Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: vonKrimm on October 01, 2009, 03:07:11 PM
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WTG ya'll! :salute
Will really make EW more competative now that Hurri2c-horde-tards will be less frequent. :aok
BTW, I don't know if it escaped my attention before or is part of the OCT. 1st ENY change, but the OBJ values are different now too. I also approve of this change.
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Yup, on average, the ENY fits the planes much better now.
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Is it all arenas ?
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Yay!
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No announcement about this anywhere? :confused:
Edit:
Just checked the arena, and it's true! Some changes I noticed:
P-51D = 5
P-47N = 10
109G-14 = 25
190A-8 = 25
Typhoon = 8
Ki-84 = 20
P-38L has lower ENY than P-38J
...and others I didn't notice.
Thank you HTC! I really appreciate your giving ENY values some attention.
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cool :aok
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The announcement is in the arena MOTD.
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P-51D ENY 5 :(
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The changes to the N-Jug, Ta-152, and P-38 ENY are sensible and long over-due. Thank you.
P-51D ENY 5 :(
Yes, the airplane which even its most successful exponent describes as mediocre for LW has had its ENY lowered to 5, while the La7's ENY has been *raised* to 8!!! That is right folks, the P-51D now has a lower ENY than an airplane that is decidedly faster, has a much better t/w, and turns vastly better at typical MA alts. This is like having the ENY of the F4U-4 be lower than that of the P-47N. The 109 K4, an airplane that is by all objective standards verging on needing a perk, has its ENY remain at 20 while the very fine LW ride the G-14 has had its ENY raised to 25...the same league as 190-A5s and D-Jugs!!! The 190D9, an aircraft which consistently gets the highest k/d amongst non-perked aircraft month to month, has seen its ENY remain at 15. So in all honesty, I think we're in one-step forward, two-steps back territory with the ENY.
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Awesome!
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Also a few more,
N1k2= eny 8.
TA152= eny 10.
LA7= eny 8.
190a8 eny same as the a5.... :huh
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P-38 ENY 15 :x
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190a8 eny same as the a5.... :huh
Makes sense to me.
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P-38 ENY 15 :x
gotta be the badass skins in the J vs the discoball L. Makes sense when drinking heavily.
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Bombers have different OBJ values too. Anyone noticed any changes to GVs?
Really happy with the new ENY, that's great!
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I agree with BnZ. I'm all for ENY changes but some of these seem a bit whacked. Particularly the uber 109K4. Climbs like a rocket and has 30mm gun that kills in one shot.
The 51D on the other hand was the standard US fighter for 1944 for crying out loud. It's rare for a 51D to get a one pass kill unless your firing parameters are perfect and at close range. It doesn't lead the pack in any category of performance and has anemic guns compared to cannon. How does it become a 5!!!?
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(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:0QCDYZQjFdHSkM:http://simplex.blaogy.com/gallery/326/pinky%26brain1.jpg)
My years-long campaign has succeeded! The P47N has rightfully assumed its place as a double-digit eny ride! (I am now free to continue my plan for world domination)
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Wtg on the new Punkstang eny!! :aok
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LOL at whines about a 5 ENY P-51D.
It is the most used aircraft in AH, after all. So a 5 ENY makes sense. Might help balance the arenas and promote more variety in choices of rides.
*ducks*
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The changes to the N-Jug, Ta-152, and P-38 ENY are sensible and long over-due. Thank you.
Yes, the airplane which even its most successful exponent describes as mediocre for LW has had its ENY lowered to 5, while the La7's ENY has been *raised* to 8!!! That is right folks, the P-51D now has a lower ENY than an airplane that is decidedly faster, has a much better t/w, and turns vastly better at typical MA alts. This is like having the ENY of the F4U-4 be lower than that of the P-47N. The 109 K4, an airplane that is by all objective standards verging on needing a perk, has its ENY remain at 20 while the very fine LW ride the G-14 has had its ENY raised to 25...the same league as 190-A5s and D-Jugs!!! The 190D9, an aircraft which consistently gets the highest k/d amongst non-perked aircraft month to month, has seen its ENY remain at 15. So in all honesty, I think we're in one-step forward, two-steps back territory with the ENY.
If its better, then by proxy, you shouldnt give a rats %$%^ that its harder to get a 51D now, the LA is better to fly!............................. .Right?
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If its better, then by proxy, you shouldnt give a rats %$%^ that its harder to get a 51D now, the LA is better to fly!............................. .Right?
Yes, I should not give a crap about fairness or logic in the ENY system. Good argument!
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LOL at whines about a 5 ENY P-51D.
It is the most used aircraft in AH, after all. So a 5 ENY makes sense. Might help balance the arenas and promote more variety in choices of rides.
*ducks*
Boy, what a terrible argument...a plane that climbs poorly, turns poorly, has mediocre lethality, and good (but not the best) speed, deserves 5 ENY for what boils down to no reason but that every nooblet has heard of it?
If 90% of the arena chose to flew the P-51D, it would not adversely effect anyone who chose to fly almost *anything* else...because 95% of the plane set stands an even or better chance in a dogfight with the Pony with equally skilled pilots.
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The P38L carries a very good amount of ord while being able to climb rather well regardless of the extra weight. It is the most capable P38, IMO and deserves the better ENY.
The P51D... I thought 8 was about right. But, the jury is still out on this one. The jury is still out on the La7 and george getting bumped up to 8 as well. I'm not suer how they both were given some padding when neither needed it.
The P47N up to 10... way to go. Nicely done. and to think at one time this flying school bus was perked. ditto on the Ta152.
I am surprised that the 109K-4 didnt get reduced to 15 or even 12. It is fast, climbs like a fart on a cold day, and produces one shot kills.
The best improvement in the new ENY scores: the 190A-8. I always had a tough time understanding how it could ever have had a 31 ENY score. It can muster the most firepower of any single engine fighter w/ dual 30mm, dual 20mm, and dual 13mm, or quad 20mm and dual 13mm, etc. Combine that with the 500kg (1100lbs) bomb and it is one devistating attack package.
Final thoughts to ponder... there seems to be, with very few exceptions, intervals of *5* between the levels of aircraft ENY. Just curious as to why there are not more 3, 9, 13, 18, 22, 28, 32, etc, ENY ranked aircraft.
Regarding the OBJ scores... perhaps another thred? :)
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I like that ostie has higher eny than wirb now. :aok
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I'm baffled at the LA-7 changes. For real...the plane's a monster, and should be perked, not raised in ENY...
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Makes sense to me.
A8 seems alot "heavier" and just doesn't seem to be able to maneuver like the a5. (I suppose the heavier gun package may make up for this?)
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A8 seems alot "heavier" and just doesn't seem to be able to maneuver like the a5. (I suppose the heavier gun package may make up for this?)
It is, and it can't. I imagine that the reason for the equality in ENY is the far better gun package on the A8.
On those occasions when I've been into the MAs and flown an A8, I've found that it's a lot more effective than it is when you're flying it 1 v 1. Pursuers often won't follow you on your first break, and it's much easier to sneak up on targets.
- oldman
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Comparing P-51D to other planes that are called Fast, without using perked rides, the Pony outruns/climbs them most of the time.
This test is done using what I typically hear as "fast planes", since I don't go to LW often (If someone from LW knows better comparison planes I'll check those) it doesn't affect me either way. I'm taking no one side here, simply showing it's not as slow or bad a climber as people make it out to be, and the .50 cals are plenty lethal, but certainly they aren't as much so as the 20mms or 30mms. Also have to count in it's Ord/Fuel loadout compared to an LA-7.
This is all off memory, so correct where wrong please.
Pony: 2,000lbs of Bombs, or 2x DTs adding a good amount of fuel, 6x Rockets (6 right?) and 6x .50s with about 1000 ammo? Has about 60mins fuel?
LA-7: 200KG of bombs, no Rockets or DTs and about 20mins fuel?
Charts:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=44&pw=0>ype=0)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=42&pw=0>ype=0)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=21&pw=0>ype=0)
Climb:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=44&pw=0>ype=2)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=42&pw=0>ype=2)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=21&pw=0>ype=2)
So it's not the best, but it does have a decent standing in performance to have a possible 5 ENY. An argument needs facts, I'm simply supplying them, you may now continue on the argument about the ENY.
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I agree with BnZ. I'm all for ENY changes but some of these seem a bit whacked. Particularly the uber 109K4. Climbs like a rocket and has 30mm gun that kills in one shot.
The 51D on the other hand was the standard US fighter for 1944 for crying out loud. It's rare for a 51D to get a one pass kill unless your firing parameters are perfect and at close range. It doesn't lead the pack in any category of performance and has anemic guns compared to cannon. How does it become a 5!!!?
Oh Rap, you wound me so!! Why must you campaign against my beloved Kurfurst? How has it wounded you so that you feel the desire, nay, the obligation to disparage her reputation in such a heartless manner? Oh the Humanity!!
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That's the only one I have a small, very small, issue with........ 29 maybe, but the A5 has the better moves by far.
A8 seems alot "heavier" and just doesn't seem to be able to maneuver like the a5. (I suppose the heavier gun package may make up for this?)
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I agree about the 109K-4 ENY. Maybe it would have made more sense to lower the K-4 to 15 and leave the G-14 at 20. But since neither of these aircraft are as popular as some other rides, I'm not going to sweat it.
As for the P-51D ENY, keep things in perspective. The P-51B will still be available almost all of the time, and if you really want to fly the P-51D that much when the sides are uneven, you can always switch chess pieces.
As for the P-51D's capabilities, it's a fantastic energy fighter that's quite dominating with only a decent stick at the controls, able to engage and disengage at will. I get 1 pass kills with it frequently, and at range.
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You posted all these charts without WEP...how deliberately and maliciously deceptive can you get? :rofl :rofl Further, the D9, Typhoon, and La7 all typically rack up a higher k/d than the Pony most tours.
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As for the P-51D's capabilities, it's a fantastic energy fighter that's quite dominating with only a decent stick at the controls, able to engage and disengage at will. I get 1 pass kills with it frequently, and at range.
A fantastic energy fighter? What game have you been playing Anax? Its thrust/weight is lower than that almost any other LW plane. Nor does it retain E exceptionally well in turns like a 152, nor does it have the torquelessness advantage of the 38 in the vertical, and as for its zoom climb, it is demonstrable that the P-51D zooms no better and no worse than most any other single-engine plane co-speed. So what exactly qualifies it as a "fantastic E fighter?", tell me my friend? Simultaneously it is inferior to everything in angles except the 190 family. Its only quality that is even impressive by LW standards is speed, and even there it slower than the unperked 190D9, La7, Typhoon, 109K4, with the P-47N and Yak only a tick behind.
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You posted all these charts without WEP...how deliberately and maliciously deceptive can you get? :rofl :rofl Further, the D9, Typhoon, and La7 all typically rack up a higher k/d than the Pony most tours.
I didn't realize WEP was that important, I only use it when I really need to get somewhere fast. However if you wish for WEP:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=44&pw=1>ype=0)(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=42&pw=1>ype=0)(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=21&pw=1>ype=0)
Climb:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=44&pw=1>ype=2)(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=42&pw=1>ype=2)(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=21&pw=1>ype=2)
So, yes, it gets its butt handed to it by WEP in those planes, but I didn't think people went around running WEP their entire flight. I'm just throwing facts in here, so I'm taking no sides as far as the ENY for the plane.
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You forgot the Kurfurst...
The amount of action in the MA is inversely proportional to the altitude, 0-12K being the most vital 12-15K being much rarer, anything over 20K is almost unheard of. So, you have demonstrated that there are multiple unperked planes that are as fast or faster than the PonyD throughought much or all of the important band of altitudes for the MA, and all of them except the D9 are more maneuverable, and all of them except the Typhoon demonstrate a superior climb rate in that band. Despite these facts, the highest ENY value is assigned to the P-51D. This make sense to anyone?
I didn't realize WEP was that important, I only use it when I really need to get somewhere fast. However if you wish for WEP:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=44&pw=1>ype=0)(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=42&pw=1>ype=0)(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=21&pw=1>ype=0)
Climb:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=44&pw=1>ype=2)(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=42&pw=1>ype=2)(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=21&pw=1>ype=2)
So, yes, it gets its butt handed to it by WEP in those planes, but I didn't think people went around running WEP their entire flight. I'm just throwing facts in here, so I'm taking no sides as far as the ENY for the plane.
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I agree about the 109K-4 ENY. Maybe it would have made more sense to lower the K-4 to 15 and leave the G-14 at 20.
That would have been my proposal too. 109G-14 with ENY 25 now in same league with FW 190A5 and A8 and just little better than 109F-4 & G-2? Not really, I think.
G-14 at 20 and K-4 (best climber and fastest prop plane in game from 8-24k!) at 15 would have been a bit more reasonable to me.
I do like the changes to P-47N, Ta 152, 190A-8, Wirbelwind/Ostwind. And, of course, the Hurri II C in EW.
I'm quite surprised about the P-51D, La-7, N1K and Ki-84 adjustments.
I'm disappointed about XiV still being perked, and the still quite unbalanced perk value ratio between Firefly and Tiger.
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Learn to fly and stick with just one high eny ride.. And you never have to worry about eny values... :D
<S>...-Gixer
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Learn to fly and stick with just one high eny ride.. And you never have to worry about eny values... :D
<S>...-Gixer
Gixer, you flying on the Soviet Side of the next scenario?
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Gixer, you flying on the Soviet Side of the next scenario?
Unfortunately due to time zone difference and weekend commitments means I'm out of scenarios.
<S>...-Gixer
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LA-5 went to 25ENY, and Spit mk.5 upped to 30. Landed a few kills in both rides earlier today :aok
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The changes to the N-Jug, Ta-152, and P-38 ENY are sensible and long over-due. Thank you.
Yes, the airplane which even its most successful exponent describes as mediocre for LW has had its ENY lowered to 5, while the La7's ENY has been *raised* to 8!!! That is right folks, the P-51D now has a lower ENY than an airplane that is decidedly faster, has a much better t/w, and turns vastly better at typical MA alts. This is like having the ENY of the F4U-4 be lower than that of the P-47N. The 109 K4, an airplane that is by all objective standards verging on needing a perk, has its ENY remain at 20 while the very fine LW ride the G-14 has had its ENY raised to 25...the same league as 190-A5s and D-Jugs!!! The 190D9, an aircraft which consistently gets the highest k/d amongst non-perked aircraft month to month, has seen its ENY remain at 15. So in all honesty, I think we're in one-step forward, two-steps back territory with the ENY.
Perhaps they considered more things than just speed, t/w and turning ability. Possibly range, ord carrying capability and other factors played into the decision.
I'm not saying I agree with this particular change or not but don't post biased arguments based on the limited numer of factors that you view as important (or that you believe the gullible will blindly accept to support your argument). This is the "perk the Spit XVI" argument all over again. How about posting your argument with all factors considered and tested (i.e. speed at varying alts, turn radius and turn rate at various alts, roll rate, gun package, gun duration, ord capability, climb rate at various alts, range...) There's more to a plane than speed and turning capability. If there wasn't we wouldn't be cursing RV-8's with 20mm cannons or sharks with freaking lazer beams on their heads.
BTW, the LA-7 isn't "decidedly faster" at all alts.
:salute
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Whats an LA7?
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I didn't realize WEP was that important, I only use it when I really need to get somewhere fast.
WEP always matter when your comparting against LW planes. 190's and 109's WEP last so long it is most often in use for the duration of the fight when at full throttle.
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I skimmed the thread so I apologize if it's come up, but the one factor that seems to be absent from the discussion so far is the load carrying ability of the aircraft and what potential that may have. True the 51D is not the best at typical MA altitudes, but it can sling 2000lbs of bombs under it's wings, something the la7, and 190D can't do.
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The changes to the N-Jug, Ta-152, and P-38 ENY are sensible and long over-due. Thank you.
Yes, the airplane which even its most successful exponent describes as mediocre for LW has had its ENY lowered to 5, while the La7's ENY has been *raised* to 8!!! That is right folks, the P-51D now has a lower ENY than an airplane that is decidedly faster, has a much better t/w, and turns vastly better at typical MA alts. This is like having the ENY of the F4U-4 be lower than that of the P-47N. The 109 K4, an airplane that is by all objective standards verging on needing a perk, has its ENY remain at 20 while the very fine LW ride the G-14 has had its ENY raised to 25...the same league as 190-A5s and D-Jugs!!! The 190D9, an aircraft which consistently gets the highest k/d amongst non-perked aircraft month to month, has seen its ENY remain at 15. So in all honesty, I think we're in one-step forward, two-steps back territory with the ENY.
