?mqmmfm2v2hz
Maybe you have some time to give me some help?
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No he sounds serious... and quit calling him shirley.
:rofl
was hopinf someone would catch that. :aok
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You assume that plane attributes are the major factor.....
The reality is the caliber of pilots flying them makes a big difference. Its why you see the P-47D11 so high up there. The P-38J is a plane favored only by a select few, and flown extremely well. Your analysis is incorrect in assuming that k/d should resemble WW2 levels.
There isn't some bug, more like a statistical bump spurred on by good piloting.
Strip
i concur with strip
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Yeah im a flopper...
http://www.mediafire.com/?qyn24yjjedt
http://www.mediafire.com/?2x3yymav3au
http://www.mediafire.com/?mqmmfm2v2hz
Maybe you have some time to give me some help?
Quit flopping all over the place on the deck dodging B&Z'rs and killing them on overshoots. Exploiting a P38 AH bug is all you are good for! :furious
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P-38s are flown by :banana: who fly in herds of other friendlies or in the atmosphere where they are less likely to get shot down. you do not ever see any p-38 woosbags up at a capped field, they nothing but scaredy cat pilots who fly in flocks of dumb birds :x
oh really? I remember one time I upped a 38 at a capped base and killed all 5 of those goons in their 51s and typhs and other picktard planes. :devil
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Quit flopping all over the place on the deck dodging B&Z'rs and killing them on overshoots. Exploiting a P38 AH bug is all you are good for! :furious
Jeeeesss..i forgot I should be @ 30k cherry picking. I will never misfly the b38 again... ;)
Man I SUCK... :D
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Greens/Vinkman are extremely clueless. I even gave vinkman the benefit of the doubt and took him for a few in the DA... the beatdown was embarassing.. Im suprised your still lipping about the p38. Eventually, you should just man up to being outflown. ;)
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Jeeeesss..i forgot I should be @ 30k cherry picking. I will never misfly the b38 again... ;)
Man I SUCK... :D
actually, i posted a film in the sapp forum.....me fighting rvflyer....was a fun fight started around 20k or so. it is WAY different up there. :noid :bolt:
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I can handle myself at most altitudes... ;)
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I can handle myself at most altitudes... ;)
i can't......yet......... :bolt: :rofl :aok
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No worries I'll take up the P 38J and bring those K/Ds back down to normal.
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No worries I'll take up the P 38J and bring those K/Ds back down to normal.
:lol
Just do it with style..no lawndarting into a CV! :aok
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P-38s are flown by :banana: who fly in herds of other friendlies or in the atmosphere where they are less likely to get shot down. you do not ever see any p-38 woosbags up at a capped field, they nothing but scaredy cat pilots who fly in flocks of dumb birds :x
Obviously a Fangurl who has dived down from 20K in whatever BnZer he fancies on one too many lone 38's on the deck only to be disappointed by his own ineptness and be returned to the tower..
Poor girl... Perhaps changing your sanitary napkin and taking some Midol may soothe your pain..
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Greens/Vinkman are extremely clueless. I even gave vinkman the benefit of the doubt and took him for a few in the DA... the beatdown was embarassing.. Im suprised your still lipping about the p38. Eventually, you should just man up to being outflown. ;)
No arguments that you are better at cartoon flying than me. (but you will not be fore-ever)
2 zip is not quite a beat down. (I flew a P-39, you were in your lightning)
I do in fact have more than a clue.
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LOL this is dedicated to you haters <.......................loud wet rip noise...................>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :x
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Vink.. Actually you were in c205, all three of the fights. You came into the merge, guns blazing, never landed a hit, flew past to 3k, turned around, and repeated. You will actually never stand a chance, its VERY apparent you dont know what your doing.
I managed to film those fights, like the last three I posted. If you would like to have another look at them, let me know id be glad to post them after work.
Greens, I actually regret taking the time to respond to your stupid post, this will be the last time I make that mistake.
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not to you lazer your cool other ppl <S>
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Vink.. Actually you were in c205, all three of the fights. You came into the merge, guns blazing, never landed a hit, flew past to 3k, turned around, and repeated. You will actually never stand a chance, its VERY apparent you dont know what your doing.
I managed to film those fights, like the last three I posted. If you would like to have another look at them, let me know id be glad to post them after work.
Greens, I actually regret taking the time to respond to your stupid post, this will be the last time I make that mistake.
