Roll Delay

[Stalwart]

Posted for review, roll_delay.mis and roll_delay.res here: http://www.esnips.com/web/StalwartsAcesHighMissions/

Roll Delay - This is the number of seconds before a flight starts taxiing toward its takeoff segment. Normally, this would be used if several flights are taking off from the same airfield and time is needed to clear the runways of other flights on different routes. For flights on the same route this delay is automated.

Technique One:  A single route with multiple flights, with 36 seconds roll delay between each.
Technique Two:  Eight identical routes, each with a single flight, with 36 seconds roll delay between each.

In both cases, the roll delay settings are 0, 36, 72, 108, 144, 180, 216, 252, for flights/routes 1 through 8 respectively.

Technique One Results:  All the flights queue up and roll just as if there were no roll delay, however after takeoff the second and all subsequent flights orbit the field in a seemingly random pattern.  Eventually they straighten out and warp.

Technique Two Results:  The second and subsequent flights spawn immediately, but do not roll immediately.  But again once they roll, they begin to orbit the field in a seemingly random pattern before finally straightening out and warping.

I expected the planes to spawn, wait for their turn, then roll and fly the route without the meandering around.

Maybe I'm doing this wrong?

 
Stalwart

[Stalwart]

Sorry if I was vague.  This thread is a request for help with Roll Delay settings.

[Stalwart]

Here are some stats on the roll and warp times for the two techniques described above:


Technique One
         Roll       Roll       Warp       Warp
Flight   Time       Interval   Time       Interval
     1   00:05:00              01:22:93
     2   00:10:35   00:05:35   01:59:20   00:36:27
     3   00:15:57   00:05:22   02:34:78   00:35:58
     4   00:21:00   00:05:43   03:10:76   00:35:98
     5   00:26:32   00:05:32   03:47:20   00:36:44
     6   00:31:67   00:05:35   04:23:18   00:35:98
     7   00:37:01   00:05:34   04:58:73   00:35:55
     8   00:42:35   00:05:34   05:34:73   00:36:00


Technique Two
         Roll       Roll       Warp       Warp
Flight   Time       Interval   Time       Interval
     1   00:05:00              01:22:00
     2   00:41:00   00:36:00   02:34:36   01:12:36
     3   01:17:09   00:36:09   03:46:15   01:11:79
     4   01:52:96   00:35:87   04:58:31   01:12:16
     5   02:29:01   00:36:05   06:10:43   01:12:12
     6   03:04:98   00:35:97   07:22:40   01:11:97
     7   03:40:96   00:35:98   08:34:09   01:11:69
     8   04:17:00   00:36:04   09:46:34   01:12:25


These times were taken manually. My age, slow reaction time, and fat fingers contribute to minor inaccuracies.

[Stalwart]

So...   In the current version of the editor / game:

If you want to manage the arrival time of flights to the combat area using roll delay and warps, use technique one.  This is the least labor intensive option.

If you want to manage the taxi and runway space with roll delay, use technique two.

A third option is to create a separate route for each flight, extending the taxi segments to manage the roll and warp intervals.  This will give you precise control over the roll time, takeoff time, and warp time, but is the most labor intensive option.

Thank Stalwart for this lovely pedantic conversation with myself.
 

Your welcome Stalwart.

[Baumer]

I'm sorry I still don't understand your question about roll delay Stalwart.

In my experience with the ME the roll delay does not serve any purpose with multiple flights in one route. However, if you have multiple routes within 1 mission originating at the same field then you can see the roll delay working so that planes don't taxi through each other.

I have always used a simple time speed distance equation to ensure that the different flights come together in the engagement area at the proper time. It's a rather labor intensive but it's all that's available at the moment.

[Stalwart]

I'm sorry I still don't understand your question about roll delay Stalwart.

I'm so misunderstood.    

In my experience with the ME the roll delay does not serve any purpose with multiple flights in one route.

