Author Topic: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.  (Read 53760 times)

Offline BnZs

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #360 on: September 28, 2009, 06:40:25 PM »
Are you saying that P-38s have less drag than other planes. (Drag force) = (frontal area)*(drag coeficient). Assuming these planes are all streamlined (Coeficient of drag in .15 range) the frontal area of a P-38 is slightly less than twice that of most single engine fighters. That's why it needs twice the horse power to go slightly faster (top speed). Planes with higher power to weight ratios would have more power left over to overcome drag losses when climbing. Hence they climb faster. I'm pretty sure drag is factored into climb rate, so I don' think this is not a missed point on my part.  

A zoom climb is typically begun from high airspeeds. A steady climb is at low airspeeds where drag is less of a factor. So yes, low drag is more of a positive in zooms than in a steady climb.

As for the P-38s zoom climb performance...it isn't UFO like at all. I've tested the zoom climbs of aircraft by 1. diving to sea level and hitting auto level. 2. Allowing the plane to declerate to 400mph and doing a 3g pull to the vertical. 3. Hitting shift-X to hold it in the vertical until it falls out of the sky. I got only a little more heigth out of the P-38s than with other planes, which I attribute to torqueless operation allowing it to stay nose high until it is completely out of airspeed.

I have also demonstrated and had it demonstrated to me ad nauseum, that from a co-e start the climb rate and e-retention of something like a SpitXVI will not allow the P-38 to simply run away in the vertical. What the P-38 will do is remain nose up at slow airspeeds long after any single engine airplane has flopped over and is fighting to recover, and go nose down again for the kill while remaining in control. But this isn't UFO behavior either, simply an obvious benefit of twin-engine counter-rotating design.

Basically, if you are finding the P-38 an insurmountable obstacle it might have something to do with relative pilot quality.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 06:44:27 PM by BnZs »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #361 on: September 28, 2009, 06:56:09 PM »
ok i am back from my weekend trip and i see many of you have been having a good time in my absence ...

lots of stuff that i feel the need to comment on, this may take some time ...

you are incorrect sir the flaps, B-R-A-K-E-S, or whatever else you call them slow you down.

easy to check just deploy any of them (including any follower types) in level flight and see what they do while you maintain level flight.  they will slow you down.

they also do other things but they all increase drag(usually several different kinds of drag) and drag reduces your speed "."

++S++
 
t

IIRC Widewing tested it, and the P-38L's dive flaps *do not* slow you down in AHII. Which is wierd, they should provide *some* drag, hanging out in the breeze and all, but they do not.

Again, the dive flaps on the P-38L (notice thorsim, the key word is "flaps" and not "brakes") were not meant to slow the plane down as they are not designed for such a job.  As I mentioned in my previous post, the basic intent was to provide a nose up pitch to aid in dive recovery and stave off compressability.  Yes, there was a drag penalty associated with it but the drag was not sufficient enough to slow the plane down like dive/air brakes would.  The main contributor to energy loss that came from using the dive flaps was a result of the nose up pitch and not the drag from the dive flaps.

In AH, there never has been a drag penalty associated with them and if even if there was, the drag penalty would be minimul and wouldn't effect the P-38L's performance in anyway if deployed.

P-38 drivers in real life never used the dive flaps to slow them down like dive brakes.  


ack-ack
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 06:58:07 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline thorsim

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #362 on: September 28, 2009, 07:00:43 PM »
considering the difference between what should happen and what does not happen in AH vs TRW maybe we should revisit the things i brought up before i left ...

otherwise you should probably stop trying to equate the video games to real life,
it makes people like myself who understand these things feel the need to comment.

 
Thorsim, we ve moved on to a different deadhorse to beat while you were gone, sorry.

well.....flaps ingame don't take an inferior turning plane and make it superior turning.

 that would be the pile-it keeping his aircraft in it's respective flight envelope.


i haven't mastered it yet, but i've finally on occasion managed to turn my 38j inside a spit, and a couple hellkitties.

 while they were in flat turns, on one occasion, i was way too fast, but still got inside of him.....another i was waaaaay slower than i should've been....and managed to get inside.
 it was no trickery. it was recognition of the need to change my tactics.,...and in so doing, i got better performance.

 an air force friend of mine(somehwat of a historian) has messed with different ww2 flight games. he knows pilots from ww2, as do i.
 from talking with these people, it would seem that the modeling is pretty darned close here.

 of course there's some gamey things.......but for the most part, when you or me get beat, it has nothing to do with "tricks", so much as it has to do with the fact that the other cartoon pile-it just simply knew his cartoon airplane better.  :aok

almost forgot.....in those AAR's i posted.....they were new pilots.