Could have been c205, I was flying them for a little while. I accept that correction. To imply I shot at you during the merge or first pass, is improbable since I am aware of and respectful fo the DA 'ettiquet',
To be clear I went to the DA to learn by fighting you, without the other worries of the furball. I didn't expect to win, and I didn't care if I lot, but I did expect that you would stay longer than you did. As soon you had enough filmed proof that you could plaster all over the boards you bailed and told me I was wasting your time. apparently I was. At the time I'd been flying AH for 4 months, you for 9 years.
Your constant berating of less experience players borders on clinical insecurity. You may want to try WWW.Dr.Phil.com
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Could have been c205, I was flying them for a little while. I accept that correction. To imply I shot at you during the merge or first pass, is improbable since I am aware of and respectful fo the DA 'ettiquet',
To be clear I went to the DA to learn by fighting you, without the other worries of the furball. I didn't expect to win, and I didn't care if I lot, but I did expect that you would stay longer than you did. As soon you had enough filmed proof that you could plaster all over the boards you bailed and told me I was wasting your time. apparently I was. At the time I'd been flying AH for 4 months, you for 9 years.
Your constant berating of less experience players borders on clinical insecurity. You may want to try WWW.Dr.Phil.com
:rofl :rofl :bolt:
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Dr. Phil The Rapist?
He's not even licensed. :rofl
Knew that guy was a loser from the get go.
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Could have been c205, I was flying them for a little while. I accept that correction. To imply I shot at you during the merge or first pass, is improbable since I am aware of and respectful fo the DA 'ettiquet',
To be clear I went to the DA to learn by fighting you, without the other worries of the furball. I didn't expect to win, and I didn't care if I lot, but I did expect that you would stay longer than you did. As soon you had enough filmed proof that you could plaster all over the boards you bailed and told me I was wasting your time. apparently I was. At the time I'd been flying AH for 4 months, you for 9 years.
Your constant berating of less experience players borders on clinical insecurity. You may want to try WWW.Dr.Phil.com
somehow, i think i may regret this.....but i'm gonna take a chance.
if you see me online.....my ingame id is in my sig below........but if you see me online, pm me. we'll fight. i'm not a good teacher, but if you're anything like me, you can and will learn from watching your films.
if i can offer advice, i will. we can do it in any of the arenas you want.
this isn't a challenge, or me being wise ass.......i'm seriously offering to try to help you out....as long as you're serious about learning the 38 o doom. :aok
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Might be a good time to keep your mouth closed then? ;)
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Might be a good time to keep your mouth closed then? ;)
nah.....people helped me. even when i acted like a schmuck sometimes.....so i'll give the dude the benifit of the doubt.....he gets one chance. :D
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Ill pass... him and a select few of his squadmates go out of their way to be rude and annoying to me. I really dont care to help someone that is taking blaring HO passes in the DA..l hosing from 1k out.. listening to the film is almost hilarious. And to top it off this guy spurtz crap in the arena, saying "all I know in the p38 is the hammerhead," which wasnt even being used.. lol
More power to ya I guess. Hard for me to deal with someone who takes the time you give them in the DA to maybe learn something, and he just spits in your virtual face. :huh
I help people in the game, but not that type. I've wasted my time there before!;)
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Your constant berating of less experience players borders on clinical insecurity. You may want to try WWW.Dr.Phil.com
This is an online game man... I have fun flying with against a lot of people in this game. Your just not my type.. sorry
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somehow, i think i may regret this.....but i'm gonna take a chance.
if you see me online.....my ingame id is in my sig below........but if you see me online, pm me. we'll fight. i'm not a good teacher, but if you're anything like me, you can and will learn from watching your films.
if i can offer advice, i will. we can do it in any of the arenas you want.
this isn't a challenge, or me being wise ass.......i'm seriously offering to try to help you out....as long as you're serious about learning the 38 o doom. :aok
Thanks Cap1, I will. :aok
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Dr. Phil The Rapist?
He's not even licensed. :rofl
Knew that guy was a loser from the get go.
Is Dr. Phil a rapist? :O Never heard that before.
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Ill pass... him and a select few of his squadmates go out of their way to be rude and annoying to me. I really dont care to help someone that is taking blaring HO passes in the DA..l hosing from 1k out.. listening to the film is almost hilarious. And to top it off this guy spurtz crap in the arena, saying "all I know in the p38 is the hammerhead," which wasnt even being used.. lol
More power to ya I guess. Hard for me to deal with someone who takes the time you give them in the DA to maybe learn something, and he just spits in your virtual face. :huh
I help people in the game, but not that type. I've wasted my time there before!;)
Listen, this could go on forever and I'm probably wasting my time but...