ENY is primarily based on that thing you dismiss as meaningless, usage. We have argued about that before and I continue to think you undervalue it, no, I think you completely dismiss it.
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you can always switch chess pieces.
Bingo!
They can put ENY at whatever they deem necessary, so long as you're willing to change countries it will never affect you.
(now they just have to put zone ENY into affect so you can't have 30+ guys attacking and undefended airfield)
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WEP always matter when your comparting against LW planes. 190's and 109's WEP last so long it is most often in use for the duration of the fight when at full throttle.
odd...
my flights tend to last longer than 10 min...
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odd...
my flights tend to last longer than 10 min...
He said "Fight" not "Flight"
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Imo a lot of the changes were for the better but there are still some inconsistencies:
109K4 should be Eny 15, G14 20
Ki84 shouldn't have moved up to 20. (15 is fine but I would have advocated 10 before 20)
Mossie moves from 25-30? Bizarre change there, I would have moved Mossie to 20-23 or left it alone.
P38L 15, P38J 20 now? The planes are too similar for a 5 disparity, maybe P38L 18 at the lowest.
190D9 is still 15. I think that one should have been moved down to 10.
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He said "Fight" not "Flight"
oops.
my bad.
sarcastic retort retracted.
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ENY is primarily based on that thing you dismiss as meaningless, usage. We have argued about that before and I continue to think you undervalue it, no, I think you completely dismiss it.
<cough> Ta-152 <cough> Bump it to 15! :D
Otherwise I think it's clear that these ENY changes do reflect the use of aircraft. Whether or not you agree with ENY based on popularity is a different matter. I may not think it's the ideal approach, but I'm still happy to see some kind of attention and system being applied to ENY value assignment.
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Edit: As for the 190D-9, three factors affect it negatively that aren't getting enough attention: 1) Its short range usually requires the use of a drop tank, which degrades its top speed by about 5mph. 2) Its weapon ballistics and inferior over-the-nose view make aiming more difficult than the P-51D. 3) It hates AoA.
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If 90% of the arena chose to flew the P-51D, it would not adversely effect anyone who chose to fly almost *anything* else...because 95% of the plane set stands an even or better chance in a dogfight with the Pony with equally skilled pilots.
Doesn't 75% of the LW arenas already fly the 51D??
And maybe 95% of the plane set WOULD stand an even or better chance in a (choke) dogfight with a punkstang if they could only find more than a handful of guys who will actually "fight" in it.
I wish they would have perked the damn "locust" plane!
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Doesn't 75% of the LW arenas already fly the 51D??
No.
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I'm baffled at the LA-7 changes. For real...the plane's a monster, and should be perked, not raised in ENY...
i agree 100%
I think that was a mistake.
The niki as well. It will be used more now in the NOE hordeling base caps
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Hey i love the new setup......as a rook we are used to eny in the 10 to 20 range this will help us rule the world a little faster!! :aok
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Perhaps they considered more things than just speed, t/w and turning ability. Possibly range, ord carrying capability and other factors played into the decision.
Maneuverability and t/w are the two factors that play the most part in winning fights. Speed is good to have as well, but it doesn't win fights so much as allow one to choose fights. The factors of roll rate and lethality come somewhere below these factors, but note, the P-51D doesn't shine here either.
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ENY is primarily based on that thing you dismiss as meaningless, usage. We have argued about that before and I continue to think you undervalue it, no, I think you completely dismiss it.
That is because basing ENY values on whatever the History channel has been hyping lately is in fact meaningless, useless.
Though the changed ENYs are apparently not based on some esoteric combination of usage and k/d, else it would be hard to explain the rise in the ENY of La7, N1K, or even P-47N for that matter.
BTW Karnak, recently had a chance to read "Startide Rising", "Sundiver" and the "Uplift War" as well. Brin write anymore in that series?
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i agree 100%
I think that was a mistake.
The niki as well. It will be used more now in the NOE hordeling base caps
I've actually got to agree with the N1K change. For all its firepower, it is a 325mph airplane in the LW arena. No one likes being vulched or HO'ed, but that can be done with any airplane. You can't regulate the tactics players choose to use through the ENY system.
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Maneuverability and t/w are the two factors that play the most part in winning fights. Speed is good to have as well, but it doesn't win fights so much as allow one to choose fights. The factors of roll rate and lethality come somewhere below these factors, but note, the P-51D doesn't shine here either.
Your line of argument is inline with why the spit 16 is ENY 5.
The Pony is just an all around darn good freaking airplane. You have indicated it doesn't particularly shine is one area (i disagree here btw, how about e retention or dive) but is better then average in most.
Well, that's the same story for the spit 16, and its ENY is 5.
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The Pony is just an all around darn good freaking airplane. You have indicated it doesn't particularly shine is one area (i disagree here btw, how about e retention or dive) but is better then average in most.
Well, that's the same story for the spit 16, and its ENY is 5.
This is just not factual.
The only worse-turning family of airplanes are the 190s.
Its climb rate is below average for late-war.
Its gun package is the definition of middle of the road, and it has less ammo duration with its .50s than its fellows, the Corsair,
Jug, and P-38.
But you are correct it can dive to the deck and run away rather well. As long as no La7s, D9s, or Typhoons are around. All hail the all conquering Pony!..wait... :rolleyes:
It is not a good analog for the SpitXVI...the XVI is excellent in every mark *except* top speed, where it is merely mediocre. The Pony by contrast is excellent in top speed and poor to mediocre everywhere else. A better analog for the SpitXVI would be the D9, which is good to excellent everywhere *except* turning ability. Yet it's ENY remains at 15...bizarre.
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While the Pee-51D may not be worthy of ENY 5 from a pure A2A perspective, as soon as you take A2G into the equation, things change dramatically. Basically there is no other plane that can haul 2000 lbs of ords to the target faster and get out almost unmolested due to its speed.
The La7 may be a better fighter (at ow to medium alts), but it's almost useless in A2G.
The N1K may be as good as the D-Pony in A2G, but it's a 325 mph bird...for five minutes, after that > 315 mph...
The 47N can haul ord as well and fast as the Pony, but once WEP is out - it's just another slow Jug...
From that perspective, it's understandable that the 51D gets a lower ENY than those three other planes.
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I don't really care one way or the other, I fly the A8 unless heavy, then its a 38 or even an A5. If I ever fly a Stang it is typically the B model to go whack a few GV's in town, and I only have it up for a min or two.
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KI84 a 20! what? KI84 should be the same as the spit8, in a fight they are neck and neck. A hog has a hard fight vs a ki84 so why is a hog a lower eny? I consider the ki84 one of the most deadly planes in the game, great climb, great turn, Great roll, Great Wep, good speed, good guns, dive sucks but that is it. Dive sucks on the p38l but its a 15, in every other aspect ki out preforms the 38L and Hogs.
Skyhawk
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KI84 a 20 what? KI84 should be the same as the spit8, in a fight they are neck and neck. a hog has a hard fight vs a ki84 so why is a hog a lower eny? I consider the ki84 on of the most deadly planes in the game.
Skyhawk
Dive a 84 to 450 mph IAS and then try to roll...
The 84 is a great T&B bird, but if we consider the whole flight envelope, it has severe limitations.
The Hogs and Spits on the other hand...don't.
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hogs dont, you are correct but the ki makes up for it in every other aspect as stated. and if your raising eny for the dive, why is the p38 a lower eny then the ki, it sucks in the dive too. Dive should in not take precedence over the other flight envelopes.
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hogs dont, you are correct but the ki makes up for it in every other aspect as stated. and if your raising eny for the dive, why is the p38 a lower eny then the ki, it sucks in the dive too. Dive should in not take precedence over the other flight envelopes.
Well, the P-38 will loose control authority - the Ki84 will lose control surfaces - big difference. ;)
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hogs dont, you are correct but the ki makes up for it in every other aspect as stated. and if your raising eny for the dive, why is the p38 a lower eny then the ki, it sucks in the dive too. Dive should in not take precedence over the other flight envelopes.
FYI, P-38 doesn't suck in a dive.
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Again, many are forgetting that these ENY changes reflect aircraft popularity, not performance. If you don't like that, then you have to take BnZ's side in these arguments.
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109E-4=40
109F-4=30???
109G-2=30 egg, gondolas, DT
109G-6=30 egg, gondolas,rockets, DT and up armor
109E-4 should at least have a DT
109F-4 should at least get an egg and be 35
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p38 does not suck in a dive.
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While the Pee-51D may not be worthy of ENY 5 from a pure A2A perspective, as soon as you take A2G into the equation, things change dramatically. Basically there is no other plane that can haul 2000 lbs of ords to the target faster and get out almost unmolested due to its speed.
Except, of course, for the Typhoon.
Below 6k, which honestly is the alt where someone dropping bombs is going to find themselves, the Tiffie is faster both with WEP and without, it drags along 2K worth of bombs, and then when you are done, you have 4 cannon to strafe things with, AND you can turnfight better if you need to.
-Llama
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Hehe Madda! It was sort of a relative thing, ie. if this moves that should move relative to it.
If ENY is based on popularity of choice only (performance doesn't figure into it?!!! seems cockeyed) it basically is a vote then. All we have to do is ALL of us fly say the LA7 for a camp. It should jack its popularity through the roof and make it a perk plane. All we have to do is ALL agree. . .
Ok that's the end of that proposal :).
I think Delirium's point that ENY doesn't affect side switchers is sort of missed here. It points to the question of whether loyalty to a side makes any difference at all. If it doesn't, why does so much of the game infrastructure support it? If it does, why is ENY allowed to function as a mechanism to penalize those that don't switch?
There are individuals and squads that are exploiting this aspect of ENY constantly, to the detriment of the country system. At the very least, limiting side switching should be a consideration. <ducks the storm to follow>
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:huh People that side-switch are doing everyone a big favor in my opinion.
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:huh People that side-switch are doing everyone a big favor in my opinion.
Have to agree here...
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Except, of course, for the Typhoon.
Correct.
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Dive sucks on the p38l but its a 15, in every other aspect ki out preforms the 38L and Hogs.
Skyhawk
Dive doesn't suck in the P-38L, well, if you're not very good in flying the P-38L I guess it could be.
ack-ack
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Hehe Madda! It was sort of a relative thing, ie. if this moves that should move relative to it.
If ENY is based on popularity of choice only (performance doesn't figure into it?!!! seems cockeyed) it basically is a vote then. All we have to do is ALL of us fly say the LA7 for a camp. It should jack its popularity through the roof and make it a perk plane. All we have to do is ALL agree. . .
Ok that's the end of that proposal :).
I think Delirium's point that ENY doesn't affect side switchers is sort of missed here. It points to the question of whether loyalty to a side makes any difference at all. If it doesn't, why does so much of the game infrastructure support it? If it does, why is ENY allowed to function as a mechanism to penalize those that don't switch?
There are individuals and squads that are exploiting this aspect of ENY constantly, to the detriment of the country system. At the very least, limiting side switching should be a consideration. <ducks the storm to follow>
side switchers help everyone.....assuming they're doing it for the purpose of evening up the sides.
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That is because basing ENY values on whatever the History channel has been hyping lately is in fact meaningless, useless.
Though the changed ENYs are apparently not based on some esoteric combination of usage and k/d, else it would be hard to explain the rise in the ENY of La7, N1K, or even P-47N for that matter.
I think you greatly overestimate the effect of the History channel. Plane usage is much too stable for that argument to be valid. The P-51D is a very, very capable fighter, despite its short comings. It has high speed, coupled with great handling at high speed, something that very few aircraft have in AH. Your argument that it doesn't matter if 95% of the players flew it exclusively is also incorrect as it would destroy the enjoyment of the game for many people via the dearth of variety. The P-51D has much heavier use than the La-7 and N1K2-J, both of which lost a substantial percentage of their usage when they were updated.
BTW Karnak, recently had a chance to read "Startide Rising", "Sundiver" and the "Uplift War" as well. Brin write anymore in that series?
There is a trilogy that comes after, and in this case it is actually a trilogy not just three stories, loosely related, in the same universe. The pace is quite a bit slower, but there are some good parts and he says there is more to come.
Brightness Reef (http://www.amazon.com/Brightness-Reef-Uplift-Trilogy-Book/dp/0553573306/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254516360&sr=1-3)
Infinity's Shore (http://www.amazon.com/Infinitys-Shore-Uplift-Trilogy-Book/dp/0553577778/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254516360&sr=1-8)
Heaven's Reach (http://www.amazon.com/Heavens-Reach-Second-Uplift-Trilogy/dp/0553574736/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254516360&sr=1-7)
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I think you greatly overestimate the effect of the History channel. Plane usage is much too stable for that argument to be valid. The P-51D is a very, very capable fighter, despite its short comings. It has high speed, coupled with great handling at high speed, something that very few aircraft have in AH. Your argument that it doesn't matter if 95% of the players flew it exclusively is also incorrect as it would destroy the enjoyment of the game for many people via the dearth of variety. The P-51D has much heavier use than the La-7 and N1K2-J, both of which lost a substantial percentage of their usage when they were updated.
There is a trilogy that comes after, and in this case it is actually a trilogy not just three stories, loosely related, in the same universe. The pace is quite a bit slower, but there are some good parts and he says there is more to come.
Brightness Reef (http://www.amazon.com/Brightness-Reef-Uplift-Trilogy-Book/dp/0553573306/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254516360&sr=1-3)
Infinity's Shore (http://www.amazon.com/Infinitys-Shore-Uplift-Trilogy-Book/dp/0553577778/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254516360&sr=1-8)
Heaven's Reach (http://www.amazon.com/Heavens-Reach-Second-Uplift-Trilogy/dp/0553574736/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254516360&sr=1-7)
i've seen a couple of people that can make a d or b pony run cir4cles around spits.............
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i've seen a couple of people that can make a d or b pony run cir4cles around spits.............
Only because the Spit pilots they were fighting didn't have a clue.
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I think you greatly overestimate the effect of the History channel. Plane usage is much too stable for that argument to be valid.
Maybe the "hyping this month" thing was glib but you cannot overestimate the effect the American culture has on the thing's usage. There is no other reasonable explanation for the P-51's popularity vs. planes that are similar in capacity.
The P-51D is a very, very capable fighter, despite its short comings. It has high speed, coupled with great handling at high speed, something that very few aircraft have in AH.
Except for the 190, Corsair, Jug, Hellcat, SpitXVI...all handle well in a dive. Keep in mind that "handling" at speeds beyond 400mph IAS is pretty much wasted in ACM anyway, as you will be going way too fast to track well for shot against any kind of credible guns defense. When I fly the 38, the speed limitation is no great loss at low alts. I myself would be hesitant to call a plane with such a pedestrian roll rate, poor turn, and iffy departure "great handling" in any case. I've flown the Pony and its competition a good deal, and there is just absolutely no advantage to the Pony I can see that would keep a P-51 "ace" from switching to something else and being just as, if not more effective.
Thanks for the info on the books.
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i STILL have no clue what eny is intended to do. none. nada. zilch. zippo.
what i DO know, is that it has only affected me once or twice.
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It will affct you if you fly LW more
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It will affct you if you fly LW more
in the 38J?
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i STILL have no clue what eny is intended to do. none. nada. zilch. zippo.
what i DO know, is that it has only affected me once or twice.
ENY does two things:
1. It purportedly handicaps the high numbers side by keeping them out of the more "uber" rides. I say purportedly because we've still got some bizarre miscarriages in the system such as the one being discussed.
2. It also decides how many points X is given for shooting down Y. Once again, many potentially idiotic situations are still possible with the ENY system as it is now, such as a P-51D pilot getting fewer points for winning a fight with an La7 than the pilot of the latter aircraft would get for winning.
Looking at the two actual purposes of ENY, it is clear why fighter capability *must* be the standard, not popularity or the like.
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ENY does two things:
1. It purportedly handicaps the high numbers side by keeping them out of the more "uber" rides. I say purportedly because we've still got some bizarre miscarriages in the system such as the one being discussed.
2. It also decides how many points X is given for shooting down Y. Once again, many potentially idiotic situations are still possible with the ENY system as it is now, such as a P-51D pilot getting fewer points for winning a fight with an La7 than the pilot of the latter aircraft would get for winning.
Looking at the two actual purposes of ENY, it is clear why fighter capability *must* be the standard, not popularity or the like.
that helps some.....but i thought the la7 and d pony were fairly evenly matched?
i do know someone was talking on 200 in mw a few weeks ago, about some "quirk" in the system, allowing free jets.
next i knew, there were jets and tyffies all over the place.
someone else mentioned that if a d pony was running circles around a spit, then the spit driver didn't have a clue........i'm pretty sure there's some that can do it even with experienced spit drivers.
mayhaps a trainer that knows better could chime in here please?
