Author Topic: Thoughts on Damage Model  (Read 4568 times)

Offline Saxman

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Thoughts on Damage Model
« on: October 03, 2009, 07:39:47 PM »
In a recent discussion regarding the damage model, I recall hitech mentioning that one reason that it's done with the way it is is to remove randomness: People would just get mad and complain if the game randomly decides a round cut your control lines. Modeling such components would certainly be a complex process, as well.

However as a result of the "all or nothing" model, there's a bias favoring cannon-armed planes to a degree beyond historical performance. Simply put, machine guns could inflict fatal damage just by shredding an airfoil beyond its ability to sustain lift, or by severing control line, fuel lines, and various other internal parts.

The game does already track "damage points" for each component to determine when it should fail. What if the % to which, say, a wing is damaged before it pops off directly translates into a given loss of lift. In other words, you rake an enemy's wing and deal 15% damage. That part of the wing (let's say it was the outer half) loses 15% of the amount of lift it generates.

The same can be applied to control surfaces and flaps as well. If the aileron takes 50% damage, it's only 50% as effective as it should be.

Wings, wingtips, vertical stab, horizontal stab, rudder, ailerons, flaps and elevators would all be affected in this manner.

This will help alleviate the exaggerated advantage of cannon without introducing a random element into the damage model, or needing to track dozens of additional components in the flight model.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 10:10:10 PM by Saxman »
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2009, 07:50:47 PM »
Been suggested before, but +1000000. And for bombers, if your carrying a bomb or torpedo, and a bullet hits it, you have what looks like spauntanious combustion :D. I say we modle that as well. There are a certian number of bomb slots for each load, and each one has its place, emptying from bottom front then bottom of the next row, and so on. If a bullet hits your plane where that bomb is stored, you die....
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2009, 07:52:07 PM »
I don't really agree.  When a cannon shell explodes it sends shrapnel out that is just as likely to sever a cable as machine gun fire is.  If you look at a plane that has been shot up, even machine guns don't hit with that many rounds.
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2009, 08:00:29 PM »
I don't really agree.  When a cannon shell explodes it sends shrapnel out that is just as likely to sever a cable as machine gun fire is.  If you look at a plane that has been shot up, even machine guns don't hit with that many rounds.
Your right, 8 .50's firing at 800rpm for a solid 3 secs DON'T put a lot of lead on a target. Plus cannon shells only fragment so much. 1000 fragments the size of a grain of sand won't do as much as 20 quarter sized fragments.
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Offline Ghosth

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2009, 08:18:53 PM »
Nemisis you have any idea of what the odds are of any given bullet penetrating a bomb casing?

First, you have a curved surface, so unless it hits exactly 90 degrees chances are its going to bounce off.

Second if it did punch a hole through, that will not necessarily set off the explosive.
Granted, you might start it on fire, but there is a big difference between a fire and a explosion.

A bomb cooking off would be in effect a really wicked blow torch for a few seconds.
But only in 1 direction, like a jet, and only for seconds.

Most military explosives are actually have fairly high tolerances for pressure.
Unlike say an old stick of TNT which a rifle bullet could set off.

But just to cut the chase, I'll gladly donate to a fund to supply you with .303 ammo and a 1k bomb for you to shoot at providing you do so from a range of no more than 25 yards.  Let me know how that works out for you.   :)

Offline Ghosth

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2009, 08:20:06 PM »
Sorry about the Hijack Saxman.

Not totally sure I agree with you, but you raise a good question.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2009, 08:32:29 PM »
Your right, 8 .50's firing at 800rpm for a solid 3 secs DON'T put a lot of lead on a target. Plus cannon shells only fragment so much. 1000 fragments the size of a grain of sand won't do as much as 20 quarter sized fragments.
No, they don't, not when the target is only in the stream for .2 seconds and the shots are distributed over a good portion of it.  If you can hold the fire on the target, you could do so with cannons too.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2009, 08:34:19 PM »
Karnak,

Yes, I fully realize that a cannon shell is easily able to sever a cable, but I think you're missing my point: We don't model that ANYWAY. The damage model as it is is all or nothing, which still exaggerates the effect of cannon vs. machine guns. That is NOT to say the cannon wouldn't still be more devastating, but I think machine guns would gain far more benefit from damage % having a direct effect on the amount of lift provided by an airfoil or control surface than would cannon.

And again, it's a way to make a more detailed damage model using hard numerical data rather than a random dice roll.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Nemisis

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2009, 08:36:18 PM »
First, you have a curved surface, so unless it hits exactly 90 degrees chances are its going to bounce off.

hmmm, good point. Lets up it to a cannon shell


Most military explosives are actually have fairly high tolerances for pressure.
Unlike say an old stick of TNT which a rifle bullet could set off.

Yup, but they weren't made shock proof untill the 50's. And this is in the 40's so your SOL. A bullet hitting a pice of TNT from the 40's would set it off.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2009, 08:40:02 PM »
Nemisis,

There's FAR too many variables. Could it happen? Maybe. But it's probably a one in a million shot. My post is aimed at ways to increase the robustness of the damage model WITHOUT resorting to random chance, which this would require.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline branch37

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2009, 08:46:19 PM »
I like the idea Sax  :salute

I would also like to see drop tanks catch on fire :x :x, probably wouldnt happen very often but it would be cool nonetheless.

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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2009, 08:59:10 PM »
OK then...then when a bomber crashes, can we have its whole load go off at one time?


I like the idea Sax  :salute

I would also like to see drop tanks catch on fire :x :x, probably wouldnt happen very often but it would be cool nonetheless.
+100
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Offline EskimoJoe

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2009, 09:53:34 PM »
I definitely support this idea, Sax.   :aok

Whenever I run out of cannon rounds in my spitfire, I immediately want to head home. Those little .303s don't do squat  :(
Put a +1 on your geekness atribute  :aok

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2009, 10:02:52 PM »
I'm all for revamping the damage model.  I'd suggest studying how Il-2 does it, and then improving on that.
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Offline Greziz

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Re: Thoughts on Damage Model
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2009, 04:06:48 AM »
Sax I would 100 percent love this as is when I am flying the all or nothingness of being hit has begun to sadden me beside some planes like spits and hurricanes that had canvas wings sometimes would simply have the cannon shells pass through harmlessly like an mg round so long as they didnt hit something stable inside the wing.