I have said nothing rude to you, on this board or in the arena. And I have tried to be very cordial despite your constant put downs and trash talking. (and that isn't easy). In all of these comments, I address YOU when I have something to say about you, But you take your trash talking to everyone else. If you want to pretend I've done something to convince you I'm a person of low character (like Ho-ing you, OMG!) then go ahead, but in my opinion, it's just weird the way to you try to ruin peoples reps on the BBs. It's just weird. ( See 'Muttley' post)
So in case there is any misunderstanding....I thanked you for going to the DA. I accepted the DA invite in place of a squaddie that wouldn't, because I thought he was a puss for talking crap and not going. I knew I was going to get my bellybutton beat, but I thought I'd learn something about flying against 38s which I was having a ton of trouble with at the time. I DID get my bellybutton beat. I think I even apologied for not giving you much of a challenge. If you have them, post the films. I maybe embarrassed about my sucky flying, but not ashamed of anything I said or did.
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The hammerhead doesn't need 2 throttles, in fact I think it works better without.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aIeejNkRbY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aIeejNkRbY)
I've tried it both ways, quite a bit, and full throttle on both engines is the way to go.
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The P38 had the highest K/D ratio among all USAAC planes, not to mention the top scoring US Aces of WW2 flew P38s.
Raptor of the hi pitched voice we all know that 38 dweebs recorded those high stats do to all the headons they used.
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38 powar.
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Two thoughts (as if it matters after this many pages, but...)
Stats mean nothing. There are no two more similar planes in the planeset than the F4U-1A and the F4U-1D, and if you go by the stats, the -1D is less than half as capable as the -1A. Niche planes - those limited in popularity enough to mostly be flown by affecianados of the aircraft always "seem" better than they are.
And... from what I've read the 38 has a very low coefficient of drag in RL - and the primary REASON that the aircraft needed dive flaps (and that SOP against earlier models was a dive away from if in trouble) was because it would accelerate into compression in th the dive faster than the aircraft it was engaged with. '
Stands to reason that as a result, it would zoom better than average as a result as well - especially coupled with the helicopter effect of twin engine counter rotating props.
<S>
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As the Chuck Yeager always said "its the man, not the machine."
So you have a bunch of pilots who are brilliant dogfighters are flying the P-38G. Get over yourself.
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Hehe this thread is long in the tooth.
I think vink already learned that the 38 is more than just a vertical bird.
Guess the new stats kind of reawakened this thread.
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As the Chuck Yeager always said "its the man, not the machine."
So you have a bunch of pilots who are brilliant dogfighters are flying the P-38G. Get over yourself.
:rofl :neener:
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The very simple reality is that certain planes reward exceptional piloting skills more then others. Not all in the same way obviously. The 38 was a tremendous lane IRL. Everyone talks about the P-51 over Berlin but the plane that got the buffs there 1st was the 38G. So when you read all about the "issues" the 38 had and the lack of respect the Germans gave it you need to put two facts in perspective. The G was the only plane for the mission at the time so it was put in a role it wasn't suited for and asked to do things no other plane in the world could do (even badly) at the time. It was also the test bed for all the technical issues that cropped up in flying long range high altitude combat escort. So the P-47's and p-51's that followed had significantly less issues. The G was still being flown in front line combat in late 43 and even into mid 1944 (I'm sure Guppy can give all the details). The J (and L) are late war and very optimized and performed very well.
As for AH no plane in the game is more pilot dependent IMO...less then average when flown by an average stick. Better then good when flown to its strengths and beyond uber when flown by a "38 ace" who knows and appreciates it's subtleties.
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The very simple reality is that certain planes reward exceptional piloting skills more then others. Not all in the same way obviously. The 38 was a tremendous lane IRL. Everyone talks about the P-51 over Berlin but the plane that got the buffs there 1st was the 38G. So when you read all about the "issues" the 38 had and the lack of respect the Germans gave it you need to put two facts in perspective. The G was the only plane for the mission at the time so it was put in a role it wasn't suited for and asked to do things no other plane in the world could do (even badly) at the time. It was also the test bed for all the technical issues that cropped up in flying long range high altitude combat escort. So the P-47's and p-51's that followed had significantly less issues. The G was still being flown in front line combat in late 43 and even into mid 1944 (I'm sure Guppy can give all the details). The J (and L) are late war and very optimized and performed very well.