the 38's use flowler flaps, which function differently than standard flaps also.
no they operate differently, they function the same.

follower flaps increase the lift developed by the wing by changing the shape of the wing and thereby changing the airflow.  follower flaps do have a better lift/drag ratio than some other types of flaps but they still add drag.  

your envelope comment is incorrect by deploying your flap you are leaving you planes most efficient state to a less efficient state which will temporarily give you better performance in one aspect of flight while at the same time giving you worse performance in another aspect of flight, in this case lift over speed.

what a pilot is doing in the real world when he deploys a low deflection of flaps to solve an angle problem is essentially leaving his envelope and entering his opponents envelope (which could be inherent or situational)
extreme deployments or extended deployments even of small amounts of deflection will result in a growing disadvantage vs. a similar aircraft that has maintained its most efficient state.  

i.e. a 38 could close up its turn vs. a better turning spitfire by using its flap options however by doing so it should enter more and more into the area of flight where the more maneuverable spitfire becomes more and more superior.

that is how things should develop.

yes if the 38 gets a solution before the drawbacks of dropping his flaps reverses the advantage then all is well and good for the 38 pilot, and of course pilot skill is a factor, but not because the 38 pilot fought the fight in his envelope, at least not in the case you described above.

IIRC Widewing tested it, and the P-38L's dive flaps *do not* slow you down in AHII. Which is wierd, they should provide *some* drag, hanging out in the breeze and all, but they do not.
Again, the dive flaps on the P-38L (notice thorsim, the key word is "flaps" and not "brakes") were not meant to slow the plane down as they are not designed for such a job.  As I mentioned in my previous post, the basic intent was to provide a nose up pitch to aid in dive recovery and stave off compressability.  Yes, there was a drag penalty associated with it but the drag was not sufficient enough to slow the plane down like dive/air brakes would.  The main contributor to energy loss that came from using the dive flaps was a result of the nose up pitch and not the drag from the dive flaps.

In AH, there never has been a drag penalty associated with them and if even if there was, the drag penalty would be minimul and wouldn't effect the P-38L's performance in anyway if deployed.

P-38 drivers in real life never used the dive flaps to slow them down like dive brakes.  


ack-ack


of course if the disadvantages to dropping flaps are not represented or underrepresented in AH that relationship will obviously change as well, but please do not equate that to any sort of reality.

which might shed some light on why the flaps in AH are such a popular topic.

no offense

++S++

t
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 07:02:43 PM by thorsim »
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Offline Yeager

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #363 on: September 28, 2009, 07:15:16 PM »
it makes people like myself who understand these things feel the need to comment.

they are called fowler flaps, not follower flaps.  People like you should know this?

Thor, your desire for a combat flight simulator that mimics perfectly the physics of flight is comendable, but the reality is 95% of the ww2 flight combat game community would be frustrated and bored to tears participating in such a simulator.  The ballistic skill requirement alone would run the vast majority out of the simulator.

AH is about as balanced a game/simulator as people like the rest of us could hope for.

Just leave it.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 07:19:19 PM by Yeager »
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Offline Vinkman

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #364 on: September 28, 2009, 07:26:01 PM »
Again, the dive flaps on the P-38L (notice thorsim, the key word is "flaps" and not "brakes") were not meant to slow the plane down as they are not designed for such a job.  As I mentioned in my previous post, the basic intent was to provide a nose up pitch to aid in dive recovery and stave off compressability.  Yes, there was a drag penalty associated with it but the drag was not sufficient enough to slow the plane down like dive/air brakes would.  The main contributor to energy loss that came from using the dive flaps was a result of the nose up pitch and not the drag from the dive flaps.
P-38 drivers in real life never used the dive flaps to slow them down like dive brakes.  

ack-ack

I did see a film of their purpose on Great Planes I believe. The dive 'brakes' according to the program [And the supporting war time film, possibly a pilot training film] did not and were not designed to slow the plane down to non-compressible speeds. Instead they changed the shape of main wing's airfoil which caused the turbulent flow to exit the wing at much lower point restoring laminar flow to the evelator at the tail section. This restored elevator operation and allowed the plane to pull out of the dive. I believe this was developed in leu of forcing the plane to slow down.  It is relavant to notice that the elevators of the Lightning are almost in the same plane as the main wing. I think this is why the plane suffered from compression effects more than other planes.
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Offline FLS

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #365 on: September 28, 2009, 07:53:37 PM »
Vinkman, instead of analyzing films, which is always a good idea, have you tried flying the P-38 and duplicating the zoom and reversal?

Sorry if I missed this somewhere in this discussion.