<<S>>
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I'm going to make the statement which admittedly is hard to prove but I think is truthful.
The two predominant styles of play in the LW arena are furballing (primarily focused on air to air kills) and territory capture (capture fields, etc.).
Side switchers are primarily furballers looking for easy kills. They are not invested in the territorial game (think about it! why would anyone work hard to take bases to switch sides?) So they actually play the game of temporarily playing off the two other countries to rack up their own personal scores. They generally gather around any concentration of combatants, which will be mostly people earnestly working on taking a base, upping in the perked or low ENY planes going against high ENY planes, giving themselves every advantage. So I don't know that they do anyone a favor except themselves.
This seems to defeat the purpose of the ground game which necessarily is based on concentration of force at the right weak points. These weak points will disappear if they are mobbed by a bunch of score hounds.
So again, I'm having a hard time seeing how easy side switching is good :).
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Maybe the "hyping this month" thing was glib but you cannot overestimate the effect the American culture has on the thing's usage. There is no other reasonable explanation for the P-51's popularity vs. planes that are similar in capacity.
[snip]
I've flown the Pony and its competition a good deal, and there is just absolutely no advantage to the Pony I can see that would keep a P-51 "ace" from switching to something else and being just as, if not more effective.
Just a thought, but do you think perhaps the perspective you're missing is that of the large numbers of players who haven't flown the Pony or anything else a great deal? The relative effectiveness of two planes in the hands of an expert isn't the same as the relative effectiveness of the same two planes in the hands of a newbie, or even a pilot of moderate experience who is unfamiliar with that particular plane.
Also, I think range and carrying capacity are more important than you seem to be allowing for. What is happening in that respect is that as ENY rises, you are given a choice: carry lots of ords a long way to pork bases and suffer a penalty in dogfighting, or take a plane that can fight better but forget the porking, or at least do less of it. That might explain why the F4U-1D now has a lower ENY than the 1A model when the latter is, in the game at least, equal or superior in every respect except ord loadout.
I definitely agree with you about the "popularity" aspect of ENY working at cross purposes to its stated purposes. I like some of these changes but the system still isn't doing what it's supposed to do very well.
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No.
I know that 75% of the planes in the LW arenas aren't Punkstangs.
It just appears that way.
Its merely an illusion. :noid
But doesn't the 51 count for the most kills AND the most killed in?
By alot?
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Just a thought, but do you think perhaps the perspective you're missing is that of the large numbers of players who haven't flown the Pony or anything else a great deal? The relative effectiveness of two planes in the hands of an expert isn't the same as the relative effectiveness of the same two planes in the hands of a newbie, or even a pilot of moderate experience who is unfamiliar with that particular plane.
Nah, P-51 is a terrible plane for noobs. Doesn't turn well, not forgiving, doesn't have a cannon, does the run like hell thing but is not the fastest and it takes time to accelerate up to top speed. You can pick practically any ENY 10 or lower plane out of your hat and it will be easier for a nooby.
or take a plane that can fight better but forget the porking,
Good man :salute That would make for a better game.
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Geez fella, when the numbers are unbalanced enough for ENY to be in effect, it is rather debatable whether the putative better planes for the low-numbers side really balances the raw numerical superiority.
You think the guys who switch to the low number side and fly to large red Dar bars are being "selfish" in a game that is supposed to be about *combat*??? Ooooooookaaaaaaaaaaay.
I'm going to make the statement which admittedly is hard to prove but I think is truthful.
The two predominant styles of play in the LW arena are furballing (primarily focused on air to air kills) and territory capture (capture fields, etc.).
Side switchers are primarily furballers looking for easy kills. They are not invested in the territorial game (think about it! why would anyone work hard to take bases to switch sides?) So they actually play the game of temporarily playing off the two other countries to rack up their own personal scores. They generally gather around any concentration of combatants, which will be mostly people earnestly working on taking a base, upping in the perked or low ENY planes going against high ENY planes, giving themselves every advantage. So I don't know that they do anyone a favor except themselves.
This seems to defeat the purpose of the ground game which necessarily is based on concentration of force at the right weak points. These weak points will disappear if they are mobbed by a bunch of score hounds.
So again, I'm having a hard time seeing how easy side switching is good :).
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I'm going to make the statement which admittedly is hard to prove but I think is truthful.
The two predominant styles of play in the LW arena are furballing (primarily focused on air to air kills) and territory capture (capture fields, etc.).
Side switchers are primarily furballers looking for easy kills. They are not invested in the territorial game (think about it! why would anyone work hard to take bases to switch sides?) So they actually play the game of temporarily playing off the two other countries to rack up their own personal scores. They generally gather around any concentration of combatants, which will be mostly people earnestly working on taking a base, upping in the perked or low ENY planes going against high ENY planes, giving themselves every advantage. So I don't know that they do anyone a favor except themselves.
This seems to defeat the purpose of the ground game which necessarily is based on concentration of force at the right weak points. These weak points will disappear if they are mobbed by a bunch of score hounds.
So again, I'm having a hard time seeing how easy side switching is good :).
You are so off target that you just hit some poor Martian in the ass. Most of us that switch do so to help even out the numbers, I don't know about you but it's really not fun flying on a side that outnumbers the others by a hefty margin and the fight suffer as a result of such an unbalance. So we switch to help even out the sides and to find a fight. It has nothing do with switching so we can 'pad our scores by flying uber planes' or other such nonsense or to give ourselves every advantage. If you look at those of us that switch sides frequently, you'll see we're really not affected by the ENY if we didn't switch. Why is that? Because most of us don't fly the late war uber planes. There are some of us that don't need the crutch of low ENY or uber late war planes, we're just looking for a good fight is all.
ack-ack
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If I switch sides I do so to a side on which I can find a good fight, not because of ENY as my most common rides aren't usually affect. Less so no given they were just raised from 15 to 20 and from 25 to 30. Being on the high numbers side is boring.
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Akak and karnack +1
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I know that 75% of the planes in the LW arenas aren't Punkstangs.
It just appears that way.
Its merely an illusion. :noid
But doesn't the 51 count for the most kills AND the most killed in?
By alot?
i rarely fly lw. i'm starting to come there more, so i can fly with more of my SAPP friends.
i spent an hour or so in lwo(i think) last night. it had the map with the big island in the middle...with tanktown in the middle of that island. that's also where it seemed that the majority of the air battles were.
i flew my 38J o doom on every run. the majority of what i saw there, was spits, some la's(i don't know what series of either), a bunch of 190's. there was a 262, but he seemed only intent on staying above 15k, and only flew through the area twice.
there was a brewster down low, who kept trying to drag cons over v2, which was laden with about 10 anti-aircraft gv's.
i only scored 2 kills, a 190, and a spit9.
my point? in all of that mess of cartoon combat, i didn't see a single mustang. :aok
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But doesn't the 51 count for the most kills AND the most killed in?
By alot?
Yes, it's leading the competition. P-51D has usually about 7.5% of all plane (kills+deaths), Spit 16 about 6.5%
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Yes, it's leading the competition. P-51D has usually about 7.5% of all plane (kills+deaths), Spit 16 about 6.5%
Yup--I believe that nothing else in the game (excluding Gvs) even comes remotely close statisticly to those 2 planes.
I can't remember what the next plane down would be , but I'm bettin its about half or less than the 51 and 16.
Perk em both, they're a pox on the game! :D
Like freekin locusts. :O
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KI84 a 20! what? KI84 should be the same as the spit8, in a fight they are neck and neck. A hog has a hard fight vs a ki84 so why is a hog a lower eny? I consider the ki84 one of the most deadly planes in the game, great climb, great turn, Great roll, Great Wep, good speed, good guns, dive sucks but that is it. Dive sucks on the p38l but its a 15, in every other aspect ki out preforms the 38L and Hogs.
Skyhawk
what about payload guy.......and high alt preformance........guns arent good further then 400........very poor handling at high speed.........not good at taking damage.......just a few reasons ill give you as a person who flys the KI84 as a main ride
Oh and if it is so ubber why dont you see many flying around? last time i saw a enemy KI was atleast 4 days ago
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what about payload guy.......and high alt preformance........guns arent good further then 400........very poor handling at high speed.........not good at taking damage.......just a few reasons ill give you as a person who flys the KI84 as a main ride
Oh and if it is so ubber why dont you see many flying around? last time i saw a enemy KI was atleast 4 days ago
It's pretty close to uber junky, I used to fly it exclusively. Let me go through the points you just made if you don't mind.
Payload: moot point since it is a pure fighter. Spit16, Spit14,La7, N1k all have poor payloads as well but it's irrelevant. (I'm assuming you meant ordnance carrying capacity)
High Alt performance: True, it isn't very good above 20k, but what percentage of your engagements occur at 20k+... Less than 1%? Again, moot point.
Guns Aren't Good Further than 400 Out: I Lol'd when I read this because the only guns that are good further than 400 out are 50 cals and hispanos. I can't hit anything in the Ta152 or Me262 further than 300yds out but they have some of the most lethal guns in the game. Who wants to be firing and recording kills 400+ out anyways? 99% of my kills are had within 200yds.
Not Good at Taking Damage: I always thought it was at least average at taking damage TBH but I have no evidence to back up my feeling.
Poor Handling at High Speeds: This is the only reason you listed that is a valid handicap of the aircraft. But how much of a handicap is it really? So you can't go nose down and chase enemies who dive to the deck, this isn't really that big of a deal. Staying high, using the absurd climb rate, and killing the slow planes climbing up to you stalling out is where the kills are. Not chasing down P51Ds going 500+ on the deck. The only other handicap you failed to mention was its deck speed which honestly isn't a big deal since it climbs so well. Why try to outrun an enemy when you can just outclimb him?
As far as 1v1's go, it pretty much dominates every single LW aircraft in the game except for the uber spits. So lets go through the checklist. Great guns, lots of ammo, incredible climb rate, incredible turn rate, incredible stability, incredible endurance. Would I call the Ki84 "uber"? I just might.
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It's pretty close to uber junky, I used to fly it exclusively. Let me go through the points you just made if you don't mind.
Payload: moot point since it is a pure fighter. Spit16, Spit14,La7, N1k all have poor payloads as well but it's irrelevant. (I'm assuming you meant ordnance carrying capacity)
The Spit16 and N1K have very decent payloads. Both can carry ~1000lbs of ordnance.
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The Spit16 and N1K have very decent payloads. Both can carry ~1000lbs of ordnance.
They aren't used for their ordnance though. If the purpose of an aircraft is to shoot down other airplanes, it's a moot point what kind of ordnance they can carry. That was the point I was making but thanks for correcting me. :)
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They aren't used for their ordnance though. If the purpose of an aircraft is to shoot down other airplanes, it's a moot point what kind of ordnance they can carry. That was the point I was making but thanks for correcting me. :)
I have used the N1K for its ordnance in the past, and it's a NOE-horde favorite because of its ordnance/dogfighting flexibility. I've also seen people whine like crazy when a SpitXVI drops a bomb on the their GV. :lol
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Yup--I believe that nothing else in the game (excluding Gvs) even comes remotely close statisticly to those 2 planes.
I can't remember what the next plane down would be , but I'm bettin its about half or less than the 51 and 16.
Perk em both, they're a pox on the game! :D
Like freekin locusts. :O
invalid argumnet............ 163 near the bottom of the kills list......... should we UNperk it and give it ENY 40 make it available at every base?
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You are so off target that you just hit some poor Martian in the ass. Most of us that switch do so to help even out the numbers, I don't know about you but it's really not fun flying on a side that outnumbers the others by a hefty margin and the fight suffer as a result of such an unbalance. So we switch to help even out the sides and to find a fight. It has nothing do with switching so we can 'pad our scores by flying uber planes' or other such nonsense or to give ourselves every advantage. If you look at those of us that switch sides frequently, you'll see we're really not affected by the ENY if we didn't switch. Why is that? Because most of us don't fly the late war uber planes. There are some of us that don't need the crutch of low ENY or uber late war planes, we're just looking for a good fight is all.
ack-ack
So you're saying that most people that switch sides don't fly planes they couldn't get on the high number side? Perhaps you represent a minority of the side switchers?
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So you're saying that most people that switch sides don't fly planes they couldn't get on the high number side? Perhaps you represent a minority of the side switchers?
In my experience, most habitual side-switchers switch because they do not like being one of five "greens" chasing the sole enemy con in a sector, and not because they can't fly "their" plane. Only a few of them have a low-ENY plane as their main ride anyway.
Perosnally, I do enjoy cheap perk rides and huge perk modifiers, but like many of us, I'm way past the point that ENY is limiting me in any way. ENY 0 or 29, there's always a plane wotong for me in the hangar, as long as I have targets too.
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In my experience, most habitual side-switchers switch because they do not like being one of five "greens" chasing the sole enemy con in a sector, and not because they can't fly "their" plane. Only a few of them have a low-ENY plane as their main ride anyway.
Agreed.
- oldman
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Nah, P-51 is a terrible plane for noobs. Doesn't turn well, not forgiving, doesn't have a cannon, does the run like hell thing but is not the fastest and it takes time to accelerate up to top speed. You can pick practically any ENY 10 or lower plane out of your hat and it will be easier for a nooby.
rofl what rubbish! 51 is easy to fly, get kills in and go home to land. name any >10eny plane that can take the same ords 3 sectors to a field, drop said ords and have enough fuel, ammo and dogfighting capability to stay for another 30 mins killing at will...
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In my experience, most habitual side-switchers switch because they do not like being one of five "greens" chasing the sole enemy con in a sector, and not because they can't fly "their" plane. Only a few of them have a low-ENY plane as their main ride anyway.
Perosnally, I do enjoy cheap perk rides and huge perk modifiers, but like many of us, I'm way past the point that ENY is limiting me in any way. ENY 0 or 29, there's always a plane wotong for me in the hangar, as long as I have targets too.
I don't doubt it Lusche. I don't switch simply because my squad doesn't switch. My point with Ack-ack was that he may represent the exception since I don't see a lot of altruistic behavior in the majority of the AH population. Also it's hard to take people's altruism seriously when they disparage a preferred plane choice as a crutch. I don't have the numbers to break it down so I'm just asking. I expect most of us have seen people switch sides and grab perk or low ENY planes. I have been on the high number side in and ganged by people on the low number side because, as you know, arena numbers don't dictate numbers in a local fight, they just affect plane choices.
Your point regarding more targets to shoot at seems a more likely explanation. :D
The ENY adjustments seem reasonable to me except the LA-7. Time will tell and I'm sure we'll continue to see adjustments in the future.
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invalid argumnet............ 163 near the bottom of the kills list......... should we UNperk it and give it ENY 40 make it available at every base?
I agree. The ENY scores should be applied based on the ability of the aircraft and not some statistics that can be made to self serve the author.
btw... I still think the 109K-4 earned a "better" ENY, 20 is too high. Maybe an 18 or 15? :aok
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So you're saying that most people that switch sides don't fly planes they couldn't get on the high number side? Perhaps you represent a minority of the side switchers?
No, I'm not in the minority.
ack-ack
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rofl what rubbish! 51 is easy to fly, get kills in and go home to land. name any >10eny plane that can take the same ords 3 sectors to a field, drop said ords and have enough fuel, ammo and dogfighting capability to stay for another 30 mins killing at will...
Name another 5 eny plane that turns worse than 90% of the set, climbs and accelerates poorly, does not possess a cannon, and is out-run by multiple unperked rides. The thing that makes a ride easy for a nooby (or an old salt for that matter) are primarily turn, firepower, and speed, in that order. (Speed doesn't let a nooby do anything but run away without the first two.) The P-51D possesses only the latter, and its poor t/w ratio *severely* hampers what would otherwise seem like a great ability to close and disengage at will. 2009 statistics are not in, but in 2008 the SpitXVI had a better k/d than the P-51D. When an equally popular nooby plane that is about 25mph slower has a better k/d than the P-51, its ease of use as a fighter is highly questionable.
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I wouldn't say the P-51 climbs poorly. Here are the Zscores for climbrate. They show that the P-51D is simply middle of the pack for climbrate, i.e. better than about 50% of the planeset.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2319/3529482484_299106fb53_o.png)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/3529482502_5d329514f6_o.png)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3337/3529482520_01130404fd_o.png)
And how about roll rate at high speed?
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2204/3529482596_d1d10886c9_o.png)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3409/3529482606_d66f1c57cf_o.png)
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Oh, and btw, the P-51D's acceleration isn't terrible either:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2264/3528706027_de7103ec7b_o.png)
Or how about dive acceleration?
