P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.

[CAP1]

I agree with a poster which talked about any plane can take on any other plane, and it all depends on the pilot.

To prove this, I can give an example of getting my bellybutton handed to me by 8Spade flying a P40 out of all things while me in a 16. That was a shocker!!! I still remember this, that being around a year ago me thinks. I got away but was missing parts, after stall fight on the deck. Wish I had that filmed.

<S> 8Spade

1duke1 is a killer in that dam p40. imadot will kick most peoples arse in his hurri1 too. 

[Shuffler]

I've got kills in other planes if the 38 is not available (off carrier, FH down). I was just posting my 38 kills as this thread is aimed at the 38.

[TequilaChaser]

Have you ever seen a Hellcat up against an F8F? No comparison to be made lightly considering both are warbirds and are very cool either way but still... no comparison.

 I just noticed you provided a link of the older planes the Blue Angels had flown and some history of them..thanks for the link ( although whoever typed it up, has spelling troubles as bad as me, if not worse lol )


not sure what answer you are looking for here?  only reason I posted about the F6f in the Blue Angels, is because I was refering that they started out with a WW2 Fighter plane. I do agree the Bearcat is a monster to a Hellcat sitting side by side.......I have no knowledge of the 2 different planes flying against each other though, or seen any flightsim where 2 people could simulate such an event......

[Vinkman]

Great discussion but perhaps it's gotten a bit off track.

I'd like to address a few things about defences of the P-38L's climb-rate/vertical ability that seem to have been mis-stated. The energy vs. Speed argument has been made several times and this argument is only true when diving. If two planes are at the same speed the heavier plane has an advantage diving but a dis-advantage climbing. So the 38 shouldn't climb higher from a given speed bacause it's heavier than a lighter aircraft at the the same speed. So let me be clear. I'm talking about chasing a 38 at same or slower speed, 600-700 on his six o'clock and having him pull vertical and pull away from a C205 and out of gun range [800+yrds] and hang on his prop until my C205 stalls out and the chaser becomes the chased [and the dead I might add]
Physics suggest that can't happen. I can't figure out how to insert an image, so my appologies for having to describe the chart. But I have plotted the climb rate for C205 vs a P38L. And under 20K ft, the C205 climb rate is consistantly 10% higher. Climb rate is based mostly on power-weight, as is acceleration. So in level flight at the same speed it is not possible for a P-38 to pull vertical and pull away from a C205.
Departure behavior is a different thing. I understand that the P-38 probably has better and later departure characteristics, and may achieve a higher final alt due to departing later, but he should be dead before either of us depart, because I should close to 400 or so before stall.

The scenarios I discribed were not one offs, Lazer killed me like 12 times but I refer to about 5 of them that were vertical stall reversals. Then it was shuffler (4 times), then it was Hyperion, (3 or 4 times) then it was Airdog [?], and several others. I don't feel I mis-judging the speed every time. I have to be right some of the time and close the gap and get the kill, but, alas, I'm here writing about it.

So it is possible I am mis-judging the speed but I wanted to get some film to understand this.  I think the kill ratio stats of the first post back up my own personal experience of this manuever accounting for much of that stat, but I can't and am not trying to prove that. I'm just trying to see if others are dying this way, and if they've filmed it.

No offense to the 38 drivers, but I wanted to here from your vitims  Unless you 38 drivers want to post films of vertical reversal kills.

So....any films?

[Ack-Ack]

Don't confuse climb performance with vertical performance.  Also, the C.205 bleeds energy much quicker than the P-38 does in the vertical and has other contributing factors to the energy loss as well, such as fighting torque as you get slower in your vertical climb, the P-38 doesn't.  The P-38 also has two powerful engines pulling plane upwards.

It's not inaccurate flight modeling that is enabling some P-38 drivers to rope you.


ack-ack

[CAP1]

Great discussion but perhaps it's gotten a bit off track.