Offline CAP1

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #366 on: September 28, 2009, 08:05:30 PM »
Climb rate is a good comparison. 38 vertical performance should not be better than planes with better climb rates.


no, as climb rate is not used in combat. climb rate is how you get to combat altitude.

Vx is your best angle of climb.
Vy is your best rate of climb.

i always get these backwards.........at your best rate of climb, you'll get to a higher altitude in a shorter time, but will cover more distance. at your best angle of climb, you'll get to a higher altitude in a shorter distance, but it'll take ya a little longer. golfer of someone will correct me if i got em backwards again(i hope).

 now, since you're not attempting to sustain a climb during combat, these numbers are irrelevant. when you go nose up in anything, you're not staying that way very long........you're either going to roll over, or drop it off to one side or the other, hoping to gain a better position.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #367 on: September 28, 2009, 08:06:44 PM »
no matter how much you guys talk up the 38 I still cant fly that thing at all, and I am amazed at how some of the better sticks are in it, and think to my self, man I'm glad he's not in a spit :rofl

would you believe, that with the exception of the zeek, i have a little trouble in single engine planes now? :noid
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Offline CAP1

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #368 on: September 28, 2009, 08:09:47 PM »
ok i am back from my weekend trip and i see many of you have been having a good time in my absence ...

lots of stuff that i feel the need to comment on, this may take some time ...

you are incorrect sir the flaps, B-R-A-K-E-S, or whatever else you call them slow you down.

easy to check just deploy any of them (including any follower types) in level flight and see what they do while you maintain level flight.  they will slow you down.

they also do other things but they all increase drag(usually several different kinds of drag) and drag reduces your speed "."

++S++
 
t

this is where you're losing it. look at the pictures that akak posted. they do NOT slow you down. they simply change the center of lift on the wing, causing a nose up pitch.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #369 on: September 28, 2009, 08:15:33 PM »
I did see a film of their purpose on Great Planes I believe. The dive 'brakes' according to the program [And the supporting war time film, possibly a pilot training film] did not and were not designed to slow the plane down to non-compressible speeds. Instead they changed the shape of main wing's airfoil which caused the turbulent flow to exit the wing at much lower point restoring laminar flow to the evelator at the tail section. This restored elevator operation and allowed the plane to pull out of the dive. I believe this was developed in leu of forcing the plane to slow down.  It is relavant to notice that the elevators of the Lightning are almost in the same plane as the main wing. I think this is why the plane suffered from compression effects more than other planes.

did you read any of the AAR's? the fowler flaps are used for maneuvering. ingame, we don't drop our flaps, and leave em out. we're constantly working our flaps, throttles, and everything else.

 dive BRAKES are what you find on a ju88. dive FLAPS are what you find on a p38. they are for high speed dive recovery. read the link. it's all there.

 i think around mach .65 is when the 38 starts to tuck under. these recovery flaps change the lift profile of the wing, causing it to pitch the nose up, helping recover from the dive.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #370 on: September 28, 2009, 08:19:53 PM »
yeager i agree ...

however it is much easier to take things lightly (as i did in my first post in this thread) when people do not jump on you with their incorrect contradictions to you posts, accusations of one sort or another, finding major faults with minor misnomers on an otherwise correct point, generally being argumentative about things, and trying to justify game situations with poor arguments about how the game "mimics" real life. 

as you stated it does, and it does not. 

i do not have a problem with that so much, it is the "justification" arguments that are difficult for me to ignore, that and people focusing on minor irrelevant errors i may have made in an effort to undermine the general accuracy of one of my points.

i am fine with approaching the game as a game.  lets then just not confuse the issue with reality at all, or discussions about how "you just don't know anything" because you notice something inaccurate that other people may like about a game, in those cases imo it is much easier to tolerate a "well it is just a game" statement like yours than a bunch of people posting incorrect statements in an attempt to justify an incorrect situation in the game. 

i've had 12 years of that stuff and my tolerance has worn thin ...

no offense to anyone ...

++S++

t

 


they are called fowler flaps, not follower flaps.  People like you should know this?

Thor, your desire for a combat flight simulator that mimics perfectly the physics of flight is comendable, but the reality is 95% of the ww2 flight combat game community would be frustrated and bored to tears participating in such a simulator.  The ballistic skill requirement alone would run the vast majority out of the simulator.

AH is about as balanced a game/simulator as people like the rest of us could hope for.

Just leave it.
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blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
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Offline thorsim

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #371 on: September 28, 2009, 08:27:54 PM »
so then they help you in a climb, and do not hinder your top level speed ???

they do NOT slow you down.

they slow you down, can gravity and thrust compensate? sure.

do they do other things like change AOA? sure.

however that does not change the fact that they slow you down, at least in the real world.

just like Fowler flaps slow you down ...

in the real world.

