Author Topic: Should I be disappointed?  (Read 1917 times)

Offline Lusche

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2009, 10:39:50 AM »
Certainly if the N Jug is an 8 ENY, the Pony needs to be a 5.

But N Jug is 10 ENY, not 8 ;)
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2009, 10:47:25 AM »
I think the P-51D is a solid 5 ENY aircraft, and I fly it probably half of my sorties.  Certainly if the N Jug is an 8 ENY, the Pony needs to be a 5.

Regardless, I know you won't agree, and that's ok.  I think all of the adjustments make sense.

It is not compared to the other 5 ENY aircraft. Lusche can put his figures for 2008 up again. Of the four most popular aircraft, (P-51, Spit17, La7, N1K) the P-51D had the lowest K/D. K/D usually tracks pretty well with speed...yet the vastly slower Spit and N1K had a higher K/D than the Mustang. It would be nice if we had kills/time figure for the various airplane models, I'm sure all 3 of the other big four would vastly exceed the Pony in that metric.  The Pony's K/D was lower than that of the Typhoon and 190 A-5 for goodness sakes. And ENY of 5 for the Pony makes absolutely no sense when when the La7's ENY is 8. Hell, an ENY of 5 for  the Spit16 makes no sense when the La7's ENY is 8, because the Spit16 does not have the speed to disengage at will from the typical MA crowd, OR chase down the fast but unmaneuverable LW E-fighters for easy kills like the La7 does.  The La7 out-runs everything unperked down low where it counts in the MA, and out-turns everything near it in the speed league (it can kill a poorly flown Spit easily), so its ENY does not make sense.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2009, 10:59:34 AM »
Lusche can put his figures for 2008 up again. Of the four most popular aircraft, (P-51, Spit17, La7, N1K) the P-51D had the lowest K/D.

Since mid 2008, N1K and La-7 usage has dropped considerably. Last time I checked (2-3 months ago), La-7 ended up #9 in "usage" (K+D).

I'm still somewhat unhappy about Skuzzy removing the # of sorties column from the stats  :P
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2009, 11:01:44 AM »
Friends can be made on all sides...... squads can change sides easily too.

So it is only an issue for those who freely choose not to switch. So in fact it is like choosing a green car then complaining because you don't like green.

I've found that folks with few perks often have few because they burn them as soon as they can get that new toy. Look at it more as an account. Feed it for a rainy day. Don't let those perks burn a hole in your pocket.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2009, 11:02:07 AM »
Since mid 2008, N1K and La-7 usage has dropped considerably. Last time I checked (2-3 months ago), La-7 ended up #9 in "usage" (K+D).

I'm still somewhat unhappy about Skuzzy removing the # of sorties column from the stats  :P

I've flown her since then. She is still a monster and I like the new canopy *better*. Thinner frames and more vis in most directions. Flown into the right situations, it could possibly the best non-perker for getting up, killing, and getting down in short order for the best combination of k/d and k/t for score-potatoing. Of course, vets will continue to fly it almost always *only* for desperate base defense, so arena-wide figures will likely never reflect this potential.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 11:07:50 AM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BnZs

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2009, 11:04:20 AM »
Friends can be made on all sides...... squads can change sides easily too.

So it is only an issue for those who freely choose not to switch. So in fact it is like choosing a green car then complaining because you don't like green.

I've found that folks with few perks often have few because they burn them as soon as they can get that new toy. Look at it more as an account. Feed it for a rainy day. Don't let those perks burn a hole in your pocket.

There aren't any perk planes I really like.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Stoney

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2009, 01:56:25 PM »
It is not compared to the other 5 ENY aircraft.

Hypothetically speaking, put the best pilot you can think of for each airframe, and have them join a typical MA fight.  The guy in the Pony-D will be the most successful.  While the N1K2 and Spit 16 are awesome in close, the LA-7 and P-51D really pace all 4 aircraft.  In my opinion, the P-51D is probably the best overall non-perk fighter in the game, with the LA-7 being a relative close second.  Speed, endurance, credible firepower, utility--it has it all.  When flown to its strengths, it can basically engage or disengage at any in-game altitude at will.  Combined with its popularity, I say the 5 ENY is pretty well deserved.

If I take up a Spit 16, and fly against players that are foolish enough to stay in my performance envelope, I'll school them.  The problem is that my "box" is rather small.  The N1K2's is even smaller.  The LA-7 has a huge envelope as long as it has fuel, and even though the Pony-D has a smaller envelope, it can "do it over Berlin", so-to-speak.