I'd like to address a few things about defences of the P-38L's climb-rate/vertical ability that seem to have been mis-stated. The energy vs. Speed argument has been made several times and this argument is only true when diving. If two planes are at the same speed the heavier plane has an advantage diving but a dis-advantage climbing. So the 38 shouldn't climb higher from a given speed bacause it's heavier than a lighter aircraft at the the same speed. So let me be clear. I'm talking about chasing a 38 at same or slower speed, 600-700 on his six o'clock and having him pull vertical and pull away from a C205 and out of gun range [800+yrds] and hang on his prop until my C205 stalls out and the chaser becomes the chased [and the dead I might add]
Physics suggest that can't happen. I can't figure out how to insert an image, so my appologies for having to describe the chart. But I have plotted the climb rate for C205 vs a P38L. And under 20K ft, the C205 climb rate is consistantly 10% higher. Climb rate is based mostly on power-weight, as is acceleration. So in level flight at the same speed it is not possible for a P-38 to pull vertical and pull away from a C205.
Departure behavior is a different thing. I understand that the P-38 probably has better and later departure characteristics, and may achieve a higher final alt due to departing later, but he should be dead before either of us depart, because I should close to 400 or so before stall.

The scenarios I discribed were not one offs, Lazer killed me like 12 times but I refer to about 5 of them that were vertical stall reversals. Then it was shuffler (4 times), then it was Hyperion, (3 or 4 times) then it was Airdog [?], and several others. I don't feel I mis-judging the speed every time. I have to be right some of the time and close the gap and get the kill, but, alas, I'm here writing about it.

So it is possible I am mis-judging the speed but I wanted to get some film to understand this.  I think the kill ratio stats of the first post back up my own personal experience of this manuever accounting for much of that stat, but I can't and am not trying to prove that. I'm just trying to see if others are dying this way, and if they've filmed it.

No offense to the 38 drivers, but I wanted to here from your vitims  Unless you 38 drivers want to post films of vertical reversal kills.

So....any films?

kinetic energy. the heavier aircraft at the same speed will hold more stored energy, and should allow it to maintain a vertical maneuver longer, due to the momentum.

[Shuffler]

kinetic energy. the heavier aircraft at the same speed will hold more stored energy, and should allow it to maintain a vertical maneuver longer, due to the momentum.

That alone should be enough but throw in the c2 counteracting torque and your creating more drag on the bird.

[BnZs]

kinetic energy. the heavier aircraft at the same speed will hold more stored energy, and should allow it to maintain a vertical maneuver longer, due to the momentum.

And it doesn't work out that way. Zoom a SpitXVI and a P-47N straight up from the same alt and the same speed, and you'll be able to get almost identical zoom heights out of either. Once again, we had a long thread where the guys with a head for physics posted alot of math explaining why the heavier plane *does not* have an advantage in the zoom. What the P-38 *does* have is no net torque, which allows it to hold a zoom longer at while firewalled without loosing control, compared to a single-engine job.

[Delirium]

Once again, we had a long thread where the guys with a head for physics posted alot of math explaining why the heavier plane *does not* have an advantage in the zoom.

Power off, the plane with the higher mass in AH will out zoom the one with the smaller mass.

[CAP1]

Power off, the plane with the higher mass in AH will out zoom the one with the smaller mass.

WHICH brings us back to kinetic energy....or stored energy?

[mtnman]

I'm just trying to see if others are dying this way, and if they've filmed it.

No offense to the 38 drivers, but I wanted to here from your vitims  Unless you 38 drivers want to post films of vertical reversal kills.

So....any films?

Yes, others die this way, whether they film it or not.  And it's not just a "P38" thing, or a "P38 vs C205" thing.  I rope P38's quite often in my F4U, regardless of the P38's performance, lack of torque, or any other factor.  I also rope other planes that have me beat overall, as long as they don't have me beat in that particular instance...

The "rope" does not depend purely on overall performance differences between the two planes.  A P38 that can easily rope an opponent at one point in a fight, may be suicidal to try it a few seconds sooner or later in that same fight. 

What type of films are you looking for specifically?  How to "beat" the rope?  Just don't follow it up, unless you're obviously gaining on him as you go up.  If you are "holding even" as far as closure while following him vertical, you're in trouble...  You've "beaten the rope" as soon as you've refused to get roped.  It takes the rope out of the picture, and forces him to use a different tactic.

