Minengeschoss

[Tony Williams]

I have some notes from tests of the German mine shells which the British
conducted, which may be of interest in modelling damage.  

One hit from the 30mm would probably or certainly destroy a
fighter or light bomber; a hit on a Spitfire fuselage behind the cockpit
virtually blew it in half.  Interestingly, the British reckoned that it
didn't do much damage if it exploded inside the fuselage of a big bomber
(presumably too much volume for the explosive to expand into).  It was most
dangerous with wing hits, as the blast would strip the skinning off the
wings, ruining their aerodynamics and making it more difficult to fly home.
It was also very good at igniting fuel.

The 20mm mine shell didn't show up quite so well.  A comparative test with
the Hispano concluded that there wouldn't be much difference.  What the
Hispano lost in explosive effect (only half the HE), it gained in kinetic energy, and it stood a better chance of punching through aircraft structures to reach fuel tanks,
or to inflict structural damage.  Once again, it was with wing hits that the
mine shell was most dangerous.

Cheers,

Tony Williams

Author: "Rapid Fire: The Development of Automatic Cannon,
Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces"

Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/

[Staga]

http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/mk108blenheim.jpg" TARGET=_blank>Yep....

[Karnak]

Tony,

I bought a copy of your book.  Neat stuff.

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[StSanta]

Ah Tony, so the Minengeschoss would e as potent as the Hispano.

I'd like to see this in Aces High  .

I can hear the allies crying already, as they TOO experience the wonder of 2 pings wing gone  

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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[juzz]

What I don't get is that the Germans figured one 50mm would be enough to kill a 4/e bomber, yet these two shots show the results of a direct hit from a 88mm...
 
 

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by juzz:
What I don't get is that the Germans figured one 50mm would be enough to kill a 4/e bomber, yet these two shots show the results of a direct hit from a 88mm...

I don't see the pictures.
I assume that in the pictures 88mm hasn't made big hole right?

That is because the shell has just flown through, not exploded.
88 shells had time fuse, not contact fuse, like there would be in 50mm.

If 88mm would explode right on contact or very close, it would be almost certain death to four engined bomber.

[MANDOBLE]

I saw some footage filmed from a B17 with another B17 getting an almost direct 88 hit, breaking in half (rear half from the wing root to the tail virtually dissapeared) and going down in flames.

I have no evidence of 20mm mine shell usage in AH 151/20s, except for the comments (perhaps only opinions) of some players afirming they are used in conjunction with AP.

The fact is that hispano shells are noticeably more effective than 151/20 for any range.

In my own experience, I need to lit up in excess any target with 190 guns (ony guns) to cause critical damage while a pair of Spit gun hits is more than enough to kill any fighter.


Ammo modeling in AH is still a mistery for me. And for those who want to do some test, go offline, get close to the drones, and start firing bullet by bullet at them with hispano and 151/20, you'll see the difference.

As an additional experience, do the same test with the new Ki guns and compare it to the 151/20 also. The Ki guns are extremelly effective.

[Vermillion]

Remember guys, Tony is discussing one Mine shell versus one Hispano HE shell.  

AH represents historical mixed ammunition belts, where the Mine shell was used in quantities of 1 in 3, up to 1 in 5.

Player tests have shown that its almost certain that Mine shells are included in that ratio in AH. That or the German standard HE shells are too powerful.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[SageFIN]

These player tests consisted of shooting at hangars, didn't they? Well that's exactly what they are good for, showing that German ammo damages hangars well that is.

Unless these players have very deep knowledge of how the damage modelling of AH functions, you cannot draw any conclusions from these tests as in what comes to damage vs aircraft.

Also it would be interesting to have some cross comparisons between AP(I), HE and mine ammo. I am mostly interested in how HE and mine shells fare against AP ammo (vs fighters).

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SageFIN

"It´s your god.
They´re your rules.
You go to hell."
---

[Vermillion]

Sounds great SageFin, why don't you go conduct that kind of testing and come back and report the results and testing methods too us?

Because the Luftwaffe contingent consistently doesn't like the results of the testing done to date, and squeak about its not being representative. But everytime someone suggests that they go out and do some improved testing, the Luftwaffles become strangely quiet on the subject.

PS: I do have a pretty good idea of how the damage model works.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Pongo]

Juzz
Those are the two planes in the war that survived a direct hit from an 88. Probably a faulty one that didnt fuze right.
The other 99.9999999 % of the aircraft were participants in the LW recycle drive.

[Tony Williams]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:
Tony,

I bought a copy of your book.  Neat stuff.

Glad you like it.  Don't forget to check my website from time to time for updates on the book.

Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Because the Luftwaffe contingent consistently doesn't like the results of the testing done to date, and squeak about its not being representative.

1 - If I want to know the pros & cons of a Spit I'm not going to ask to a Ju88 expert driver.

2 - Better dont believe in somebody else tests and test the planes yourself, as I do.

Sincerely Verm, when I talk about 190 performance or 151/20 I'm not talking with their air force of origin in mind as you seems to suspect, it is simply another plane into the planeset, as P51 or La5.

[juzz]

Assume that the Minengeschoss in modelled in the "mixed belt" of ammo.

Since each individual hit has the effect of (for example) 1/5th of the total effect of a 5 round mix(2xMine + 2xHE/I + 1xAP/I) - you see that even if the Minengeschoss shell IS modelled in AH, it can't possibly have the proper damage effect...  

[Vermillion]

Mandoble, thats exactly my point.  I have seen one good "in game" test of the different weapons in AH to date.  And when people start to talk about weapons, me and several others will reference that test.  

Some people always complain that the test is wrong (they never really explain how), but are unwilling to do any testing themselves.

My point is that if someone think the tests are wrong or incorrect, then go do some testing and show the rest of the community their results.

What irritates me however, is that the people who complain the longest and the loudest about the weapons modeling, and how the "in game" tests are wrong, are not willing to do any work to themselves. They would rather just complain and put the blame elsewhere.

Juzz, I would have to go back and look at the numbers again, but I seem to remember that if the Mine shell is NOT included then the MG151 was too powerful.



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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure