Updated ENY values for Planes

[Shuffler]

We are watching.........

[thorsim]

i never could get anyone to give me a good reason why the 190-As or Ds are out turned by a pony, any pony ...

curious is that both planes with full flaps deployed or just the pony?

as i understand it you can't consider the a8 because it is not representative of any real a8
(unless i misunderstood)

Yes it is true. For instance with no flaps the pony outturns the a5 by a small margin.. not  "easily" at all.
Under full flaps, the A5 outturns the pony. The same is true for the D9
As I said

This statement is true.

I didn't consider the F8, only because it is rarely flown

[Wmaker]

Yes it is true. For instance with no flaps the pony outturns the a5 by a small margin.. not  "easily" at all.
Under full flaps, the A5 outturns the pony. The same is true for the D9
As I said

This statement is true.

I didn't consider the F8, only because it is rarely flown

Rarely flown is relative, at times I see F-8s quite a bit. P-51D out turns the Me-262 aswell.

While what you said may be true on the deck regarding the Dora and A-5 I personally considered a banking turn where the turn is entered from somewhat fighter-like cruising speeds, not with landing speeds with flaps already down. Of course one can throttle back during the turn and try to get the 190s flaps fully down but that has very little to do with practicality. Also as the alt where the turning is taking place increases, the speeds increase and the full flaps of the 190 won't come down at all. So even if what you say is true on the deck, it's very quickly untrue as alt increases. One thing that also affects this is the fuel loads. When using fuel loads that give the both palnes the same flight time/range it comes even more difficult for the 190s.

Be as it may, saying that 190A-8 is the only fighter in AH that P-51D out turns, is false.

[BnZs]

i never could get anyone to give me a good reason why the 190-As or Ds are out turned by a pony, any pony ...

A wingloading of 48 lbs. per square foot at typical combat loadings for the D9 vrs. 39 lbs per square foot.

[thorsim]

not sure i agree with your numbers but i wont quibble since it is not much more than 20% either way ...

the thing is i believe the dora does better than that %age in both power and lift loading vs the pony, and weight, and acceleration (you can correct me if your sources differ than mine) ...

and the a5 should have advantages in all these areas just mentioned ...

my point is the only distinct aerodynamic advantage is in roll rate, and that goes to the 190 at turning speeds.

yet in these games the relative turn rates are so poor for the 190s that it is very difficult to exploit it's roll rate advantage much. 

i don't have CFS is it different there ?

 

[BnZs]

not sure i agree with your numbers but i wont quibble since it is not much more than 20% either way ...

the thing is i believe the dora does better than that %age in both power and lift loading vs the pony, and weight, and acceleration (you can correct me if your sources differ than mine) ...

and the a5 should have advantages in all these areas just mentioned ...

my point is the only distinct aerodynamic advantage is in roll rate, and that goes to the 190 at turning speeds.

yet in these games the relative turn rates are so poor for the 190s that it is very difficult to exploit it's roll rate advantage much.  

i don't have CFS is it different there ?

 

The numbers I give are for when the Pony vs. D9 are for 50% vs 100% fuel. This is the "fairest" fuel loading comparison you can get, the Pony still having more time on MIL at this loading than the D9. 48 vs. 39 lbs vs. 48 lbs is a *huge* difference in wingloading. At 75% for both, it is 41vs 45, still a very large difference. 75% for the Pony means full wing-tanks, and a mostly empty AUX...IOW, typical engaging weight.

 What you should asking is not why the Pony outturns the Dora, but why the Pony at 50% (39 lbs/foot) and the 190 A-5 (43 lbs/foot) are both badly out-turned by the P-47D-11(43lbs/foot), even without flaps.

The D9 does out-climb and out-accelerate the Pony. The A5 also has a powerloading advantage, but does not out-accelerate the Pony at low levels, even though it does outclimb it there. This could have something to do with drag, since our A-5 is also apparently about 8-12mph too slow at sea level.