[Vinkman]

That alone should be enough but throw in the c2 counteracting torque and your creating more drag on the bird.

This is incorrect. Kinetic energy explanes why heavy bullets travel farther than light bullets. In that case, the energy bleed is friction loss due to drag which is the same for both bullets, but the heavier bullet has more  engery to lose. When pulling into the vertical, the kinetic engery is being converted into potential engergy in a gravitational field. It's gravity that slows the plane down not friction loss. It takes more engergy to move a heavier plane to a higher altitude than it take to move a lighter plane to a higher altitude. So the heavey plane has to convert it's engery faster to make the same manuever. In other words the mass effect cancels itself out.

[Vinkman]

Yes, others die this way, whether they film it or not.  And it's not just a "P38" thing, or a "P38 vs C205" thing.  I rope P38's quite often in my F4U, regardless of the P38's performance, lack of torque, or any other factor.  I also rope other planes that have me beat overall, as long as they don't have me beat in that particular instance...

The "rope" does not depend purely on overall performance differences between the two planes.  A P38 that can easily rope an opponent at one point in a fight, may be suicidal to try it a few seconds sooner or later in that same fight. 

What type of films are you looking for specifically?  How to "beat" the rope?  Just don't follow it up, unless you're obviously gaining on him as you go up.  If you are "holding even" as far as closure while following him vertical, you're in trouble...  You've "beaten the rope" as soon as you've refused to get roped.  It takes the rope out of the picture, and forces him to use a different tactic.

I proposed a theory that the P-38 has superior vertical performance compared with other MA planes that the performance specs suggest it shouldn't possess, leading to a high number of 'rope' kills. I want to use film to see if my ascertion is correct. I'm perfectly fine with being wrong, and the films should show that too. I'd like to see film of P-38s performing vertical stall reversal manuevers for victories.

Thanks to any and all who post such films.

Lazerr, shuffler, Hyperion, Delerium, must have 30 among them if they filmed and saved any times they killed me in this exact fashion. I unfortunetly didn't.

[CAP1]

And it doesn't work out that way. Zoom a SpitXVI and a P-47N straight up from the same alt and the same speed, and you'll be able to get almost identical zoom heights out of either. Once again, we had a long thread where the guys with a head for physics posted alot of math explaining why the heavier plane *does not* have an advantage in the zoom. What the P-38 *does* have is no net torque, which allows it to hold a zoom longer at while firewalled without loosing control, compared to a single-engine job.

i had a fight against aarrg the other night. him zeek, me 38j. i don't really know how to fight a zeek, so i stayed a bit above him.
 eventually, we ended up co-alt, but with the 38 i could extend away at will....which i did. several times, i went vertical, and he followed. we were within 20 to 30 mph of each other. every time, he stalled well below me, and before me.

 i pretty much think that has more to do with the fact that his weight was probably around 7,000 pounds to my 38's fatness of about 11,000 to 12,000 pounds.
 then to top it off, he has to work his rudder to counter his engines torque as he loses speed....good ole "P" factor.   this i believe creates even more drag, helping my cause.

 i would go max. 2 turns before i felt i had to extend, and it's the first time i've successfully fought a zeek without having to pick, or bnz.
 i watched the film, and it was actually incredibly boring, but it let me see how the e states equaled out at times.

[CAP1]

This is incorrect. Kinetic energy explanes why heavy bullets travel farther than light bullets. In that case, the energy bleed is friction loss due to drag which is the same for both bullets, but the heavier bullet has more  engery to lose. When pulling into the vertical, the kinetic engery is being converted into potential engergy in a gravitational field. It's gravity that slows the plane down not friction loss. It takes more engergy to move a heavier plane to a higher altitude than it take to move a lighter plane to a higher altitude. So the heavey plane has to convert it's engery faster to make the same manuever. In other words the mass effect cancels itself out.

right.......and since the larger heavier plane can/does store more energy, this gives it more energy to maneuver vertically with.