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2368/3529518776_2dfba61bdc_o.png)
Best TAS at <10k ft:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2285/3528669263_d881751f0c_o.png)
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BnZ, do you realize how much endurance the P51 has? Yes you state some good facts but ultimately if you look at the P51's fuel endurance as well as it's speed and maneuverability you'll understand why it's 5 eny. Just stating.
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Oh, and btw, the P-51D's acceleration isn't terrible either:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2264/3528706027_de7103ec7b_o.png)
Or how about dive acceleration?
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2368/3529518776_2dfba61bdc_o.png)
Best TAS at <10k ft:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2285/3528669263_d881751f0c_o.png)
Anax,
You really expect many on here to:
A: Know what a Z-score is?
or
B: Know how to interpret those graphs correctly?
I'm pretty impressed you took the time to do them....or rather, you took the time to tell Excel to do them ;) Very nice analysis, BTW. Used Soda's charts for the raws?
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I have used the N1K for its ordnance in the past, and it's a NOE-horde favorite because of its ordnance/dogfighting flexibility. I've also seen people whine like crazy when a SpitXVI drops a bomb on the their GV. :lol
The Ki-84 carries two 250kg bombs, just like the N1K2-J does.
I agree. The ENY scores should be applied based on the ability of the aircraft and not some statistics that can be made to self serve the author.
Good luck with that. What you propose is an impossible task as everybody will disagree as to what weight each performance aspect should be given in the total ability value of a given aircraft, and that is ignoring the fact that many aspects cannot be tracked effectively in numeric form. Far and away the best, and simplest, method to determine and aircraft's value is to let the market decide. The market is the player base and the decision is which aircraft they choose to fly. It is not perfect, but it is far better than any sort of personal bias filled "ability of the aircraft" number that anyone comes up with.
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5 is fair for a 51D. And glad they upped the N jug to 10 :salute
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Anax,
You really expect many on here to:
A: Know what a Z-score is?
Actually, more would know than you might expect because I've posted about Zscores in the past: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264759.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264759.0.html)
B: Know how to interpret those graphs correctly?
I'm pretty impressed you took the time to do them....or rather, you took the time to tell Excel to do them ;) Very nice analysis, BTW. Used Soda's charts for the raws?
Some of the data comes from gonzo's charts, and some I tested myself. I didn't start from scratch. A lot of the work had already been done by 442w30, but I added some new categories and tested things that I thought were important, like dive acceleration, turn rate, etc.
Now I just have to get the motivation to finish the B-239 and I-16. :)
FYI, for those who are wondering, here is a nice explanation of what Zscores mean:
...all of these scores are on a curve. The Z-Score curve is a bell curve. -2.00 = a score that is just over 2% better than all the rest of the POSSIBLE scores. Possible not necessarily meaning exisiting. -1 = better than just under 16%, 0.00 = right at 50%, 1.00 = better than just over 84%, 2.00 = better than just over 97%. So you see (or maybe not) that the better or worse a score is, the further up the curve it is and in reality the more impressive it is.
Because of the nature of Z-Scores and the bell curve, a 2.00 in one category is the SAME as a 2.00 in another, or any other like number. Z-Scores turn apples and oranges comparisons into Apples to apples....
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There's humor in the fact that in the effort to 'defend' the 51D from it's low ENY, BnZ has more or less resorted to trashing the plane. The way he makes it sound makes one wonder just what the hell the Luftwaffe was afraid of in the skies over Europe during 44/45. They must have been a sorry lot of pilots to fare so badly against such a mediocre plane. :)
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BnZ, do you realize how much endurance the P51 has? Yes you state some good facts but ultimately if you look at the P51's fuel endurance as well as it's speed and maneuverability you'll understand why it's 5 eny. Just stating.
No, no, no! :P It's 5 ENY because of its popularity. The rest of this discussion about performance factors is just for the sake of argument.
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There's humor in the fact that in the effort to 'defend' the 51D from it's low ENY, BnZ has more or less resorted to trashing the plane. The way he makes it sound makes one wonder just what the hell the Luftwaffe was afraid of in the skies over Europe during 44/45. They must have been a sorry lot of pilots to fare so badly against such a mediocre plane. :)
True, but BnZs is consistent in maintaining that the P-51D isn't a great fighter. He has held this position long before ENY was adjusted.
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Far and away the best, and simplest, method to determine and aircraft's value is to let the market decide. The market is the player base and the decision is which aircraft they choose to fly. It is not perfect, but it is far better than any sort of personal bias filled "ability of the aircraft" number that anyone comes up with.
The knowledge that informs the "market" is imperfect in the extreme and the choices made by players are frequently irrational. Rational, informed choices in such a technical matter depend on expert knowledge and there's no efficient way for the knowledge of the experts to be disseminated to the bulk of consumers because most of them don't read the forums. Markets don't work well in situations like that.
That's why, for instance, how a bridge is built is determined by a few expert engineers rather than taking a poll among all the people who'll be using it. The role of the market in such cases is ony to ratify the general way in which decisions get made by, in the case of public works, voting for or against the people who picked the experts or, in this case, by deciding whether AH2 is the best value for the consumers' money.
Basing ENY on popularity does very little and nothing whatsoever, respectively, to advance the stated purposes: persuading players to switch sides to balance numbers and putting a handicap on those who remain with the much more numerous side. You can see the results of this as often as not in the MAs.
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Anaxogoras,
In your charts, what fuel and ordnance does it use? It looks to me like the Mosquito is heavily under performing in the low altitude climb charts. If you are using full fuel, it wouldn't really represent the MA where aircraft like the P-51s, Mosquito, Ta152, P-47N and A6Ms rarely carry full fuel.
Crash Orange,
The experts for AH are HiTech and Pyro, but people refuse to accept their numbers. Where does that leave it?
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75%, IIRC. But the Mosquito really does climb like poopoo. :D
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There's humor in the fact that in the effort to 'defend' the 51D from it's low ENY, BnZ has more or less resorted to trashing the plane. The way he makes it sound makes one wonder just what the hell the Luftwaffe was afraid of in the skies over Europe during 44/45. They must have been a sorry lot of pilots to fare so badly against such a mediocre plane. :)
The fact that the LW was heavily outnumbered. Also they lost a lot of experienced pilots so there were a lot of newbies for the LW.
I have the same opinion of the 51 - it's FAR from an uber plane. It's not bad, but give me a D9 for BnZ and a K4 for energy fighting any day.
Also you have to look at it in comparison to the La7 which had its ENY raised?! La7 is faster on the deck, turns better, accelerates better, climbs better, and has a better guns package...
Pony has... better range, high alt performance, and views...
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75%, IIRC. But the Mosquito really does climb like poopoo. :D
Hmm. At 50%, my normal load and using WEP, it climbs at better than 3,500fpm initially. I wonder how many people take 75% fuel on these extremely long ranged fighters?
Also you have to look at it in comparison to the La7 which had its ENY raised?! La7 is faster on the deck, turns better, accelerates better, climbs better, and has a better guns package...
Pony has... better range, high alt performance, and views...
Better ballistics, better ordnance.
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The experts for AH are HiTech and Pyro, but people refuse to accept their numbers. Where does that leave it?
I don't think disputing the numbers in the forums constitutes rejection in this context. If people stay in the game, they're accepting the numbers. If they leave, they're rejecting them. A less severe form of rejection might be players boycotting a plane they feel is incorrectly rated, but the bulk of the player base isn't nearly coordinated or well-informed to do that.
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Better ballistics, better ordnance.
Point taken. Still, can you argue based on these things that it was necessary to essentially exchange the ENY values between LA7 and P51?
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Point taken. Still, can you argue based on these things that it was necessary to essentially exchange the ENY values between LA7 and P51?
It is pretty clear that change was made based on respective usage and the P-51D gets close to twice the usage the La-7 does.
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9 pages of replies and no mention of the C.205 or the P-40E.
C.205 now 25 was 20,
P-40E now 35 was 30.
Both seem reasonable.
I would like to hear the official rationale for all of the changes. It is probably an attempt to encourage a wider diversity in the LW. It also changes the perks earned, but that doesn't seem like a good reason in itself for the changes.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=57&pw=1>ype=2)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=57&pw=1>ype=2)
So far as I can tell, that chart was from when the Mosquito was a bomber and is with 100% fuel and 2,000lbs of bombs.
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The fact that the LW was heavily outnumbered. Also they lost a lot of experienced pilots so there were a lot of newbies for the LW.
And the fact that the 51 was fast, performed great at alt, had long range, good roll and good guns, control at high speeds, etc.
It was a good plane. That the Luftwaffe was outnumbered , that was a product of production, it was also a product of that whole 'getting shot down' thing.
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It is pretty clear that change was made based on respective usage and the P-51D gets close to twice the usage the La-7 does.
Yeah I understand, doesn't mean it reflects the planes' relative strengths.
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Yeah I understand, doesn't mean it reflects the planes' relative strengths.
well popularity pretty much equates to overall effectivess in the MA, so theyre almost the same thing. very different from in a 1v1 duelling context which some posters seem to take as the basis for comparison.
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And the fact that the 51 was fast, performed great at alt, had long range, good roll and good guns, control at high speeds, etc.
It was a good plane. That the Luftwaffe was outnumbered , that was a product of production, it was also a product of that whole 'getting shot down' thing.
No dispute that the P51 was a good plane, although 190s are competitive in many of these areas. 109s less so. The P51D was a good plane, but I'd hardly call it "the plane that won the war". The Brits will claim the Spit won the war... and then there's the Hurri, P47, P38, Tempest, Typhoon... it goes on and on. It's pretty fallacious to claim the P51 deserves a 5.0 ENY based on what you imagine its reputation during WWII was like.
I'd put the following factors FAR ahead of the Mustang's (or really any plane's) performance in terms of Allied air dominance over Europe especially towards the end of the war:
1) Numbers. Consider that Germany was fighting on three fronts at about half the population of the United States alone (not to mention Russia and Britain). In a war of attrition (which WWII most certainly was), you will LOSE that fight, even with superior aircraft. There's absolutely no way around this fact.
2) Average pilot combat experience - with heavy losses in experienced aircrew and no combat rotations, the average level of German pilots deteriorated greatly towards the late war. What good is an aircraft without a pilot who knows how to push it?
Consider also that Germany developed the first operational jet fighter (which was probably far more feared than the P51) and it should be pretty obvious that engineering proficiency was one thing Germany did NOT lag behind the Allies in.
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well popularity pretty much equates to overall effectivess in the MA, so theyre almost the same thing. very different from in a 1v1 duelling context which some posters seem to take as the basis for comparison.
Shouldn't K/D ratio more readily equate to overall effectiveness in the MA? Think about the reputation the P51 has in the west, especially the States... that alone should account for a large part of its popularity.
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..
I'm familiar with the lost-cause laundry list.
No one in this thread ever claimed the 'mustang won the war' though, so not sure whose strawman you are knocking down.
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Shouldn't K/D ratio more readily equate to overall effectiveness in the MA? Think about the reputation the P51 has in the west, especially the States... that alone should account for a large part of its popularity.
No, because that can easily be distorted by a skilled or a few skilled players who have a liking for a particular airplane. In fact, the less popular that airplane is the easier it is for a few players to boost its K/D ratio way above normal. Look at the long P-38J thread as an example.
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I'm familiar with the lost-cause laundry list.
No one in this thread ever claimed the 'mustang won the war' though, so not sure whose strawman you are knocking down.
Ok, let me take a step back here. You said... "makes you wonder what the LW was so afraid of in the skies over 44/45?"
Well let's see... the HORDE of Allied fighters... hence the numbers comment.
Also... facing superior pilots... hence my comment on pilot experience...
Finally... any of the great number of OTHER types of Allied planes, not the least of which includes the Spit, the 38, and Tempest.
That put things in perspective? What I'm saying is, I doubt they really feared the 51D more than they feared everything else that they had against them.
In the current skies of AH, the same holds true. I'd be much more afraid of a horde of fighters than a lone P51. Much more afraid of a really good opponent. And finally I'd probably fear a Tempest or Spit more than a 51.
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No, because that can easily be distorted by a skilled or a few skilled players who have a liking for a particular airplane. In fact, the less popular that airplane is the easier it is for a few players to boost its K/D ratio way above normal. Look at the long P-38J thread as an example.
Right, but popularity can affected by sentiment, which distorts its use as a proxy for effectiveness.
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Right, but popularity can affected by sentiment, which distorts its use as a proxy for effectiveness.
It can't distort it nearly so much as a few good players can distort the K/D ratio of a rarely flown aircraft.
Example, the P-40 is often seen in the US as one of the great fighters and is used in the media as a default "WWII fighter" all the time, yet its performance is so poor in AH that sentiment has done essentially nothing to make it popular.
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1.) Does anyone in these 10 pages of personal bias and armchair second guessing know HTC's criterion by which the ENY changes were made?
2.) What percentage of the game's day to day average player base do the hand full of experts in this thread represent?
3.) Are there more of you experten in the game impacting the statisics you speak of,,,,,,, or more of the average player base creating the statisc trends HTC has looked at for this ENY adjustment?
4.) Mr. HiTech, I will understand if you choose not to answer. What factors prompted you this time to make adjustments to ENY?<--- thank you ahead of time if you choose to answer... :)
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One thing to keep in mind is the suspected near future implementation of a perked loadout system alluded to with with the recent revamp of the hanger GUI. These new ENY values could be preemptive tweaking toward that end. Perhaps the perked loadout you choose also acts as a +/- modifier to the new base ENY values for each plane.
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I like the change to Yak9T
Why is the 37mm weak at range though? I was pinging the crap out of bombers at 1k and had no effect (about 10 ping sprites on one bomber), but single hits from 600 out dismantled two bombers.
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I like the change to Yak9T
Why is the 37mm weak at range though? I was pinging the crap out of bombers at 1k and had no effect (about 10 ping sprites on one bomber), but single hits from 600 out dismantled two bombers.
The Yak 37mm is probably the most effective "Tater" at range in the game. Firing all at the same time? You were probably seeing the 12.7 hitting. The 37mm gives a nice puff when it hits.
Bomber kills, I believe, are as dependent on where you hit them as with what you are hitting them with. This is especially true of a single hit to a single area.
wrongway
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One thing to keep in mind is the suspected near future implementation of a perked loadout system alluded to with with the recent revamp of the hanger GUI. These new ENY values could be preemptive tweaking toward that end. Perhaps the perked loadout you choose also acts as a +/- modifier to the new base ENY values for each plane.
:aok
---
The k4 was not and will not be adjusted due to influence by the Muppet conspiracy.
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:aok
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The k4 was not and will not be adjusted due to influence by the Muppet conspiracy.
.kekekekeke ^_^
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The Yak 37mm is probably the most effective "Tater" at range in the game. Firing all at the same time? You were probably seeing the 12.7 hitting. The 37mm gives a nice puff when it hits.
Bomber kills, I believe, are as dependent on where you hit them as with what you are hitting them with. This is especially true of a single hit to a single area.
wrongway
I know better than to fire the 12.7mm, I was definatly landing hits with the tater. Almost all of my hits were on the tail section as I was directly behind the formation and was holding a 1k distance until I got low on taters and closed to 600 where the next round finished the bird I was working on, and then the next round after that blew up the 2nd bomber. That situation in particular upset me because there were 4 sets of bombers in front of me and I was expecting to take them down one at a time from range with the 37mm. But after spending so much time trying to take down that first bomber the other 3 sets were taken down by other knights.
I missed the first couple shots because to my suprise the round was not dropping at all at 1k. I was getting hit sprites by pointing the sight directly at the bomber.
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The Yak 37mm is probably the most effective "Tater" at range in the game. Firing all at the same time? You were probably seeing the 12.7 hitting. The 37mm gives a nice puff when it hits.
Don't assume he's an idiot.
I've shot the crap out of Lancasters with 37mm and watched them lose flaps.
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Haggerty, check out this thread.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,258664.0.html
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It can't distort it nearly so much as a few good players can distort the K/D ratio of a rarely flown aircraft.
Example, the P-40 is often seen in the US as one of the great fighters and is used in the media as a default "WWII fighter" all the time, yet its performance is so poor in AH that sentiment has done essentially nothing to make it popular.
Well argued, you've convinced me and I concede the point. Still, I just feel the last adjustment wasn't quite right - that's purely opinion though.
p.s., you mentioning the P-40 example sealed the deal on the argument, very good choice. :aok
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Don't assume he's an idiot.
I've shot the crap out of Lancasters with 37mm and watched them lose flaps.
Yes Lancs are like pumping rounds into a tree. However they can be single shot kill though it's not easy to pull off consistently. Single round right on the wing joint where it joins the fuselage from slightly above and 90 degrees. They are a guaranteed 1 shot kill. :devil
Speaking of the 37mm in general as a long range tater. I've always considered that completely wrong.. The advantage of the 37mm (if you get the timing right) is it's king hit advantage over any other plane with a single close range snap shot. Taking long range snipe shots is a waste of very limited ammo.