Perhaps I'll try flying just these 4 for a tour and see if my outlook changes.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2009, 02:06:39 PM »
Hypothetically speaking, put the best pilot you can think of for each airframe, and have them join a typical MA fight.  The guy in the Pony-D will be the most successful.  While the N1K2 and Spit 16 are awesome in close, the LA-7 and P-51D really pace all 4 aircraft.  In my opinion, the P-51D is probably the best overall non-perk fighter in the game, with the LA-7 being a relative close second.  Speed, endurance, credible firepower, utility--it has it all.  When flown to its strengths, it can basically engage or disengage at any in-game altitude at will.  Combined with its popularity, I say the 5 ENY is pretty well deserved.

If I take up a Spit 16, and fly against players that are foolish enough to stay in my performance envelope, I'll school them.  The problem is that my "box" is rather small.  The N1K2's is even smaller.  The LA-7 has a huge envelope as long as it has fuel, and even though the Pony-D has a smaller envelope, it can "do it over Berlin", so-to-speak.

Perhaps I'll try flying just these 4 for a tour and see if my outlook changes.

And yet of the four most popular planes the Pony's k/d was lowest, despite the fact we all know it is the most likely to be flown in the most conservative manner of all four. Another issue is k/t...sure the Pony can live to fight another day better than the Spit, flown conservatively, but the Spit can actually *kill* much easier than the Pony against more A/C types from more positions, i.e. energy advantage OR equality OR disadvantage. Fighter score is NOT just made up of k/d, and this is a good thing...if all this fuel and speed is used by the pony to fly around for a long time getting a lucky kill seldom, I don't think that nessecarily makes it a "superior" MA craft even if it doesn't die very often either.

About the La...if you wanted to rack up a good score with an La, you'd just fly it to the right kinds of base defense (not too desperate, hopefully some vulnerable aircraft like 110 "misshuns" coming in) and learn to conserve fuel. By dropping the RPMs on the La7 to 2200 or so, the time on full internal goes up to about 30 minutes, and with the La still performing roughly as well as a P-47D does at low alts in climb and top speed. And all that engine power is still available at the touch of the WEP button.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 02:14:18 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2009, 02:19:31 PM »
I will chime in that the pony is probably being flown by many new or newer folks to the game. It is a very well known bird.
While the newer person may fly it closer to how it should be flown at the start, he/she will get in a hurry and find himself with low E very soon. This will effect k/d across the board.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2009, 02:26:52 PM »
I will chime in that the pony is probably being flown by many new or newer folks to the game. It is a very well known bird.
While the newer person may fly it closer to how it should be flown at the start, he/she will get in a hurry and find himself with low E very soon. This will effect k/d across the board.

The Spitfire is about equally popular with the very new, perhaps more so, because we always advise them to fly Spits. The Spit is very well known in the public. It is also more likely to be used for desperate base defense instead of pick and run.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BnZs

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2009, 02:33:00 PM »
It suddenly struck me as very funny that this forum spends a considerable amount of time railing against "pickers and runners", speaking of the inneffectiveness of "bore and zoom", and that it is more or less well known that while speed allows you to choose your fights, maneuverability and thrust/weight are more or less what allow you options for winning them...neither metric being something where the Pony stacks up well vs. most other LW planes. We also have long discussions about how the P-51 is not undermodeled,how its reputation is exaggerated because the Luftwaffe had no vets, no fuel, and no numbers, etc. Yet suddenly when the hated, picking and running, History-channel over-hyped P51 gets its ENY raised, everyone jumps on the bandwagon, even if that means doing something so ludicrous as to call it the best non-perked fighter. At least the damned fool who called for the P-51D to be perked just because he hates all the runners in it was being honest, although that is illogical because the "evil" pick n' runners can just as profitably move to D9s and Typhoons.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 05:31:57 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2009, 02:48:22 PM »
Pick and run is boring.  :D
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2009, 05:34:28 PM »
We also have long discussions about how the P-51 is not undermodeled,how its reputation is exaggerated because the Luftwaffe had no vets, no fuel, and no numbers, etc. Yet suddenly when the hated, picking and running, History-channel over-hyped gets its ENY raised, everyone jumps on the bandwagon, even if that means doing something so ludicrous as to call it the best non-perked fighter.

My previous discussions of the P-51D in no way contradict the opinion I've stated here, and I don't appreciate the "ludicrous" descriptor--I don't typically make irrational arguments on this board do I?  I've seen some of those comments in the discussions you allude to, but not from me.  I think the engineering of the aircraft was probably some of the best in the war, regardless of platform or powerplant.  Just because it doesn't fare well when compared with individual in-game metrics doesn't mean that the sum is a poor aircraft.