Actually, roll delays segregating multiple flights on a single route will have an affect on the time each flight reaches the first warp segment, as demonstrated in the testing stats for the "first technique".

However, if you have multiple routes within 1 mission originating at the same field then you can see the roll delay working so that planes don't taxi through each other.

True, but you might be surprised to see how roll delay impacts the time for each flight to reach the first warp segment.  In the "technique two" test, roll delay increased by 36 seconds for each flight, but the time for each flight to reach the first warp segment increased by 72 seconds.

I have always used a simple time speed distance equation to ensure that the different flights come together in the engagement area at the proper time. It's a rather labor intensive but it's all that's available at the moment.

Me too, but my mission designs were becoming unmanageable.  In one instance I had two dozen routes each with four dozen segments.  Making a simple change to one route created a monumental task to synchronize the other routes with the changed route.  So I started experimenting to see what efficiencies I could gain.  Something interesting happened when I started using roll delays...  So let me try to rephrase the question:

If you have two identical flights, with two identical spawn points, on two identical routes, and you delay the roll time for the second flight 36 seconds, would you expect the second flight to fly the exact same segments, passing through each way point exactly 36 seconds behind the first flight?  

Now, test your hypothesis.  

[Stalwart]

I left out critical information the first time I posted the stats:  
     Roll Delay setting, and Delay Interval


Technique One
         Roll         Delay      Roll       Roll       Warp       Warp
Flight   Delay        Interval   Time       Interval   Time       Interval
     1     0.000000              00:05:00              01:22:93
     2    36.000000   00:36:00   00:10:35   00:05:35   01:59:20   00:36:27
     3    72.000000   00:36:00   00:15:57   00:05:22   02:34:78   00:35:58
     4   108.000000   00:36:00   00:21:00   00:05:43   03:10:76   00:35:98
     5   144.000000   00:36:00   00:26:32   00:05:32   03:47:20   00:36:44
     6   180.000000   00:36:00   00:31:67   00:05:35   04:23:18   00:35:98
     7   216.000000   00:36:00   00:37:01   00:05:34   04:58:73   00:35:55
     8   252.000000   00:36:00   00:42:35   00:05:34   05:34:73   00:36:00


Technique Two
         Roll         Delay      Roll       Roll       Warp       Warp
Flight   Delay        Interval   Time       Interval   Time       Interval
     1     0.000000              00:05:00              01:22:00
     2    36.000000   00:36:00   00:41:00   00:36:00   02:34:36   01:12:36
     3    72.000000   00:36:00   01:17:09   00:36:09   03:46:15   01:11:79
     4   108.000000   00:36:00   01:52:96   00:35:87   04:58:31   01:12:16
     5   144.000000   00:36:00   02:29:01   00:36:05   06:10:43   01:12:12
     6   180.000000   00:36:00   03:04:98   00:35:97   07:22:40   01:11:97
     7   216.000000   00:36:00   03:40:96   00:35:98   08:34:09   01:11:69
     8   252.000000   00:36:00   04:17:00   00:36:04   09:46:34   01:12:25

[Stalwart]

Looking at the stats above for Technique One, in the red highlighted columns one can observe:

• The flights rolled from their spawn points about five (5) seconds apart.
• The flights warped about thirty six (36) seconds apart.

Looking at the stats above for Technique Two, in the red highlighted columns one can observe:

• The flights rolled from their spawn points about thirty six (36) seconds apart.
• The flights warped about seventy two (72) seconds apart.

Each flight subsequent to the first flight is following it's own unique path to the warp point.  The different paths increase the time-to-warp interval in a consistent pattern.  In technique one, the time to warp interval matches the roll delay interval.  In technique two, the time to warp interval is twice the roll delay interval.

   Clear as mud?  

[Stalwart]

You can probably see I'm having a wonderful time with this experiment, data, and thread.  My mind is hungry for analysis work.  I'm usually only this anal about HIPAA mandated ANSI X12 standards for Health Care EDI transactions, or Model 204 FDWOL search efficiencies.  But since I have no 835 remittance advice to reconcile, 837 claim rejections to resolve, or renegade database retrievals dimming the lights, I seem to be making up my own work.