Wait for them to come to you.
<S>...-Gixer
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It's pretty close to uber junky, I used to fly it exclusively. Let me go through the points you just made if you don't mind.
Payload: moot point since it is a pure fighter. Spit16, Spit14,La7, N1k all have poor payloads as well but it's irrelevant. (I'm assuming you meant ordnance carrying capacity)
High Alt performance: True, it isn't very good above 20k, but what percentage of your engagements occur at 20k+... Less than 1%? Again, moot point.
Guns Aren't Good Further than 400 Out: I Lol'd when I read this because the only guns that are good further than 400 out are 50 cals and hispanos. I can't hit anything in the Ta152 or Me262 further than 300yds out but they have some of the most lethal guns in the game. Who wants to be firing and recording kills 400+ out anyways? 99% of my kills are had within 200yds.
Not Good at Taking Damage: I always thought it was at least average at taking damage TBH but I have no evidence to back up my feeling.
Poor Handling at High Speeds: This is the only reason you listed that is a valid handicap of the aircraft. But how much of a handicap is it really? So you can't go nose down and chase enemies who dive to the deck, this isn't really that big of a deal. Staying high, using the absurd climb rate, and killing the slow planes climbing up to you stalling out is where the kills are. Not chasing down P51Ds going 500+ on the deck. The only other handicap you failed to mention was its deck speed which honestly isn't a big deal since it climbs so well. Why try to outrun an enemy when you can just outclimb him?
As far as 1v1's go, it pretty much dominates every single LW aircraft in the game except for the uber spits. So lets go through the checklist. Great guns, lots of ammo, incredible climb rate, incredible turn rate, incredible stability, incredible endurance. Would I call the Ki84 "uber"? I just might.
F6Fs and F4Us both can handle with a KI in a slower turn fight where the KI becomes uber, but they can also carry 2 1000 bombs plus rockets. the climb rate yes is very good but there is still alot of rides which can keep up with it, 38s 109s spits n1k LA<<<<<big one yaks all of them can use the extra speed they have in a level flight to climb with a KI. Im not saying the KI isnt uber because I know it is especially when you can get it flying right but since all the rest of the 5 eny planes went up I think it should too. What do you consider as a better all around plane a KI84 or a P38J?
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What do you consider as a better all around plane a KI84 or a P38J?
Ki84 hands down, unless it's a mission to take to a seal clubbing, then the P38 has more kill potential. Only thing the 38 has on the Ki84 is ammo load imo.
From all my past experience with the Ki84, I honestly think it should be Eny'd between 10-15. Maybe 12 or so. I don't understand how it went up from 15 to 20. The only thing more mind boggling than that is the Mossie going from 25 to 30.
F6f might be able to beat it in rolling scissors but it is also significantly slower of an aircraft. Not sure about the F4u/Ki matchup but I think the Ki84 could eventually gain E edges on a D and 1a models but might struggle with the u4. F4U's are tough to beat slow against competent F4U drivers in any plane. The other planes you mentioned that can climb with it and chase it down can't turn with it except the Spit16. The spit16 is the ki84's only true nemesis in my opinion. Obviously the Spit9 and Spit8s as well but I think it is faster than those two and can run if need be.
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Ki84 hands down, unless it's a mission to take to a seal clubbing, then the P38 has more kill potential. Only thing the 38 has on the Ki84 is ammo load imo.
From all my past experience with the Ki84, I honestly think it should be Eny'd between 10-15. Maybe 12 or so. I don't understand how it went up from 15 to 20. The only thing more mind boggling than that is the Mossie going from 25 to 30.
F6f might be able to beat it in rolling scissors but it is also significantly slower of an aircraft. Not sure about the F4u/Ki matchup but I think the Ki84 could eventually gain E edges on a D and 1a models but might struggle with the u4. F4U's are tough to beat slow against competent F4U drivers in any plane. The other planes you mentioned that can climb with it and chase it down can't turn with it except the Spit16. The spit16 is the ki84's only true nemesis in my opinion. Obviously the Spit9 and Spit8s as well but I think it is faster than those two and can run if need be.
I think they went up because the LA7 and the N1k went up do keep it close to what it was before the eny update. Spit 8 i think is a bit faster 9 isnt but 9 is a beast in any fight. Hogs are hard but E fighting they cant keep up
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From all my past experience with the Ki84, I honestly think it should be Eny'd between 10-15. Maybe 12 or so. I don't understand how it went up from 15 to 20. The only thing more mind boggling than that is the Mossie going from 25 to 30.
That's an easy question to answer: low popularity.
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From all my past experience with the Ki84, I honestly think it should be Eny'd between 10-15. Maybe 12 or so. I don't understand how it went up from 15 to 20. The only thing more mind boggling than that is the Mossie going from 25 to 30.
I haz inside aksus ta HTC?!?
Nah, they may be the two aircraft I am most likely to use, but the answer is that not very many people use them compared to other fighters.
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Did they drop the Wirb's ENY?
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Did they drop the Wirb's ENY?
Yes, from 25 to 15
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Yes, from 25 to 15
Ah, great. Read through the first pages and nothing popped out to me about it. Much needed drop.
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15 is low enough for the Wirbel to actually be affected when there is a large numbers imbalance. :t
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15 is low enough for the Wirbel to actually be affected when there is a large numbers imbalance. :t
Most definitely. If the turret wasn't porked I'd say 10 would be better but 15 is right in there right now.
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Well, I'm glad that the Brewster's ENY was raised from 25 to 30. 30 definately represents the plane better.
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Good point Wmaker!
Instead of nitpicking wether the P-51 or La 7 should be 5 instead of 8 and vice versa, there has been a lot of reasonable and long overdue ENY adjustments:
P39Q: 20 > 30 (20 was really optimistic)
F4F-4: 20 > 35 (was even worse than the 39Q)
190A8: 31 > 25 (was quite an ENY bargain - now reasonably rated)
C.205: 20 > 30 (again, was rated very optimistically)
Just a few examples.
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Side switchers are primarily furballers looking for easy kills. They are not invested in the territorial game (think about it! why would anyone work hard to take bases to switch sides?) So they actually play the game of temporarily playing off the two other countries to rack up their own personal scores. They generally gather around any concentration of combatants, which will be mostly people earnestly working on taking a base, upping in the perked or low ENY planes going against high ENY planes, giving themselves every advantage. So I don't know that they do anyone a favor except themselves.
So again, I'm having a hard time seeing how easy side switching is good :).
QFT!
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Don't assume he's an idiot.
I've shot the crap out of Lancasters with 37mm and watched them lose flaps.
Just trying to clarify. I've done the same. B-25s and B-26s also.
Speaking of the 37mm in general as a long range tater. I've always considered that completely wrong.. The advantage of the 37mm (if you get the timing right) is it's king hit advantage over any other plane with a single close range snap shot. Taking long range snipe shots is a waste of very limited ammo.
Wait for them to come to you.
<S>...-Gixer
You shouldn't take that long range shot, but you can. After all, you're only shooting one tater at a time.
Nothing is more satisfying than taking the wing off that Runstang from 1k out with your last tater.
:devil
wrongway
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From Aircraft of WWII pg 165 gives the following performance for the tempest.
2.180 hp engine top speed 426 mph service ceiling 36.500 ft empty weight 9.080 loaded 13.450
P-51D 1510 hp Merlin V-1650 engine top speed 437 mph service ceiling 41.900 ft. empty weight 7.125 loaded 11.600. (pg 212)
This information seems the same in about any performance chart I look at. Yet here is Aces High the P-51 is slower than the Tempest. The higher you fly the P-51D the better the performance gets. While the Yak-9D has at top speed of 339 mph but I can't catch one most the time in a ME109. So I to am confused by ENY for some planes and performance.
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Correction on the Yak I looked at the the wrong model the Yak-U has a top speed of 412 mph in Aircraft of WWII. I was looking for the mid war yak performance.
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From Aircraft of WWII pg 165 gives the following performance for the tempest.
2.180 hp engine top speed 426 mph service ceiling 36.500 ft empty weight 9.080 loaded 13.450
P-51D 1510 hp Merlin V-1650 engine top speed 437 mph service ceiling 41.900 ft. empty weight 7.125 loaded 11.600. (pg 212)
This information seems the same in about any performance chart I look at. Yet here is Aces High the P-51 is slower than the Tempest.
It is not. As you said yourself, P-51 speed gets better at altitude:
(http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5857/genchart.png)
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Only because the Spit pilots they were fighting didn't have a clue.
I put that at 98% :D
Performance chart as follows....
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/38chart.jpg)
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It is not. As you said yourself, P-51 speed gets better at altitude:
(http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5857/genchart.png)
how do you generate those charts? (the axes labelling always makes me smile on them - 3700 grid for alt :huh)
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how do you generate those charts?
I didn't. They are automatically generated by HTC: Check out "Comparative Statistics" on the Score & Stats page.
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ah ty, Ive been using the gonzo site for comparison. I guess the AH tool is more up to date?
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ah ty, Ive been using the gonzo site for comparison. I guess the AH tool is more up to date?
It's using actual game data to compute those graphs.
But of course, Gonzo's site is still very valuable as much more data can be found there, even though the "recent" additions are missing.
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I'm going to make the statement which admittedly is hard to prove but I think is truthful.
The two predominant styles of play in the LW arena are furballing (primarily focused on air to air kills) and territory capture (capture fields, etc.).
Side switchers are primarily furballers looking for easy kills. They are not invested in the territorial game (think about it! why would anyone work hard to take bases to switch sides?) So they actually play the game of temporarily playing off the two other countries to rack up their own personal scores. They generally gather around any concentration of combatants, which will be mostly people earnestly working on taking a base, upping in the perked or low ENY planes going against high ENY planes, giving themselves every advantage. So I don't know that they do anyone a favor except themselves.
This seems to defeat the purpose of the ground game which necessarily is based on concentration of force at the right weak points. These weak points will disappear if they are mobbed by a bunch of score hounds.
So again, I'm having a hard time seeing how easy side switching is good :).
Jumping sides when your side is high in #'s to find a better fight seems easy enough to understand as good. Of course that's assuming that you appreciate the action of fighting more enemies w/ less help as opposed to being assigned to be the 3rd guy in on a VH in a mission involving 20 people.
To each his own.
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Rapier missed the target, the hay, and the barn on that post.
The game is the fight. The 80th will fly P-38s in and fight. We do not fly perk birds and we do not care about score. We fly on the low number side to even teams.
This also allows you to use your low eny GVs.
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Actually Shuffler, we are in violent agreement. The game is the fight and most of the side switchers are using side switching to their own personal advantage. It gives them more targets and better or at least equal planes. The argument that side switching is done out of altruism brought tears to my eyes. . . Then I got done laughing :).
Your argument that the 80th flies 38s is true FOR YOU and your small group. I believe that you will choose the low side. You guys are good at that plane and you've worked hard to be so. You guys use teamwork to minimize the weak points of the plane. But it is a real stretch to extend that to the general AH population.
So in regards to the average player, I don't think I missed :).
Unfortunately a lot of people are using the argument, "this is what I do and I think everyone does what I do" and that isn't always correct. Can't be actually. Watch how the numbers flow and who flows to what team and what they come back flying in. I may not be totally right but there is at least a nugget of truth in there.
My main argument is that ENY should be based on performance and not popularity. Otherwise it penalizes popular choices and creates uber planes that get exploited.
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Actually Shuffler, we are in violent agreement. The game is the fight and most of the side switchers are using side switching to their own personal advantage. It gives them more targets and better or at least equal planes. The argument that side switching is done out of altruism brought tears to my eyes. . . Then I got done laughing :).
You are clueless. It has nothing to do with the planes and saying more targets is a personal advantage is a very odd way of putting it. The fight is where the fun is and I decline to join four other guys in a conga line after a single enemy. That isn't a fight and it isn't fun. So if I switch to that one guy's side, yes, it is to my advantage as it makes it more fun for me. It should also be to the advantage of the four guys who were clubbing baby seals as the fight is the fun and they were missing that. If they think only clubbing baby seals is fun, they're fundamentally broken and I will disregard their desire for their type of "fun."
My main argument is that ENY should be based on performance and not popularity. Otherwise it penalizes popular choices and creates uber planes that get exploited.
If they get significantly exploited then their popularity will drive their ENY values down. If they don't get exploited, then they weren't good enough and you were wrong about them being "uber planes."
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1) You guys use teamwork to minimize the weak points of the plane
2) "this is what they do and I think everyone does what they do"
Prior post...
3) This seems to defeat the purpose of the ground game which necessarily is based on concentration of force at the right weak points
1) We can also fly single very well thank you. We do not require the horde to roll the low number side. As it would be if we were "stuck" on a single side.
2) Seems to be what your saying.
3) Weak ponts? Trying to avoid the fight by bringing the "concentration of power"(horde) to a weak point
There are many folks I know of that look for the fight and are not married to any side.
You say you like to capture and that furballers do not help you at all... sounds like your the one that does no one a favor except yourself.
Capturing bases serves no purpose. All that happens is a terrain is changed. In the end if you have fun doing what you do then you have won.
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Sorry Shuffler, but this illustrates the dangers of putting words in someone else's mouth. :)
I never said I like to base capture. Actually I don't. I've never done a base capture outside of a scenario. I like air to air.
No one said you guys couldn't fly as singles, I'm sorry you feel the need to defend that record.
Seems like you are set on being on opposite sides. Sorry you feel that way.
I'll let you all get back to drinking the cool-aid and swirling it around. BTW, what flavor is it?
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Sorry Shuffler, but this illustrates the dangers of putting words in someone else's mouth. :)
I never said I like to base capture. Actually I don't. I've never done a base capture outside of a scenario. I like air to air.
No one said you guys couldn't fly as singles, I'm sorry you feel the need to defend that record.
Seems like you are set on being on opposite sides. Sorry you feel that way.
I'll let you all get back to drinking the cool-aid and swirling it around. BTW, what flavor is it?
One can only read what you've posted to this point and make a determination. Base capture looks to be what your saying is so important.
As for defending how we fly, I was making sure you understood that.
You said you look for weak points and I said we did not. If you think that is saying the same thing then I can't help you.
We don't drink kool-aid we dring margaritas frozen with salt on the rim. Hence the SAPP blenders.
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The Pony is just an all around darn good freaking airplane. You have indicated it doesn't particularly shine is one area (i disagree here btw, how about e retention or dive) but is better then average in most.
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This is just plain wrong. Please learn your AH planes before you comment on them.
The fact is, for a fighter role, the 51 is probably the worst late war rides. The k4, la7, d9, 152 are all late war rides that are clearly superior to the 51D overall.
The K4 is an uber fighter, much better than the 51, yet its ENY is much higher. It out turns, climbs, accelerates, rolls about the same, out guns the 51 yet its ENY is significantly higher. I can only assume that ord carrying ability has something to do with ENY, otherwise it doesn't make much sense to me.
For me personally, I don't care about ENY because I like to fight the horde, it's fun. I have an abundance of perks so farming is of no import to me.
RTholmes, the other late war rides are no more difficult to get/land kills in, with the exception of endurance, especially la7 vs pwny. As for endurance though, how much fun would it be to cruise around and get 2 or 3 kills an hours..... zzzzzzzzz. :)
Clearly the 51D is inferior to it's contemporaries, in a fighter role.
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From Jane's Fighters of WWII. P-51H 1650-11 2.218 hp Merlin engine speed 487 mph the last model from the war time production. I didn't see a production number by wars end or how many saw combat use.
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"My ride is worse."
"No, my ride is worse."
"Is not."
"Is to."
"Is not."
"Is to."
:aok
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"My ride is worse."
"No, my ride is worse."
"Is not."
Didn't this happen in another thread? As I recall, it was F4U vs 109K4
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Clearly the 51D is inferior to it's contemporaries, in a fighter role.
Yep.
You can't even really call our P-51D contemporary of some of things its fighting. Its modeled after the performance the D had at its introduction in '44, not what they were getting out of Ponies in the last 5 minutes of the war.
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Yep.
You can't even really call our P-51D contemporary of some of things its fighting. Its modeled after the performance the D had at its introduction in '44, not what they were getting out of Ponies in the last 5 minutes of the war.
The same can be said of quite a few other aircraft, including your hated Spitfire Mk XVI.
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The Dedicated 51 squads that does not side hop better get in shape in the B pony I guess. looks like it will get taken from us more often. The Bravo turns a lil better anyhow :) I cant fly either of them but, Ill keep trying :)
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Bravo is faster too.....