As for AH no plane in the game is more pilot dependent IMO...less then average when flown by an average stick. Better then good when flown to its strengths and beyond uber when flown by a "38 ace" who knows and appreciates it's subtleties.
I watch the Stats for 38 go up and down. I have a new theory that most foks don't like this plane, so it it mostly flown by it's loyal and expert fans in the game. Since most of the sorties are disctributed to veteran pilots, that stats go up. Then people see the high stats and think it's a great plane and they'll be just as good if they fly it. The number of sorties goes up, only now they are distributed among lesser quality pilots and numbers drop off. Disillusioned with the plane, the number of sorties drops off again and the stats go back up.
so if all the SAPP guys and other p-38 loyalists swithed over to P-39, the P-39 K/D would jump to 4:1 and many would think the 39 model had been changed improperly to suddenly give it an advantage. No one flies the P-39 so it's numbers would change quickly.
Hey SAPP guys, why not try it and see if in a month, a bunch of threads pop up asking if the p-39 model was hacked. ;)
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I watch the Stats for 38 go up and down. I have a new theory that most foks don't like this plane, so it it mostly flown by it's loyal and expert fans in the game. Since most of the sorties are disctributed to veteran pilots, that stats go up. Then people see the high stats and think it's a great plane and they'll be just as good if they fly it. The number of sorties goes up, only now they are distributed among lesser quality pilots and numbers drop off. Disillusioned with the plane, the number of sorties drops off again and the stats go back up.
so if all the SAPP guys and other p-38 loyalists swithed over to P-39, the P-39 K/D would jump to 4:1 and many would think the 39 model had been changed improperly to suddenly give it an advantage. No one flies the P-39 so it's numbers would change quickly.
Hey SAPP guys, why not try it and see if in a month, a bunch of threads pop up asking if the p-39 model was hacked. ;)
the only thing i can hit in a p-39 is the ground.
with my p-39.
i'll stick to my ole p-38 o doom. :aok
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lol.. f4u1a being more capable than a 1d? Yeah right. It can run faster is about all, its owned in all other aspects.
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snip
...so if all the SAPP guys and other p-38 loyalists swithed over to P-39...
No room for a blender in the 39 cockpit. Ain't gonna happen.
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lol.. f4u1a being more capable than a 1d?
The main reason why the F4U-D is getting killed much more is that both planes are mostly used in totally different roles:
The -1a as a fighter
The -D as a bomb truck, which may fight after dropping it's ords... but most of the time, it's dead by then.
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Doh! Didn't realize that Silat had brought a 2 month old thread back up from the dead....
Lusche, I realize that - I was just pointing out the fallacy of depending (solely) upon the stats to evaluate relative performance of aircraft, which is how this thread started out.
<S>
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I prefer 1a over 1d. I'm not sure why that is. Maybe the wing tanks.
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I love fighting 1D's in the MA, mainly because they are either loaded with bombs, have fuel to fly them 20 sectors, or both. :)
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Doh! Didn't realize that Silat had brought a 2 month old thread back up from the dead....
Lusche, I realize that - I was just pointing out the fallacy of depending (solely) upon the stats to evaluate relative performance of aircraft, which is how this thread started out.
<S>
I think when I started the thread I state that one of the assumptions is that with thousands on line, that one would surmise that the pilot talent was uniformly distributed among the various plane types. If that assumption were true, then the stats would suggest differences in plane type score could be attributed to the plane. In monitoring the numbers over time, I think the conclusion is that pilot skill is not always distributed uniformly over the various planes when weighted by sorties flown. So the assumption doesn't hold. Thus, plane scores are more often driven by who fly's them and how they choose to fly them.
In a game with so many players I found that surprising. But as I began to watch the scores and gain more MA time, you realise that the sorties are not close to being evenly distributed among the players. Lusche could tell you but I would bet 50% of sorties are flown by 10% of the players, and 80% by 20%, and so on. So the habits of veterans frequent fliers are dominating the stats making it very difficult to draw conclusions about planes from the data.
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I love fighting 1D's in the MA, mainly because they are either loaded with bombs, have fuel to fly them 20 sectors, or both. :)
THERE'S only a few people that fly any of the corsairs in mw......and i hate/love flying against em.
they sometimes are carrying ords....but if they are, and get into a scrap, they never hesitate to get rid of them. they also know how to fly em, and they tend to work in pairs, making them much harder(for me anyway) to deal with.