++S++

t
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Offline BnZs

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #372 on: September 28, 2009, 08:28:31 PM »
The problem is that you have failed to find a single instance where the P-38's flight performance ingame is unrealistic. You keep harping on flaps, acting as if they are modeled incorrectly in AHII. In r/l flaps increase both lift and drag...in AHII they increase both lift and drag...and deploying too much flaps in AHII brings about diminishing returns too.


yeager i agree ...

however it is much easier to take things lightly (as i did in my first post in this thread) when people do not jump on you with their incorrect contradictions to you posts, accusations of one sort or another, finding major faults with minor misnomers on an otherwise correct point, generally being argumentative about things, and trying to justify game situations with poor arguments about how the game "mimics" real life. 

as you stated it does, and it does not. 

i do not have a problem with that so much, it is the "justification" arguments that are difficult for me to ignore, that and people focusing on minor irrelevant errors i may have made in an effort to undermine the general accuracy of one of my points.

i am fine with approaching the game as a game.  lets then just not confuse the issue with reality at all, or discussions about how "you just don't know anything" because you notice something inaccurate that other people may like about a game, in those cases imo it is much easier to tolerate a "well it is just a game" statement like yours than a bunch of people posting incorrect statements in an attempt to justify an incorrect situation in the game. 

i've had 12 years of that stuff and my tolerance has worn thin ...

no offense to anyone ...

++S++

t

 


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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #373 on: September 28, 2009, 08:29:11 PM »
A few things for those who do not know to consider.

The P-38 had a rather thick wing, called a high aspect ratio wing. It was there for two reasons. One, there is no place in the P-38 fuselage to carry fuel, and the P-38 was designed to be a long range high altitude bomber interceptor. That means it was intended to fly over 500 miles one way, at high altitude, and intercept enemy bombers. So it needed a lot of internal fuel capacity (there were no drop tanks being used in 1937/1938). And in the original design, the intercooler was in the leading edge of the outer wing, so there was no fuel in the outer wing. Only in the later J and L models did the leading edge of the outer wing become a fuel tank as opposed to an intercooler. The other reason for that thick wing, once it was chosen to allow for fuel capacity, is for its climbing ability. That high aspect ratio wing meant that although the P-38 carried a fair amount of weight per square foot of wing, the actual wing loading was easily handled by the more efficient (for climbing) high aspect ratio wing.

When you compare wing loading simply by pounds per square foot, and ignore the wing profile itself, you give yourself a false result, and you are not accurately comparing true wing loading.

The fault of this thick wing was that at higher speeds, it forced air to accelerate to speeds between just sub sonic, to super sonic. The wing itself, by design, was speed limited.

Early on, they changed the radius of the fillet joint where the wing joined the center nacelle. This joint was actually so critical that the fit had to be perfect from the leading edge all the way past the cockpit window. Any problems with the fit there lead to instability and early onset of compression.

While the P-38 was heavier than a P-51, it also had over 3200HP (in the P-38J, the P-38L had over 3450HP), and that 3200HP was producing thrust through two propellers. So, the P-38 had nearly double the HP of the P-51, but it was not double the weight, and the HP of the P-38 was generating its thrust through two propellers. So, once again, when you compare power to weight, if you ignore the difference in thrust, you also get a false result, preventing a correct and useful comparison.

Fowler flaps not only change the shape of the wing, and do so while creating less drag, they also change the chord and the aspect ratio, which makes them a good bit more efficient than other flap designs. And the Fowler flaps on the P-38 were, according to most, more efficient than the Fowler flaps on the P-47.

The dive flaps installed on the P-38, according to Kelly Johnson, added very little drag. The reason for this is they changed the shape of the wing, and reduced the high speed turbulence that was a part of the compression problem. The turbulence created as part of the compression problem caused a serious disruption in air flow over the wing, actually increasing drag. That is why if the dive flaps were deployed after a dive began, and after the onset of buffeting, they would momentarily increase the buffeting, before reducing the buffeting. But they would not slow the plane down. Some pilots reported that the plane actually increased its speed after the dive flaps were deployed. The dive flaps also gave a momentary "pitch up" of about 15 degrees if deployed when not diving.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #374 on: September 28, 2009, 08:31:20 PM »
The dive-flaps we were speaking of don't do anything except help the nose pitch up at high speeds.

We were not discussing the maneuvering flaps, who do cause drag in game.

so then they help you in a climb, and do not hinder your top level speed ???

they slow you down, can gravity and thrust compensate? sure.

do they do other things like change AOA? sure.

however that does not change the fact that they slow you down, at least in the real world.

just like Fowler flaps slow you down ...

in the real world.

++S++

t

"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."