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The same can be said of quite a few other aircraft, including your hated Spitfire Mk XVI.
Yes, but the P-51D's '44 performance is a good deal worse than the SpitXVI's '44 performance. You yourself said the P-51D was under-engined by '43 standards. By the same token the SpitXVI's thrust/weight looks rather good stacked alongside the various '45 rides.
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so what you Geldings are saying is that ...
"the p51-D is over rated?"
:devil
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Bravo is faster too.....
But not where most of AH combat is happening. It's faster in a small "window" between ~13K and 18K, and >26K only.
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so what you Geldings are saying is that ...
"the p51-D is over rated?"
:devil
I was patient debating with you in other threads instead of just calling you a "tard" like other posters...but this tears it.
Maybe no one has ever told you anything about how to behave as a man before, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and share one major item of the "code" you should have learned before now: If you want to call another man, any man, something like "gelding", do it to his face. And out of doors.
We know return you to your regularly scheduled aircraft discussions.
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...
"the p51-D is over rated?"
:devil
From the AHII standpoint... most definitely Yes
As for the gelding part, please quit thinking about my balls, it's unnerving.
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Yes, but the P-51D's '44 performance is a good deal worse than the SpitXVI's '44 performance. You yourself said the P-51D was under-engined by '43 standards. By the same token the SpitXVI's thrust/weight looks rather good stacked alongside the various '45 rides.
That has nothing to do with the comment I was replying to. Both the P-51D and Spitfire Mk XVI in AH are running on 100 octane fuel, and both were running on 150 octane fuel by late 1944 in reality. So your comment that our P-51D is not performing like a late WWII P-51D, implying that it should be higher performance compared to things like the Mk XVI, when in fact the other fighters are in some cases just as "impaired". If the P-51K (basically a P-51D built in Texas as I recall) were added with 150 octane fuel it would need to be perked, but I think that would actually be a pretty nice addition to the P-51 lineup.
The reason the P-51D is underpowered as a pure fighter for 1943 is simply a matter of weight. It has the same power and half again the weight of a Spitfire Mk VIII, thus it is underpowered as a pure fighter in 1943 terms. In compensation it brings other things to the table that the Spitfire, Bf109, Fw190, La-5 and Yak do not, primarily long range. Thus the P-51 can be considered underpowered for a pure fighter, but very good for an escort fighter as an escort fighter will always weigh more than a pure fighter.
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1) We can also fly single very well thank you. We do not require the horde to roll the low number side. As it would be if we were "stuck" on a single side.
2) Seems to be what your saying.
3) Weak ponts? Trying to avoid the fight by bringing the "concentration of power"(horde) to a weak point
There are many folks I know of that look for the fight and are not married to any side.
You say you like to capture and that furballers do not help you at all... sounds like your the one that does no one a favor except yourself.
Capturing bases serves no purpose. All that happens is a terrain is changed. In the end if you have fun doing what you do then you have won.
Actually Shuf, we are furballers only. If you look at our score, you'll not find a single base capture. Ever.
I think a lot of the guys who switch really do so in order to even things up and have good fights, I really do. And I have nothing but respect for you guys in the 80th, you guys play the game the way I feel it ought to be played. (I'm sure that most, if not all of our handfull of guys would agree with me on that point.) A lot of our guys believe in staying on one side in order to build better and stronger and longer lasting relationships with players on the same side, and feel that it leads to better teamwork in the right situations. I agree with that too, but I don't think that someone who switches sides is necessarily going to care any less about helping a guy out who needs it just because he hasn't known him for a good while. That is just my opinion there however.
I have seen guys use the eny and side switching to avoid being on the low side, and yet still keep their perk rides though. But, really, that doesn't even bother me too much. I just want to fight some guys and kill a few of them if I can. What I think of the way anyone else plays the game has literally no signifigance.
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it's an old nickname for the perpetually complaining pony pilots that infest online WW2 air combat games ...
a term of endearment you know like "runstang" or "less-scorts" ...
i am amazed you two have never heard it in this context before ...
well now you have, it is pretty catchy, so you might as well get used to it ...
From the AHII standpoint... most definitely Yes
As for the gelding part, please quit thinking about my balls, it's unnerving.
I was patient debating with you in other threads instead of just calling you a "tard" like other posters...but this tears it.
Maybe no one has ever told you anything about how to behave as a man before, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and share one major item of the "code" you should have learned before now: If you want to call another man, any man, something like "gelding", do it to his face. And out of doors.
We know return you to your regularly scheduled aircraft discussions.
you guys sure are sensitive, it was all in good fun ...
you did notice the imacon >> :devil << ...
so back to your "oh wo is me and my little pony" discussion ...
very entertaining ...
++S++
t
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The fact that I had to even look up "Geldings" shows that it's pretty outside the standard AH vocab.
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it's an old nickname for the perpetually complaining pony pilots that infest online WW2 air combat games ...
ayou guys sure are sensitive, it was all in good fun ...
you did notice the imacon >> :devil << ...
So was my gelding retort... meant to be a zinger tinged in humor. :)
I'll fight in my pony. This means I get schooled sometimes, but I win now and then too. :aok
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So was my gelding retort... meant to be a zinger tinged in humor. :)
good, glad to see there is a sense of humor here :D
b&z seemed truly offended which was not my intention ...
I'll fight in my pony. This means I get schooled sometimes, but I win now and then too. :aok
btw, i feel the same way about my a8 :aok
+S+
t
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Buy the way my understanding is that the Mustang has a good roll rate at high speeds and maneuvers better than most at speed. But what do I know. I have only been involved with them from the opposing side mostly. I fly LW most all the time. I don't look at the ENY, or worry about which plane is better. My most used rides are the FW 190D-9, Bf 109G-2, and FW 190A-8. I'm not the best pilot by a long shot but I will say one thing. I will up against anyone anytime no matter what you are flying. If you shoot me down good. You will not hear me whine or complain. Now lets see if you can do the same. Buy the way I find the Mustang and most Allied planes overall easier to fly. They seem more stable and handle nicer. That's why the few times I fly them I get my bellybutton handed to me. I prefer a plane that requires more attention. Just like my women.
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nm
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Buy the way I find the Mustang and most Allied planes overall easier to fly. They seem more stable and handle nicer. That's why the few times I fly them I get my bellybutton handed to me. I prefer a plane that requires more attention. Just like my women.
The feminine metaphor for airplanes makes me laugh.
Both will drain your bank account in a heartbeat.
Both can be fatally unforgiving.
And both can take you to new heights.
Planes don't get jealous when you ride another plane, though.
I can do this all day.
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Buy the way my understanding is that the Mustang has a good roll rate at high speeds and maneuvers better than most at speed.
There is no such thing as "maneuvering better at speed" unless one plane has high-speed control authority problem like the 109s.
A Pony and a SpitXVI going 300mph IAS are both above their corner speeds. The P-51 will not "out-turn" the Spit at this speed...both planes will have the same turn performance at 300mph because they both have the same limitation, Gs. But as speed bleeds down the the Pony will become lift-limited sooner than the Spit with and its sustained rate and radius will be better. The caveat is that sometimes the worse-turning plane can dump excess speed quicker when both planes begin maneuvering well above their corner speed. But for when a plane has significantly inferior turn performance, the advantage it gains by doing this is likely to very momentary, and in any case it can be countered by the plane with a momentary over-abundance of energy capitalizing on that excess and *not* entering the "who can slow down fastest" contest, the maneuvers to do this being generally well known. (The average level of AH flyer is higher than most give credit for. Most players seem to have *some* understanding of using vertical geometry to arrest forward momentum.)
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I am not, btw, a big time P-51 pilot. I fly alot of planes in the MA, they all have their qualities, that is why the P-51 strikes me as nothing special in AHII.
Thing that I kind of pick up and object to is a sort of hostility towards the airplane amongst the forumites, the guy who wanted it perked being the most extreme example. I think there are people here who would secretly be glad it it was modeled to turn like a 190 A-8, accelerate like a P-40B, and have the firepower of a D3A, and then *perked*, just because they are so darn tired of the noob pick and runners and History channel hyperbole.
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I am not, btw, a big time P-51 pilot. I fly alot of planes in the MA, they all have their qualities, that is why the P-51 strikes me as nothing special in AHII.
Thing that I kind of pick up and object to is a sort of hostility towards the airplane amongst the forumites, the guy who wanted it perked being the most extreme example. I think there are people here who would secretly be glad it it was modeled to turn like a 190 A-8, accelerate like a P-40B, and have the firepower of a D3A, and then *perked*, just because they are so darn tired of the noob pick and runners and History channel hyperbole.
are you really saying the pony turns like an a8 in AH ?
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There is no such thing as "maneuvering better at speed" unless one plane has high-speed control authority problem like the 109s.
Some planes roll faster as speeds increase , some roll slower as the KPH go up.
That qualifies as 'maneuvering better at speed' .
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Actually Shuf, we are furballers only. If you look at our score, you'll not find a single base capture. Ever.
I think a lot of the guys who switch really do so in order to even things up and have good fights, I really do. And I have nothing but respect for you guys in the 80th, you guys play the game the way I feel it ought to be played. (I'm sure that most, if not all of our handfull of guys would agree with me on that point.) A lot of our guys believe in staying on one side in order to build better and stronger and longer lasting relationships with players on the same side, and feel that it leads to better teamwork in the right situations. I agree with that too, but I don't think that someone who switches sides is necessarily going to care any less about helping a guy out who needs it just because he hasn't known him for a good while. That is just my opinion there however.
I have seen guys use the eny and side switching to avoid being on the low side, and yet still keep their perk rides though. But, really, that doesn't even bother me too much. I just want to fight some guys and kill a few of them if I can. What I think of the way anyone else plays the game has literally no signifigance.
Thanks for your vote of confidence. I have no problem with folks who don't change other than when they complain about eny or numbers. The 80th always flies for the green side no matter who that may be.
Funny actually as each side pretty much says the same about the other side. :aok
Most on each side appreciates us coming over to help. There are always a few that can't understand though. <S>
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are you really saying the pony turns like an a8 in AH ?
The a8 is perhaps the only fighter the 51D out turns. The pony will out turn a couple of others, under specific circumstances.
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The a8 is perhaps the only fighter the 51D out turns. The pony will out turn a couple of others, under specific circumstances.
hehe ok ...
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Just FYI
Thor comes from a sim in which 51s easily outturn 109s...
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not mine ...
Just FYI
Thor comes from a sim in which 51s easily outturn 109s...
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hehe ok ...
For the sake of AHII, this is a fact, Thor.
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i am sure it is, it is just sort of vague on a couple of points ...
that's all ...
no offense
+S+
t
For the sake of AHII, this is a fact, Thor.
The a8 is perhaps the only fighter the 51D out turns. The pony will out turn a couple of others, under specific circumstances.
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The a8 is perhaps the only fighter the 51D out turns. The pony will out turn a couple of others, under specific circumstances.
This isn't true.
P-51D easily out turns at least 190A-5, 190F-8 and 190D-9 aswell.
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Some planes roll faster as speeds increase , some roll slower as the KPH go up.
That qualifies as 'maneuvering better at speed' .
That falls under the control authority issue I mentioned. Although I could have said "turning" instead to be more clear.
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This isn't true.
P-51D easily out turns at least 190A-5, 190F-8 and 190D-9 aswell.
Yes it is true. For instance with no flaps the pony outturns the a5 by a small margin.. not "easily" at all.
Under full flaps, the A5 outturns the pony. The same is true for the D9
As I said
The pony will out turn a couple of others, under specific circumstances.
This statement is true.
I didn't consider the F8, only because it is rarely flown
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Yes it is true. For instance with no flaps the pony outturns the a5 by a small margin.. not "easily" at all.
Under full flaps, the A5 outturns the pony. The same is true for the D9
Yes because the 190s turn so well with their 180mph flap deployment speeds...... :noid
You use flaps in a 190 and you die. You use flaps in a p51 and most times you win. So perhaps not best to drag them into the argument.
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Yes because the 190s turn so well with their 180mph flap deployment speeds...... :noid
You use flaps in a 190 and you die. You use flaps in a p51 and most times you win. So perhaps not best to drag them into the argument.
There is no argument. I stated a known fact:
The pony will out turn a couple of others, under specific circumstances.
What's to argue about?
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You use flaps in a 190 and you die.
For the sake of argument.....Not all the time :P
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Krusty has a point, under most circumstances where you can get the flaps in a 190 out, the Pony has already won enough angles that it doesn't make a difference.
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Krusty has a point, under most circumstances where you can get the flaps in a 190 out, the Pony has already won enough angles that it doesn't make a difference.
I didn't say anything about a fight between planes. Krusty may have a point but it has nothing to do with what I said:
The pony will out turn a couple of others, under specific circumstances
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Without having read through 15 pages of fluff, I got the impression you were comparing the 2 against each other in a fight (i.e. a 190 fighting a p51).
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Without having read through 15 pages of fluff, I got the impression you were comparing the 2 against each other in a fight (i.e. a 190 fighting a p51).
No sir. Sorry I didn't use a more complete thought.
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(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/SAPPRulz.gif)
We are watching.........
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i never could get anyone to give me a good reason why the 190-As or Ds are out turned by a pony, any pony ...
curious is that both planes with full flaps deployed or just the pony?
as i understand it you can't consider the a8 because it is not representative of any real a8
(unless i misunderstood)
Yes it is true. For instance with no flaps the pony outturns the a5 by a small margin.. not "easily" at all.
Under full flaps, the A5 outturns the pony. The same is true for the D9
As I said
This statement is true.
I didn't consider the F8, only because it is rarely flown
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Yes it is true. For instance with no flaps the pony outturns the a5 by a small margin.. not "easily" at all.
Under full flaps, the A5 outturns the pony. The same is true for the D9
As I said
This statement is true.
I didn't consider the F8, only because it is rarely flown
Rarely flown is relative, at times I see F-8s quite a bit. P-51D out turns the Me-262 aswell.
While what you said may be true on the deck regarding the Dora and A-5 I personally considered a banking turn where the turn is entered from somewhat fighter-like cruising speeds, not with landing speeds with flaps already down. Of course one can throttle back during the turn and try to get the 190s flaps fully down but that has very little to do with practicality. Also as the alt where the turning is taking place increases, the speeds increase and the full flaps of the 190 won't come down at all. So even if what you say is true on the deck, it's very quickly untrue as alt increases. One thing that also affects this is the fuel loads. When using fuel loads that give the both palnes the same flight time/range it comes even more difficult for the 190s.
Be as it may, saying that 190A-8 is the only fighter in AH that P-51D out turns, is false.
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i never could get anyone to give me a good reason why the 190-As or Ds are out turned by a pony, any pony ...
A wingloading of 48 lbs. per square foot at typical combat loadings for the D9 vrs. 39 lbs per square foot.
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not sure i agree with your numbers but i wont quibble since it is not much more than 20% either way ...
the thing is i believe the dora does better than that %age in both power and lift loading vs the pony, and weight, and acceleration (you can correct me if your sources differ than mine) ...
and the a5 should have advantages in all these areas just mentioned ...
my point is the only distinct aerodynamic advantage is in roll rate, and that goes to the 190 at turning speeds.
yet in these games the relative turn rates are so poor for the 190s that it is very difficult to exploit it's roll rate advantage much.
i don't have CFS is it different there ?
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not sure i agree with your numbers but i wont quibble since it is not much more than 20% either way ...
the thing is i believe the dora does better than that %age in both power and lift loading vs the pony, and weight, and acceleration (you can correct me if your sources differ than mine) ...
and the a5 should have advantages in all these areas just mentioned ...
my point is the only distinct aerodynamic advantage is in roll rate, and that goes to the 190 at turning speeds.
yet in these games the relative turn rates are so poor for the 190s that it is very difficult to exploit it's roll rate advantage much.
i don't have CFS is it different there ?
The numbers I give are for when the Pony vs. D9 are for 50% vs 100% fuel. This is the "fairest" fuel loading comparison you can get, the Pony still having more time on MIL at this loading than the D9. 48 vs. 39 lbs vs. 48 lbs is a *huge* difference in wingloading. At 75% for both, it is 41vs 45, still a very large difference. 75% for the Pony means full wing-tanks, and a mostly empty AUX...IOW, typical engaging weight.
What you should asking is not why the Pony outturns the Dora, but why the Pony at 50% (39 lbs/foot) and the 190 A-5 (43 lbs/foot) are both badly out-turned by the P-47D-11(43lbs/foot), even without flaps.
The D9 does out-climb and out-accelerate the Pony. The A5 also has a powerloading advantage, but does not out-accelerate the Pony at low levels, even though it does outclimb it there. This could have something to do with drag, since our A-5 is also apparently about 8-12mph too slow at sea level.