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To be honest when I found the 38 in game, I liked the G...no real rhyme or reason, just flew it more...then went to the L, ended up getting a few more kills here and there...flew the L in DGS, but after that I tried the J out...and for some reason it just felt more like home to me, even though it's pretty much identical to the L (except for the ailerons and what not). I always hop in a J on most sorties now (when I don't feel like flying a 234 hehe). I just seem to fly better.
Cap,
I think Corsairs are generally hard to deal with even in a 1v1, depending on the plane I'm in, it's hard to judge how much E he has, how much I have, knowing I probably can't turn with him...pretty much pray for a miracle.
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I think when I started the thread I state that one of the assumptions is that with thousands on line, that one would surmise that the pilot talent was uniformly distributed among the various plane types. If that assumption were true, then the stats would suggest differences in plane type score could be attributed to the plane. In monitoring the numbers over time, I think the conclusion is that pilot skill is not always distributed uniformly over the various planes when weighted by sorties flown. So the assumption doesn't hold. Thus, plane scores are more often driven by who fly's them and how they choose to fly them.
In a game with so many players I found that surprising. But as I began to watch the scores and gain more MA time, you realise that the sorties are not close to being evenly distributed among the players. Lusche could tell you but I would bet 50% of sorties are flown by 10% of the players, and 80% by 20%, and so on. So the habits of veterans frequent fliers are dominating the stats making it very difficult to draw conclusions about planes from the data.
Nice post. There aren't nearly enough people who play this game to cause even skill distribution over every plane in the set. You'd probably need another 50k players for that to happen.
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To be honest when I found the 38 in game, I liked the G...no real rhyme or reason, just flew it more...then went to the L, ended up getting a few more kills here and there...flew the L in DGS, but after that I tried the J out...and for some reason it just felt more like home to me, even though it's pretty much identical to the L (except for the ailerons and what not). I always hop in a J on most sorties now (when I don't feel like flying a 234 hehe). I just seem to fly better.
Cap,
I think Corsairs are generally hard to deal with even in a 1v1, depending on the plane I'm in, it's hard to judge how much E he has, how much I have, knowing I probably can't turn with him...pretty much pray for a miracle.
I THINK you're right. they can easily out turn the 38, if they're flown well, and they can prevent the 38 driver from extending too far, or running.
they also seem to be easily able to match any vertical move that the 38 can do. i've made the mistake more than once, where i'd go up, expecting to see him fall off like most spits would, but instead, he's there shooting my 38 o doom.
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i hate the 38 it has nothing to offer its merely a slow target drone
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i hate the 38 it has nothing to offer its merely a slow target drone
Turdy8 is UBER, it is the "spit16" of the varsity squad! :aok :bolt:
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I THINK you're right. they can easily out turn the 38, if they're flown well, and they can prevent the 38 driver from extending too far, or running.
they also seem to be easily able to match any vertical move that the 38 can do. i've made the mistake more than once, where i'd go up, expecting to see him fall off like most spits would, but instead, he's there shooting my 38 o doom.
the only reason they are catching you in the vertical is because you are misjudging their energy state and think it's lower than it really is.
ack-ack
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38 = trainer.
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the only reason they are catching you in the vertical is because you are misjudging their energy state and think it's lower than it really is.
ack-ack
they're not catching me as i zoom bck up. they're catching me.....or rather hanging in there when i try to use the vertical as i would against a spit or zeek in a fight.
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they're not catching me as i zoom bck up. they're catching me.....or rather hanging in there when i try to use the vertical as i would against a spit or zeek in a fight.
:huh
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they're not catching me as i zoom bck up. they're catching me.....or rather hanging in there when i try to use the vertical as i would against a spit or zeek in a fight.
If they're hanging below you within guns range, you underestimated their energy state and not because they have some uber vertical properties.
ack-ack
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If they're hanging below you within guns range, you underestimated their energy state and not because they have some uber vertical properties.
ack-ack
From 400mph and one the deck, every plane I've tested zooms between 6-7K before departing. Including P-38s.
Starting speed, rather than plane type or any performance metric, seems to be the dominant factor in zoom climbs.
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From 400mph and one the deck, every plane I've tested zooms between 6-7K before departing. Including P-38s.
Starting speed, rather than plane type or any performance metric, seems to be the dominant factor in zoom climbs.
but again, i wasn't talking about doing a zoom climb.
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but again, i wasn't talking about doing a zoom climb.