[boomerlu]

The A5 also has a powerloading advantage, but does not out-accelerate the Pony at low levels, even though it does outclimb it there.

What do you mean power loading? Never heard the term before - you mean thrust/weight?

[uptown]

(Image removed from quote.)

We are watching.........

lmao  where did ya pick that up at? Now everyone will want a spinning globe in their sig.

[BnZs]

What do you mean power loading? Never heard the term before - you mean thrust/weight?

Yup

[Steve]

Rarely flown is relative, at times I see F-8s quite a bit. P-51D out turns the Me-262 aswell.


Be as it may, saying that 190A-8 is the only fighter in AH that P-51D out turns, is false.

You've only used part of my assertion and I will not allow you to do that so your juvenile mind can think it won an argument. I'm simply unwilling to put up with such tardish behavior.

The pony will out turn a couple of others, under specific circumstances.

I said this and it's correct.   And you are a damned liar if you say you see F8's quite a bit.  Rarely flown is not relative. The f8 is rarely flown, period.  I will not suffer fools, and you are one.

The other part of my statement was

The a8 is perhaps the only fighter the 51D out turns.

   

[Wmaker]

You've only used part of my assertion and I will not allow you to do that so your juvenile mind can think it won an argument. I'm simply unwilling to put up with such tardish behavior.

I said this and it's correct.   And you are a damned liar if you say you see F8's quite a bit.  Rarely flown is not relative. The f8 is rarely flown, period.  I will not suffer fools, and you are one.

The other part of my statement was
    

Just, wow!

[thorsim]

i still am not jiving with your #s are they from the game or outside sources?  i will look around later. 

i am pretty sure the fighter 190s were all lighter than the pony at any stage of load out, the dora being the heaviest, not sure about the in game a8 as it is not an actual representation(or so i am told).

i will look around but even adjusting for fuel this information has the dora (again the heaviest of the fighter 190 variants) 20% ahead of the pony in two of three categories most discussed when considering turn performance.  what that equates to in turn rate/radius i don't know for sure but it in no way shows me that the pony should have any kind of advantage what so ever. 

Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang


Fw-190 D-9 Statistics:

Engine: Junkers Jumo 213A1 with MW-50 boost.
Power: 2,240 HP.
Max. Speed: 704 km/h. (438 mph.)
Max. Climb: 1110 m/min (3,642 ft/min.)
Empty Weight: 3,490 kg. (7,694 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 4,293 kg. (9,464 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 4,839 kg. (10,670 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 10.50 m. (34.4 ft.)
Wing-Area: 18.3 sq.m. (197 sq.ft.)
Armament: 2x 13mm HMG's (MG 131) & 2x 20mm cannons (MG 151/20).

Fw-190 D-9 Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-loading *Loaded*: 234.59 kg/sq.m. (48 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 6.02.
Airfoil: NACA 23015.3 - NACA 23009.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 15.3%  Tip= 9% .
Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.52 .

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 154.33 kg/sq.m. (31.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 1.91 kg/hp. (4.22 lbs/hp.)

Fw-190 D-9 Additional features:

-Bubble-canopy & Flettner Tabs.
-Inclined seat position for better G-load resistance & "Kommandogerat".


P-51D Mustang Statistics:

Engine: Packard Merlin V-1650-7.
Power: 1,790 HP.
Max.Speed: 703 km/h (437mph).
Max. Climb: 1011 m/min. (3,320 ft/min)
Empty Weight: 3,466 kg. (7,641 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 5,034 kg. (11,100 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 5,489 kg. (12,100 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 11.3 m. (37.07 ft.)
Wing-Area: 21.64 sq.m. (233 sq.ft.)
Armament: 6x .50 cal HMG's (M2).

P-51D Mustang Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-Loading *Loaded*: 232.62 kg/sq.m. (47.6 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 5.81 .
Airfoil: "Laminar" NAA/NACA 45-100 - NAA/NACA 45-100.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.8 or 15% Tip= 12%.
Wing CL-max: 1.28 .