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The A5 also has a powerloading advantage, but does not out-accelerate the Pony at low levels, even though it does outclimb it there.
What do you mean power loading? Never heard the term before - you mean thrust/weight?
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(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/SAPPRulz.gif)
We are watching.........
lmao :rofl where did ya pick that up at? Now everyone will want a spinning globe in their sig. :rolleyes:
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What do you mean power loading? Never heard the term before - you mean thrust/weight?
Yup
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Rarely flown is relative, at times I see F-8s quite a bit. P-51D out turns the Me-262 aswell.
Be as it may, saying that 190A-8 is the only fighter in AH that P-51D out turns, is false.
You've only used part of my assertion and I will not allow you to do that so your juvenile mind can think it won an argument. I'm simply unwilling to put up with such tardish behavior.
The pony will out turn a couple of others, under specific circumstances.
I said this and it's correct. And you are a damned liar if you say you see F8's quite a bit. Rarely flown is not relative. The f8 is rarely flown, period. I will not suffer fools, and you are one.
The other part of my statement was
The a8 is perhaps the only fighter the 51D out turns.
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You've only used part of my assertion and I will not allow you to do that so your juvenile mind can think it won an argument. I'm simply unwilling to put up with such tardish behavior.
I said this and it's correct. And you are a damned liar if you say you see F8's quite a bit. Rarely flown is not relative. The f8 is rarely flown, period. I will not suffer fools, and you are one.
The other part of my statement was
Just, wow!
:huh
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i still am not jiving with your #s are they from the game or outside sources? i will look around later.
i am pretty sure the fighter 190s were all lighter than the pony at any stage of load out, the dora being the heaviest, not sure about the in game a8 as it is not an actual representation(or so i am told).
i will look around but even adjusting for fuel this information has the dora (again the heaviest of the fighter 190 variants) 20% ahead of the pony in two of three categories most discussed when considering turn performance. what that equates to in turn rate/radius i don't know for sure but it in no way shows me that the pony should have any kind of advantage what so ever.
Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang
(http://www.tullisart.com/images/Black12.jpg)
Fw-190 D-9 Statistics:
Engine: Junkers Jumo 213A1 with MW-50 boost.
Power: 2,240 HP.
Max. Speed: 704 km/h. (438 mph.)
Max. Climb: 1110 m/min (3,642 ft/min.)
Empty Weight: 3,490 kg. (7,694 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 4,293 kg. (9,464 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 4,839 kg. (10,670 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 10.50 m. (34.4 ft.)
Wing-Area: 18.3 sq.m. (197 sq.ft.)
Armament: 2x 13mm HMG's (MG 131) & 2x 20mm cannons (MG 151/20).
Fw-190 D-9 Aerodynamic statistics:
Wing-loading *Loaded*: 234.59 kg/sq.m. (48 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 6.02.
Airfoil: NACA 23015.3 - NACA 23009.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 15.3% Tip= 9% .
Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.52 .
Lift-loading *Loaded*: 154.33 kg/sq.m. (31.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 1.91 kg/hp. (4.22 lbs/hp.)
Fw-190 D-9 Additional features:
-Bubble-canopy & Flettner Tabs.
-Inclined seat position for better G-load resistance & "Kommandogerat".
(http://www.tullisart.com/4FG.jpg)
P-51D Mustang Statistics:
Engine: Packard Merlin V-1650-7.
Power: 1,790 HP.
Max.Speed: 703 km/h (437mph).
Max. Climb: 1011 m/min. (3,320 ft/min)
Empty Weight: 3,466 kg. (7,641 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 5,034 kg. (11,100 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 5,489 kg. (12,100 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 11.3 m. (37.07 ft.)
Wing-Area: 21.64 sq.m. (233 sq.ft.)
Armament: 6x .50 cal HMG's (M2).
P-51D Mustang Aerodynamic statistics:
Wing-Loading *Loaded*: 232.62 kg/sq.m. (47.6 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 5.81 .
Airfoil: "Laminar" NAA/NACA 45-100 - NAA/NACA 45-100.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.8 or 15% Tip= 12%.
Wing CL-max: 1.28 .
Lift-loading *Loaded*: 181.73 kg/sq.m. (37.18 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 2.81 kg/hp. (6.2 lbs/hp.)
P-51D Mustang Additional features:
-Laminar wing & Tear-shaped canopy.
-Gyro-Gunsight.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Aerodynamic Facts:
Airfoil Thickness Ratio - Higher is better.
Airfoil CL-max - Higher is better.
Wing Aspect Ratio - Higher is better.
Lift-loading - Lower is better.
Power-loading - Lower is better.
Wing Aspect ratio info:
High aspect ratio wings have long spans (like high performance gliders), while low aspect ratio wings have either short spans (like the F-16 fighter) or thick chords (like the Space Shuttle). There is a component of the drag of an aircraft called induced drag which depends inversely on the aspect ratio. A higher aspect ratio wing has a lower drag and a higher lift than a lower aspect ratio wing. All else being equal, the higher the wing aspect ratio, the higher the wing Cl-max is also going to be.
Laminar wing info:
Laminar flow wings lowered the drag, but this came at the cost of lower lift, especially under high G loads. A Laminar flow wing will stall earlier and more violently than a conventional wing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
so like i said you may have a slight advantage in wing loading but you are losing in the other two categories are much heavier and have a known significant roll rate disadvantage ...
feel free to check these numbers, i will be looking into yours ...
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t
The numbers I give are for when the Pony vs. D9 are for 50% vs 100% fuel. This is the "fairest" fuel loading comparison you can get, the Pony still having more time on MIL at this loading than the D9. 48 vs. 39 lbs vs. 48 lbs is a *huge* difference in wingloading. At 75% for both, it is 41vs 45, still a very large difference. 75% for the Pony means full wing-tanks, and a mostly empty AUX...IOW, typical engaging weight.
What you should asking is not why the Pony outturns the Dora, but why the Pony at 50% (39 lbs/foot) and the 190 A-5 (43 lbs/foot) are both badly out-turned by the P-47D-11(43lbs/foot), even without flaps.
The D9 does out-climb and out-accelerate the Pony. The A5 also has a powerloading advantage, but does not out-accelerate the Pony at low levels, even though it does outclimb it there. This could have something to do with drag, since our A-5 is also apparently about 8-12mph too slow at sea level.
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I've seen that before. The only way to get a 48 lbs per foot wingloading out of a P-51D is full fuel *and* drop tanks.
Since the aft tank was burned down first (and it can be documented that it was sometimes left unfilled, even in combinations with drop tanks on shorter range missions), and the drop tanks were, well, dropped, this is deliberately misleading. Considering the source that originally posted these numbers, this is not surprising.
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I've heard different things quoted for the P-51D Clmax actually. Dead simple way to compare basic lift loading is to compare 1g stall speeds. P-51 is usually stated to stall at 100mph clean, the P-47D at 105 clean, and Brown gives us 127mph clean for the 190 he tested(A4?). Accelerated stall speed is equal to the square root of the G load times the 1g stall speed. Lets figure for 8gs, the P-51D's limit and a pretty heavy load for a non-G-suited pilot. Square root of 8 is ~2.8, so that gives us 280mph for the Pony, which jives pretty well, since its corner speed is usually quoted as 270mph, but *with one notch of flaps*. 2.8 times 127 by contrast is 355. Lets say that the plane Brown was testing was not quite right in some way, and reduce the stall speed to 110. That still gives us 308mph. So I don't think there can be any doubt the P-51 *should* have an advantage in instantaneous turn rate. According to Shaw and others, sustained turn *radius* is so closely related to the minimum speed an aircraft can fly that the P-51 would almost surely have the smaller sustained radius here. That leaves sustained turn rate, which can be influenced by things like power loading and lift/drag ratio. The D9's power might be a help here...and indeed according to Mosq's data, both the P-51D and D9 have an identical sustained turn rate with no flaps, 18.3 d/s.
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says loaded clean on the weights ...
are you forgetting ammo?
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Virtually all the AH numbers I've seen indicate the Pony turns tighter than any FW190 variant.
http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
http://www.major.geek.nz/AKUAG/Resources.aspx
I'm not debating real world numbers - just the ones that matter for our game. Note all these numbers were direct tests of turn performance, not theoretical/calculated ones.
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says loaded clean on the weights ...
are you forgetting ammo?
"Clean" stall speed means no flaps.
Weights at various loadings from the E6B in AHII, six guns and full ammo for the Pony. HTC is picky about that sort of detail...and no drop tank rail for the 190 in my numbers btw, if you were wondering.
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yall turn tight as ya want. I'm goin' yoyo on ya :D
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I find it pretty amusing that changing the Pony from eny 8 to eny 5 has riled this many feathers. (9 out of 10 posters are riled up about the pony, after all)
Great bait, HT! :salute
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"Clean" stall speed means no flaps.
Weights at various loadings from the E6B in AHII, six guns and full ammo for the Pony. HTC is picky about that sort of detail...and no drop tank rail for the 190 in my numbers btw, if you were wondering.
i think *clean* re the weight means nothing hanging off the plane, tanks, bombs etc ...
i don't think stall speed is stated at all in the data i posted ...
also i think some have said the FWs are a bit heavy, is that just the a8 ?
still even with your numbers either the dora or the a5 should clearly out turn the pony depending on whether you choose to consider wing-loading as more important, or power loading as more important ...
right?
+S+
t
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too bad the 1-2 notches weren't tested ...
i'm afraid i brought reality into this discussion ...
just curious about stuff i guess ...
+S+
t
Virtually all the AH numbers I've seen indicate the Pony turns tighter than any FW190 variant.
http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
http://www.major.geek.nz/AKUAG/Resources.aspx
I'm not debating real world numbers - just the ones that matter for our game. Note all these numbers were direct tests of turn performance, not theoretical/calculated ones.
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"Clean" and "Dirty" are common colloquial references to no flaps/flaps conditions, and that is how I used it.
The figures you quoted were either simply designed to mislead or the person posting them didn't bother to notice that for a P-51D to have a wing loading of 48 lbs/foot it would have to weigh in at over 11,100 lbs...indicating full fuel *and* drop tanks. And it is clear from the differences in stall speed that the P-51 has the better lift-loading, not just lighter wing-loading by crude lbs/feet estimates.
The only problems I've heard about the Fws being heavy in AHII were regarding the 190 A-8, the claim there IIRC being that it has the weight of an up-armored version but in the opinion of those making the claim it lacks the toughness one would expect from an up-armored version.
I can't rattle the mathematical formulas off the top of my head, but I've read enough from Shaw and others to learn that the plane with the better lift loading will have the better instantaneous turn rate and radius, and almost always the smaller sustained turn radius. It is possible for a plane with a better power loading to have an equal or superior turn rate despite heavier loading, as the D9 apparently does in AHII. There is a limit however, especially with prop planes. Thus the 109 K-4 does not beat the A6M in sustained turn rate, despite a vastly superior power loading.
So the physics of the P-51 turning slightly better than both the A and D makes perfect sense, and is borne out by WWII testing and combat reports, where the P-51D was found to be slightly more nimble. Thus there is nothing to complain about in the relative performance of P-51 and 190, although one might *might* be justifiable in wondering why the turn so poorly for their wingloading in relation to most other craft in AHII.
i think *clean* re the weight means nothing hanging off the plane, tanks, bombs etc ...
i don't think stall speed is stated at all in the data i posted ...
also i think some have said the FWs are a bit heavy, is that just the a8 ?
still even with your numbers either the dora or the a5 should clearly out turn the pony depending on whether you choose to consider wing-loading as more important, or power loading as more important ...
right?
+S+
t
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17 pages of "I'm right and you're wrong!!!!". :rock
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too bad the 1-2 notches weren't tested ...
i'm afraid i brought reality into this discussion ...
just curious about stuff i guess ...
+S+
t
The reality is that it *has* been tested and the P-51D gains its best sustained turn rate at 1 notch of flaps. IIRC...pretty sure though.
Full flaps give it a smaller radius but result in degradation of turn rate, as is the case with most planes.
This is perfectly consistent with physical reality, because sustained radius is mostly about being able to fly as slowly as possible, while sustained rate is determined by a more complex interaction of lift and drag.
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What I dont understand is why anyone thinks the Dora should out turn the P51 anyway. By all reports I have read the Dora was a disappointment in service against the P-51 and the Ta-152 was supposed to be the answer (an answer that came too late and too few in number).
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not mine ...
Then why all the whining over there? :noid
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17 pages of "I'm right and you're wrong!!!!". :rock
:)
Just because two are arguing doesn't mean one is right. :P
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:)
Just because two are arguing doesn't mean one is right. :P
but one can be more wrong than the other :D
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What I dont understand is why anyone thinks the Dora should out turn the P51 anyway. By all reports I have read the Dora was a disappointment in service against the P-51 and the Ta-152 was supposed to be the answer (an answer that came too late and too few in number).
I'd like to read those reports.
All things considered, even if it was considered unsatisfactory I'm not sure how relevant that would be to it's turn radius/rate.
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Why do so many people hinge the ability of a fighter on its turn radius?
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Information in reference to maneuvering at speed.
AU/AWC/RWP067/96-04
AIR WAR COLLEGE AIR UNIVERSITY
THE P-51 MUSTANG AS AN ESCORT FIGHTER
DEVELOPMENT BEYOND DROP TANKS TO AN
INDEPENDENT AIR FORCE
by
Karen Daneu Lt Col, USAF
A Research Report Submitted To the Faculty In Fulfillment of the Curriculum Requirement
Advisor: Dr. James A. Mowbray
Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama 1 April 1996
The most radical design feature was the advent of the laminar flow wing. The laminar flow theory had been known and studied by the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA). Mr. A.C. Robinson of NACA provided NAA with the unpublished research data and design studies. The NACA officials had estimated the new airfoil would reduce drag 50 percent below that of a normal conventional wing.8
Laminar flow results from a symmetrical airfoil that has the same curvature on the upper and lower surfaces. The thin leading edge widens to a point of greatest thickness at the farthest aft point before air breaks down and providing less lift in the high-drag turbulent area.9 In simple terms, the pressure producing lift is spread out more.10 Figure 1 compares a cross section of the P-51 wing to that of the Spitfire and FW 190, illustrating the laminar flow concept.11
6
This design allowed for reduced peak airflow velocities over the wing, thus postponing and minimizing “compressibility” effects on the airplane (drag rise, lift loss, nose down “tuck,” buffeting and loss of elevator effectiveness for dive recovery) which hampered other fighters of the day when approaching mach numbers greater than 0.7. The new airfoil provided an advantage in high-speed combat maneuvers.12
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lmao :rofl where did ya pick that up at? Now everyone will want a spinning globe in their sig. :rolleyes:
I made it awhile back.
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well *clean* is clearly stated in the data i posted and they are obviously referring to the load state. did you look at the data because your argument about lift loading also favors all the FWs so i don't understand what you are trying to say there.
i am not positive about the ponys weight as i have found 2000lbs of variance in the stated loaded weights between the different published sources that i have looked at so far ...
however in the flight magazine article about the FW-a3 brown tested they state the wing loading as 42.3 lbs per square foot and it still retains a power loading and lift loading advantage over the pony ...
point being one of the FWs should clearly turn better than the p51s depending on what HTC deems most important in their physics model.
i got the data from another BBS site where people are pretty strict about these things so i am not sure what you mean about the source being biased, you yourself admitted to fudging with your fuel loading in order to produce the weights you wanted, because they didn't they are bias? i told you we could use the empty weight if you wanted.
when we compare both empty, then the pony is still over a 1/4 ton heavier than the heaviest FW fighter, since power is the same, lift and power loading are even more in the FWs favor.
right?
as far as the flaps go, other games both newer and older are moving away from the POH as a satisfactory source that accurately represents the aircrafts capability in that regard. just as HTC decided not used the POH as too subjective to use in other areas of decision making about FMs.
just curious, when you complain about the ponies turn rate do you consider the combat flap turn rate or not?
+S+
t
"Clean" and "Dirty" are common colloquial references to no flaps/flaps conditions, and that is how I used it.
The figures you quoted were either simply designed to mislead or the person posting them didn't bother to notice that for a P-51D to have a wing loading of 48 lbs/foot it would have to weigh in at over 11,100 lbs...indicating full fuel *and* drop tanks. And it is clear from the differences in stall speed that the P-51 has the better lift-loading, not just lighter wing-loading by crude lbs/feet estimates.
The only problems I've heard about the Fws being heavy in AHII were regarding the 190 A-8, the claim there IIRC being that it has the weight of an up-armored version but in the opinion of those making the claim it lacks the toughness one would expect from an up-armored version.