Cap next time you see me on.... we'll work on this. :salute
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In a closely matched vertical fight that "hammerhead" can be all the difference in the world, and if perfected will matter immensley there-bye possibly making dual throttle control a GREAT advantage IMO :aok
True, but ... the ability to hang on it's props means the 38 doesn't actually have to do a proper hammer head to pull off the same naeuver. It can nose over either forwards or backwards in kind of a pancake flip manuever and accomplish the same thing without going sideways.
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True, but ... the ability to hang on it's props means the 38 doesn't actually have to do a proper hammer head to pull off the same naeuver. It can nose over either forwards or backwards in kind of a pancake flip manuever and accomplish the same thing without going sideways.
But dual throttle work is so much more fun!
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I run dual throttles with my X52, (for twin engine planes of course) its seems to really bring it around alot faster in flat turns. just remember to throttle back up on the engine you cut back. i just programmed the Slide on my throttle stick as my second throttle.
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I run dual throttles with my X52, (for twin engine planes of course) its seems to really bring it around alot faster in flat turns. just remember to throttle back up on the engine you cut back. i just programmed the Slide on my throttle stick as my second throttle.
I tried this a while back. Too much work for me
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I run dual throttles with my X52, (for twin engine planes of course) its seems to really bring it around alot faster in flat turns. just remember to throttle back up on the engine you cut back. i just programmed the Slide on my throttle stick as my second throttle.
It doesn't
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I run dual throttles with my X52, (for twin engine planes of course) its seems to really bring it around alot faster in flat turns. just remember to throttle back up on the engine you cut back. i just programmed the Slide on my throttle stick as my second throttle.
The notion that a dual throttle will allow you to turn tighter in a P-38 or any other dual engine plane is a myth. The dual throttle will allow easy recovery in some types of spins and make hammerheads look all pretty but that's basically it. It's great for the immersion factor and it will not be the reason why you won a fight but it can be the reason why you lost it.
ack-ack
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I run dual throttles with my X52, (for twin engine planes of course) its seems to really bring it around alot faster in flat turns. just remember to throttle back up on the engine you cut back. i just programmed the Slide on my throttle stick as my second throttle.
You should of attended my P38 clinic this past Saturday. It won't help you in a flat turn as the others have said.
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You should of attended my P38 clinic this past Saturday. It won't help you in a flat turn as the others have said.
i wish i could've been.....but alas i was out clearing my driveway...and my neighbors, and the other neighbors...then i passed out.......
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I actually use a quad throttle, two for the visible engines and two for the invisible engines that allow the P-38 to climb directly vertically without consequence. It wins me all the fights.
From what I can tell these engines simply appear depending on the number of throttles you have, I'll be ordering an octothrottle in the near future. Watch out 262s :devil.
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Cool i understand the dual throttle theory, good thought just not practical anyway, Delirium i remember that post on the clinic i think i even responded but my son had a HighSchool Bowling tourney that weekend and i was out of town, the 38 is something id really like to improve in, when flown right ( and Ive seen that) She's a beautiful lady.
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I actually use a quad throttle, two for the visible engines and two for the invisible engines that allow the P-38 to climb directly vertically without consequence. It wins me all the fights.
From what I can tell these engines simply appear depending on the number of throttles you have, I'll be ordering an octothrottle in the near future. Watch out 262s :devil.
Dang, my sextuple throttle is obsolete already!
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Just book marking this. to read later
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Just book marking this. to read later
sending them a link in a PM wouldn't work? :P
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Meh. The kill ratio for the B5N was once out of whack too. :neener:
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/b5n122.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/b5n122.jpg.html)
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(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/waystin2/NecroBumpBatman.jpg) (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/waystin2/media/NecroBumpBatman.jpg.html)
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6 years later...
IN before the lock.
:noid
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Big tip, learn how to get guys to miss, rather than turning tighter than them. Then kill them as their pass fails.
Efficiency is key in the large bird, especially in a furball.
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A Brewster will learn u everything u need about how u loose and gain E, and how to reverse the E status in order to be able to kill the con. :D
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6 years later...
IN before the lock.
:noid
Talon is it really you!!!!! My man good to see you stranger!!! :aok :cheers:
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Talon is it really you!!!!! My man good to see you stranger!!! :aok :cheers:
:cheers:
Howdy Bailey!
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I apologize for all these years I've made the P-38 stats out of whack.
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Damnit AKAK, quit clubbing baby seals :bhead.