Also, I think BnZ (the tactic  :)) in-game is smart with some aircraft.  Just because some guy in a Hurri II is baiting you on 200 doesn't mean that everyone subscribes to that theory.  Is anyone going to criticize a Jug pilot for not turn-fighting a Zero?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 05:36:22 PM by Stoney »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2009, 05:52:15 PM »
My previous discussions of the P-51D in no way contradict the opinion I've stated here, and I don't appreciate the "ludicrous" descriptor--I don't typically make irrational arguments on this board do I?  I've seen some of those comments in the discussions you allude to, but not from me.  I think the engineering of the aircraft was probably some of the best in the war, regardless of platform or powerplant.  Just because it doesn't fare well when compared with individual in-game metrics doesn't mean that the sum is a poor aircraft.

Also, I think BnZ (the tactic  :)) in-game is smart with some aircraft.  Just because some guy in a Hurri II is baiting you on 200 doesn't mean that everyone subscribes to that theory.  Is anyone going to criticize a Jug pilot for not turn-fighting a Zero?
True but still boring.

You won't really know till you try it though  :D
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Should I be disappointed?
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2009, 06:09:05 PM »
My previous discussions of the P-51D in no way contradict the opinion I've stated here, and I don't appreciate the "ludicrous" descriptor--I don't typically make irrational arguments on this board do I?  I've seen some of those comments in the discussions you allude to, but not from me.  I think the engineering of the aircraft was probably some of the best in the war, regardless of platform or powerplant.  Just because it doesn't fare well when compared with individual in-game metrics doesn't mean that the sum is a poor aircraft.

I don't have a problem with you, but I *do* consider the idea that the P-51 is the best unperked fighter rather ludicrous.

Poor aircraft? Mediocre is more more like it. It is mediocre by most metrics, has a rather low k/d for an aircraft of its speed, and in my experience has fewer options available to it for ACM than aircraft which have better turning, better e-building properties, and/or less unstable departure traits when slowed down. So...where is the thing that makes it the "best"?

BTW, In R/L I believe the P-51 was the BEST airframe of the war, because you could stick rather less engine in it than one would like for a fighter of its weight, stick enough fuel tankage in it to fly to Germany and back, and it STILL performed very well. You take the same airframe and redesign from the ground up for nothing but performance, adding as much horsepower and removing as much weight as possible, and it would be insane, as the P-51H showed.

Also, I think BnZ (the tactic  :)) in-game is smart with some aircraft.  Just because some guy in a Hurri II is baiting you on 200 doesn't mean that everyone subscribes to that theory.  Is anyone going to criticize a Jug pilot for not turn-fighting a Zero?


I'm not running down doing what you need to do with vs another aircraft. I'm saying the vaunted top speed metric by itself is not the asset for a fighter some think it is, and besides the P-51 is *not* the fastest non-perker.

Lets look at Jug vs. Zero. The Jug can come in with an E advantage and use vertical tactics to try and gain a shot against the Zeke for a certain period of time until the E states inevitably equal. The Jug is not superior to the Zeke in thrust weight, or in E retention under Gs. That means the Jug will always eventually run out of E advantage if the maneuvering goes on long enough, and be very unlikely to build a usable E advantage over a Co-E Zeke or better Zeke, especially in a reasonable period of time. It can try extending abit and then climbing at a speed slightly greater than the Zeke can run level, but this would take a long time to build significant E and the Zeke will probably just climb abit himself instead of running level in a hopeless chase and gradually loosing relative E state. The Jug's best option is to drag and call for a clear.

Now insert the K-4 into the equation in the Jug's place. The K-4 turns better than the Jug, but not so much as to really be an issue when facing something as maneuverable as the Zeke. What gives the Kurt vastly more options is the fact that its thrust/weight means it can hold onto an E advantage longer, perhaps indefinitely,  AND build a usable advantage much more quickly. Clearly, fighter for fighter, the K4 can stand on a much more equal footing with the Zeke than the Jug.

Energy tactics are less simple, direct, and intuitive than angles tactics. They exist almost entirely because of the need to fight more maneuverable aircraft or to keep E state as high as possible because of the threat of multiple bandits. If you need to use energy tactics against vastly more maneuverable bandit, it behooves you to have better thrust/weight (so you can hold on to an E advantage longer or BUILD an E advantage over the more maneuverable aircraft), excellent roll rate, and excellent firepower, so you can make the most of fleeting snapshots. The P-51D has mediocre climb, decent roll, and mediocre firepower. That BTW is why I consider the P-47N very close to being the equal of the P-51D...I find its roll rate and firepower (and in bad situations, its slow handling and toughness) very good compensations for the lack of non-WEP performance, both planes being used in essentially the same manner in the MA. I consider the D9 overall probably very slightly the P-51's superior in the MA for similar reasons, even though the D9 is one of the few planes the Pony does indeed tend to "own" in a 1v1 co-e "duel" between equal pilots.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."