I can't rattle the mathematical formulas off the top of my head, but I've read enough from Shaw and others to learn that the plane with the better lift loading will have the better instantaneous turn rate and radius, and almost always the smaller sustained turn radius. It is possible for a plane with a better power loading to have an equal or superior turn rate despite heavier loading, as the D9 apparently does in AHII. There is a limit however, especially with prop planes. Thus the 109 K-4 does not beat the A6M in sustained turn rate, despite a vastly superior power loading.
So the physics of the P-51 turning slightly better than both the A and D makes perfect sense, and is borne out by WWII testing and combat reports, where the P-51D was found to be slightly more nimble. Thus there is nothing to complain about in the relative performance of P-51 and 190, although one might *might* be justifiable in wondering why the turn so poorly for their wingloading in relation to most other craft in AHII.
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i am not sure about the ponies wing, i have read that the construction process did not result in a wing that could achieve the kind of flow that the designers were hoping for.
i mean that there is some doubt that the wing actually achieved "Laminar Flow", so i have never been clear about what the wing actually achieved for the pony. can anyone clear this up? not being difficult here but this is one of those historic "he said she said" things that is difficult to sort through as the sources seem to disagree.
Information in reference to maneuvering at speed.
AU/AWC/RWP067/96-04
AIR WAR COLLEGE AIR UNIVERSITY
THE P-51 MUSTANG AS AN ESCORT FIGHTER
DEVELOPMENT BEYOND DROP TANKS TO AN
INDEPENDENT AIR FORCE
by
Karen Daneu Lt Col, USAF
A Research Report Submitted To the Faculty In Fulfillment of the Curriculum Requirement
Advisor: Dr. James A. Mowbray
Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama 1 April 1996
The most radical design feature was the advent of the laminar flow wing. The laminar flow theory had been known and studied by the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA). Mr. A.C. Robinson of NACA provided NAA with the unpublished research data and design studies. The NACA officials had estimated the new airfoil would reduce drag 50 percent below that of a normal conventional wing.8
Laminar flow results from a symmetrical airfoil that has the same curvature on the upper and lower surfaces. The thin leading edge widens to a point of greatest thickness at the farthest aft point before air breaks down and providing less lift in the high-drag turbulent area.9 In simple terms, the pressure producing lift is spread out more.10 Figure 1 compares a cross section of the P-51 wing to that of the Spitfire and FW 190, illustrating the laminar flow concept.11
6
This design allowed for reduced peak airflow velocities over the wing, thus postponing and minimizing “compressibility” effects on the airplane (drag rise, lift loss, nose down “tuck,” buffeting and loss of elevator effectiveness for dive recovery) which hampered other fighters of the day when approaching mach numbers greater than 0.7. The new airfoil provided an advantage in high-speed combat maneuvers.12
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Why do so many people hinge the ability of a fighter on its turn radius?
i don't think we do we are addressing some complaints and right now we are looking at the reasoning behind those complaints, sort of ;)
i do pretty well in my a8 and that can not be done with flat turns the way it is in the game.
+S+
t
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To produce the top aerodynamic efficiency from the laminar flow, an absolutely smooth surface was required. The engineers planned to paint and fill the wing surface to provide the necessary unvarying surface. The surface of the wing surface had to have an exceptionally smooth finish with less than .0005 of an inch surface roughness tolerated, and a maximum wave allowance was .0001 of an inch in any two inches of surface.13 Countersunk rivets, Dzus fasteners, secured panels while still providing a smooth surface.14
Figure 1. Wing Cross Sections15
7
During acceptance trials in Britain the aircraft was sprayed with a high-speed glossy paint finish to determine the actual effect of the finish when compared with a “standard” paint scheme. The lack of any discernible difference between the resulting flight performance using the two aircraft finishes surprised the engineers. It was concluded that the actual design and construction, especially the external smoothness could not be improved upon, and the design was especially aerodynamically “clean.”16
Arms and Armour Press, 1989), 31. 14 Robert W. Gruenhagen, Mustang: The Story of the P-51 Fighter, (New York: Arco Publishing, Inc., 1976), 43. 15 Alfred Price, Fighter Aircraft, Combat Development in World War Two, (London:
Arms and Armour Press, 1989), 31. 16 Ibid., 57.
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oh ok thanks wagger. the british were happy, did the engineers ever conclude that the flow was what they were hoping for or not?
i am not clear whether the wing gave them the results they wanted in the unpainted state,
or whether it did not give them those results even when painted ...
did they ever state their conclusions?
+S+
t
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Why do so many people hinge the ability of a fighter on its turn radius?
Because we all know that the only way to fight is lufberry turns!
ack-ack
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Thorsim, give it up. There is no way the Fw-190 has lighter wingloading unless you enormously fudge the fuel load in the 190s favor. Comparing internal fuel loading for similar range is not fudging...comparing a Pony that has burned off most of the aux tank and jettisoned the drops in preparation to fight a 190 that just burned a quarter of its tank getting to the fight is about as accurate a real-word situational setup as you are going to get. Comparing a 190 with full internal against a P-51D in a state it was never meant to fight in and almost never *did* fight in-full aux tank and two drops-IS fudging beyond allowable bounds.
Oddly, I've heard the Co-E of lift for the P-51 quoted at everything from 1.2-1.5. But incontravertably, the 1G stall speed is proportional to the relationship between available lift and the plane's weight. There can be no question the Pony, stalling at a lower speed, has a better lift loading.
So again, from a physics standpoint, there is no reason to suspect the 190 of being a superior turner to the Pony, and there is no sign in the historical record that there was true. Meanwhile, there are huge numbers of reports of P-51s turning well with 109s, which IS odd.
BTW, I have more sorties in the 190 family than I have any other plane type. I am not against the plane. I probably have more sorties in it that you have sorties period. If you want to question something, question the s.l speed of the 190 A-5, not the relative turn performance of the P-51D and 190.
point being one of the FWs should clearly turn better than the p51s depending on what HTC deems most important in their physics model.
There is no "deeming one factor" most important. I assure you that Hitech CAN rattle the mathematical formula for turn radius and turn rate off the top of his head, and that is what is used to define plane performance.
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you post no sources except what is represented in the game, which refuses to show its sources ...
why don't you give up i have no doubt you can make the game represent what you want and you still refuse to address the planes with no gas or with equal fuel loads, you sir are the one fudging things not the historians.
you focus on wing loading when it works for you, then dismiss it when it works against you.
at least one of the 190s must clearly out turn the p51 that is just how the math puts things, you can protest all you want but the numbers are the numbers.
nice avoiding the flaps btw, like they don't make all the difference. :aok
Thorsim, give it up. There is no way the Fw-190 has lighter wingloading unless you enormously fudge the fuel load in the 190s favor. Comparing internal fuel loading for similar range is not fudging...comparing a Pony that has burned off most of the aux tank and jettisoned the drops in preparation to fight a 190 that just burned a quarter of its tank getting to the fight is about as accurate a real-word situational setup as you are going to get. Comparing a 190 with full internal against a P-51D in a state it was never meant to fight in and almost never *did* fight in-full aux tank and two drops-IS fudging beyond allowable bounds.
Oddly, I've heard the Co-E of lift for the P-51 quoted at everything from 1.2-1.5. But incontravertably, the 1G stall speed is proportional to the relationship between available lift and the plane's weight. There can be no question the Pony, stalling at a lower speed, has a better lift loading.
So again, from a physics standpoint, there is no reason to suspect the 190 of being a superior turner to the Pony, and there is no sign in the historical record that there was true. Meanwhile, there are huge numbers of reports of P-51s turning well with 109s, which IS odd.
BTW, I have more sorties in the 190 family than I have any other plane type. I am not against the plane. I probably have more sorties in it that you have sorties period. If you want to question something, question the s.l speed of the 190 A-5, not the relative turn performance of the P-51D and 190.
There is no "deeming one factor" most important. I assure you that Hitech CAN rattle the mathematical formula for turn radius and turn rate off the top of his head, and that is what is used to define plane performance.
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Thor the point I am trying to get across is based on the answer of BnZs Inf reference to Maneuverability at high speeds. It did not have the compressibility, problems of most designs during the time period and that helped it in high speed maneuvers.
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Thor the point I am trying to get across is based on the answer of BnZs Inf reference to Maneuverability at high speeds. It did not have the compressibility, problems of most designs during the time period and that helped it in high speed maneuvers.
ahh right wagger i think you made that point well, others did also.
i was curious as to just what the engineers were surprised about achieving the desired effect with a "dirty" wing?,
or surprised by not achieving the effect they wanted at all clean wing or dirty?
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t
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you post no sources except what is represented in the game, which refuses to show its sources ...
AHII accurately represents the weights at combat conditions. HTC is punctillous about these things. I use the game because it is an easy way to compare known loadouts, instead of guessing if X quoted loadout from other sources represents guns, ammo, full aux tanks, drops, etc.
why don't you give up i have no doubt you can make the game represent what you want and you still refuse to address the planes with no gas or with equal fuel loads, you sir are the one fudging things not the historians.
A P-51D with full internal and two drops does not represent equal fuel loads stacked up against a 190 with full internal. The P-51D is carrying vastly more fuel under that arrangement. It represents a configuration in which the P-51D obviously did not generally fight, since the aux tank was burned first or left empty on shorter range missions, and the drop tanks would be discarded.
you focus on wing loading when it works for you, then dismiss it when it works against you.
The 190's wing-loading is clearly higher than the P-51's unless you are loading the P-51 in a manner which does reflect weights at which they were actually fought. However, it is possible that if the Clmax of the 190 were enough higher than the P-51, it might cancel out the difference in basic wing-loading. So how can we most easily compare the ratio of total lift to weight for both planes? Stall speeds, they are proportional to the relationship between weight and lift available. The plane which stalls at 127mph IAS simply does not have as much lift available in relationship to its weight as one that stalls at 100mph IAS.
at least one of the 190s must clearly out turn the p51 that is just how the math puts things, you can protest all you want but the numbers are the numbers.
You have demonstrated nothing mathematically except that you can give the P-51D roughly the same wingloading as a 190D with full internal IF you weight the P-51D down with loading that it was not fought at, enough internal and external to fly for five times as long the 190 can on full fuel. The relative stall speeds of the P-51 an 190 incontravertably demonstrates that you are wrong about lift loading.
nice avoiding the flaps btw, like they don't make all the difference. :aok
The P-51, like other USAAF planes, has flaps that were explicitly designed to aid in maneuvering and specifically rated for high airspeeds to do just that. The 190 does not. Get over it.
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yea well until you post your data and it's source there is no point in discussing reality with you and your video game speculation ...
i am sorry you are dissatisfied with HTCs treatment of the p51 ...
as far as the designers of the 190 and its flaps go, why do you suppose they had a "flight" deployment setting if the designers only intended them to be used for landing?
you do realize the designers did not write/publish the POHs don't you?
that is my problem with them being represented as the ultimate authority in such cases.
for example according to the POH the p51 could not be expected to do a snap roll without departing,
but you knew that right?
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t
AHII accurately represents the weights at combat conditions. HTC is punctillous about these things. I use the game because it is an easy way to compare known loadouts, instead of guessing if X quoted loadout from other sources represents guns, ammo, full aux tanks, drops, etc.
A P-51D with full internal and two drops does not represent equal fuel loads stacked up against a 190 with full internal. The P-51D is carrying vastly more fuel under that arrangement. It represents a configuration in which the P-51D obviously did not generally fight, since the aux tank was burned first or left empty on shorter range missions, and the drop tanks would be discarded.
The 190's wing-loading is clearly higher than the P-51's unless you are loading the P-51 in a manner which does reflect weights at which they were actually fought. However, it is possible that if the Clmax of the 190 were enough higher than the P-51, it might cancel out the difference in basic wing-loading. So how can we most easily compare the ratio of total lift to weight for both planes? Stall speeds, they are proportional to the relationship between weight and lift available. The plane which stalls at 127mph IAS simply does not have as much lift available in relationship to its weight as one that stalls at 100mph IAS.
You have demonstrated nothing mathematically except that you can give the P-51D roughly the same wingloading as a 190D with full internal IF you weight the P-51D down with loading that it was not fought at, enough internal and external to fly for five times as long the 190 can on full fuel. The relative stall speeds of the P-51 an 190 incontravertably demonstrates that you are wrong about lift loading.
The P-51, like other USAAF planes, has flaps that were explicitly designed to aid in maneuvering and specifically rated for high airspeeds to do just that. The 190 does not. Get over it.
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Because we all know that the only way to fight is lufberry turns!
ack-ack
Its an improvement over the HO-and-run routine.
Ill take it!
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yea well until you post your data and it's source there is no point in discussing reality with you and your video game speculation ...
Dude, are you guys discussing real life performance or in game performance?
If it's in game - you could easily just load up the damn P51D and FW190 and compare the weights using the E6B. All the data is quite clear that within the game, the P51D will out turn all variants of the FW190.
If it's real life performance, you can find the weight easily Googled.
P51D (from The Great Book of Fighters)
Empty weight: 7,635 lb
Loaded weight: 9,200 lb
FW190A8
Empty weight: 7,060 lb
Gross weight: 9,735 lb
http://www.aero-web.org/specs/fockwulf/fw-190a8.htm
A3
Empty Weight: 6,393 lb
Gross Weight: 8,770 lb
http://www.aero-web.org/specs/fockwulf/fw-190a3.htm
Thor - where are your numbers from? You give the data but no citation... bad form when trying to run a critical debate.
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the graphical data or more correctly the data with the graphics, was from this bbs ...
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/
which is pretty particular about their data, however i also referenced green "famous fighters"
and another source on line and none of the data agreed with each other which is why i suggested we went with empty weights which eliminates some subjectivity ...
however that is not acceptable and since HTC does not share their sources i suggested we end the discussion.
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t
Dude, are you guys discussing real life performance or in game performance?
If it's in game - you could easily just load up the damn P51D and FW190 and compare the weights using the E6B. All the data is quite clear that within the game, the P51D will out turn all variants of the FW190.
If it's real life performance, you can find the weight easily Googled.
P51D (from The Great Book of Fighters)
Empty weight: 7,635 lb
Loaded weight: 9,200 lb
FW190A8
Empty weight: 7,060 lb
Gross weight: 9,735 lb
http://www.aero-web.org/specs/fockwulf/fw-190a8.htm
A3
Empty Weight: 6,393 lb
Gross Weight: 8,770 lb
http://www.aero-web.org/specs/fockwulf/fw-190a3.htm
Thor - where are your numbers from? You give the data but no citation... bad form when trying to run a critical debate.
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What you are looking for Thor I believe was in the preceeding reply of mine.
The lack of any discernible difference between the resulting flight performance using the two aircraft finishes surprised the engineers. It was concluded that the actual design and construction, especially the external smoothness could not be improved upon, and the design was especially aerodynamically “clean.”16
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yea but laminar flow in the pony (as i understand it) was sort of like the elliptical wing in the spit in that although clearly having it's advantages they also never achieved the design projections for one reason or another and therefore never really lived up to the expectations of the designer.
i am pretty sure this is true for the spit because of the twist that was added to the wing for handling purposes it never really produced the efficiency that the pure elliptical wing would have, it also rolled poorly hence the later clipped wings.
in the ponies case true laminar flow was supposed to achieve great things, but even though the pony was very slick, from what i understand not achieving true laminar flow left it under achieving in some areas.
now i am not positive about this and i am posting for clarification so don't get all twisted up as the above are more questions or requests for clarification than statements prepared to be defended as fact.
i.e. these are things i have heard or read can't really remember where and was wondering if anyone had the
real story.
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t
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No... laminar flow was considered by even the experts to be difficult to achieve in reality because it was believed that laminar flow would only happen on a wing that remained in pristine condition. In the war as it turned out they were mistaken at least partially. The P-51D at its cruise altitude and speed probably did not have any tail deflection (as designed to achieve the utmost aerodynamic efficiency) and therefore with the design of the wing it also had the lowest induced drag of any plane of the time even when laminar flow was not perfectly achieved. All of the wind tunnel testing of the design indicated that the filling and painting and polishing on the wing needed to be maintained to keep the laminar flow undisturbed but in reality what happened proved that theory in error. The British discovered this early on when ground crews working on the wings had marred the finish and scuffed the underlying surface and in order to cover up the mistake they turned to a thick gloss coat of paint which in no way disturbed the aircraft performance. The early Mustang Is that the British used in Tac/R were maintained in the crudest of conditions in some cases and yet maintained their performance edge.
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I have read that Nakajima designed the Ki-84's wing to use laminar flow. I wonder if they were at all successful in actually doing so?