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 181.73 kg/sq.m. (37.18 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 2.81 kg/hp. (6.2 lbs/hp.)

P-51D Mustang Additional features:

-Laminar wing & Tear-shaped canopy.
-Gyro-Gunsight.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Aerodynamic Facts:

Airfoil Thickness Ratio - Higher is better.
Airfoil CL-max - Higher is better.
Wing Aspect Ratio - Higher is better.

Lift-loading - Lower is better.
Power-loading - Lower is better.

Wing Aspect ratio info:
High aspect ratio wings have long spans (like high performance gliders), while low aspect ratio wings have either short spans (like the F-16 fighter) or thick chords (like the Space Shuttle). There is a component of the drag of an aircraft called induced drag which depends inversely on the aspect ratio. A higher aspect ratio wing has a lower drag and a higher lift than a lower aspect ratio wing. All else being equal, the higher the wing aspect ratio, the higher the wing Cl-max is also going to be.

Laminar wing info:
Laminar flow wings lowered the drag, but this came at the cost of lower lift, especially under high G loads. A Laminar flow wing will stall earlier and more violently than a conventional wing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------   

so like i said you may have a slight advantage in wing loading but you are losing in the other two categories are much heavier and have a known significant roll rate disadvantage ...

feel free to check these numbers, i will be looking into yours ...

+S+

t

The numbers I give are for when the Pony vs. D9 are for 50% vs 100% fuel. This is the "fairest" fuel loading comparison you can get, the Pony still having more time on MIL at this loading than the D9. 48 vs. 39 lbs vs. 48 lbs is a *huge* difference in wingloading. At 75% for both, it is 41vs 45, still a very large difference. 75% for the Pony means full wing-tanks, and a mostly empty AUX...IOW, typical engaging weight.

 What you should asking is not why the Pony outturns the Dora, but why the Pony at 50% (39 lbs/foot) and the 190 A-5 (43 lbs/foot) are both badly out-turned by the P-47D-11(43lbs/foot), even without flaps.

The D9 does out-climb and out-accelerate the Pony. The A5 also has a powerloading advantage, but does not out-accelerate the Pony at low levels, even though it does outclimb it there. This could have something to do with drag, since our A-5 is also apparently about 8-12mph too slow at sea level.

[BnZs]

I've seen that before. The only way to get a 48 lbs per foot wingloading out of a P-51D is full fuel *and* drop tanks.

Since the aft tank was burned down first (and it can be documented that it was sometimes left unfilled, even in combinations with drop tanks on shorter range missions), and the drop tanks were, well, dropped, this is deliberately misleading. Considering the source that originally posted these numbers, this is not surprising.

[BnZs]

I've heard different things quoted for the P-51D Clmax actually. Dead simple way to compare basic lift loading is to compare 1g stall speeds. P-51 is usually stated to stall at 100mph clean, the P-47D at 105 clean, and Brown gives us 127mph clean for the 190 he tested(A4?). Accelerated stall speed is equal to the square root of the G load times the 1g stall speed. Lets figure for 8gs, the P-51D's limit and a pretty heavy load for a non-G-suited pilot. Square root of 8 is ~2.8, so that gives us 280mph for the Pony, which jives pretty well, since its corner speed is usually quoted as 270mph, but *with one notch of flaps*. 2.8 times 127 by contrast is 355. Lets say that the plane Brown was testing was not quite right in some way, and reduce the stall speed to 110. That still gives us 308mph. So I don't think there can be any doubt the P-51 *should* have an advantage in instantaneous turn rate. According to Shaw and others, sustained turn *radius* is so closely related to the minimum speed an aircraft can fly that the P-51 would almost surely have the smaller sustained radius here. That leaves sustained turn rate, which can be influenced by things like power loading and lift/drag ratio. The D9's power might be a help here...and indeed  according to Mosq's data, both the P-51D and D9 have an identical sustained turn rate with no flaps, 18.3 d/s.

[thorsim]

says loaded clean on the weights ...

are you forgetting ammo?