     Work... Need... Work!~

[Baumer]

LOL well just divide the roll delay by 0, that should be enough work for ya.

Seriously though, I'm not sure why you're making so much work for your self. I've built 96 plane combat wing formations without using any roll delay. I do understand and appreciate the hard work that goes into a large groups and with a couple of complicated routes it can get very cumbersome.

I prefer to get them all in the air then into formation before you do any warping. Once you've got that all worked out and the formation in tact then you can go back and change them to warp segments.

[Stalwart]

Baumer,  Thank you for working through this with me.

Mission Concept and Problem Statement:
A flight of Hurricane IIC will take on new adversaries every two minutes.  How can I deliver to the combat area ten identical flights, flying the same way points and segments, two minutes apart from each other, without building and managing a separate route for each flight?

I attempted some solutions utilizing roll delay and had some failures and discoveries.  Roll delay did not produce the flight behaviors I expected.  The more I played with it, the more curious I became.  My focus shifted from solving the mission problem to understanding the behavior of roll delayed flights.

I've satisfied my curiosity and attempted to document my observations within this thread.  For me, the bottom line is roll delay does more than just set your flight back n seconds.  It changes the path of a flight after takeoff, extending it. 

This all becomes very clear to anyone who is curious enough about the subject to build and observer their own experiments in the ME.  Or, you can just download this one, run it in the editor, and watch the different behaviors of the two sets of flights: 

http://www.esnips.com/web/StalwartsAcesHighMissions/    "roll_delay.mis"

[ares473]

What about delay between routes? Lets see if I can ask this to where it makes some kind of sense. I have two identical routes, and each route contains four flights that I have spaced in a box formation. Now I want Route #2 of four flights to fly the same route but just behind the first route. Do I need to set the segment offset of the first flight of Route2 or do I need to set a roll delay (which I think wouldn't work since my routes are spawning in-flight)? I am wanting to basically set spacing between routes but yet all fly the same waypoints and direction. Thanks.

[Stalwart]

Roll delay is the only tool to add time interval between flights flying the same route instance.  This should work, but roll delay will do some strange unintuitive things, and the behavior changes when you manipulate a flight's spawn point.

Another technique within the same mission instance is to copy your route for each group of flights.  Edit the second route to extend the first segment backward.  Assign flights to your second route and move your spawn points to the new segment start point.  But then you've created multiple routes to manage.

Yet another technique is to get your mission perfect then copy your whole mission.  Now, change your mission copy to add time to the mission briefing.  This gives you an exact duplicate mission/route/flight group, but with a spawn delay.  Unless HTC added a "copy mission" function in the last release, this technique falls outside the capabilities of the mission editor, requires skill with a text editor, and may introduce errors. uhoh

In any case, post what works and what doesn't.

[Stalwart]

A "route delay" would be a nice feature to solve the design problem, eh?

[USRanger]

What about delay between routes? Lets see if I can ask this to where it makes some kind of sense. I have two identical routes, and each route contains four flights that I have spaced in a box formation. Now I want Route #2 of four flights to fly the same route but just behind the first route. Do I need to set the segment offset of the first flight of Route2 or do I need to set a roll delay (which I think wouldn't work since my routes are spawning in-flight)? I am wanting to basically set spacing between routes but yet all fly the same waypoints and direction. Thanks.

When you say identical routes, do you mean identical?  As in, same speed, alt., heading, everything?  If so, why have separate routes?  How far back from the front flights are you wanting the rear flights?  If it's not an extreme distance, I would just move the rear flights back from the front flights by using the rear's Z offset, assigning it a negative number for how many meters you want rear flights back.  I've used this way for up to 5000m back with no ill effects.  However, I've never did it using air spawns.  I just use it for their spacing near the target area, usually after a warp.