Author Topic: Wing loading  (Read 628 times)

Offline uptown

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Wing loading
« on: October 07, 2009, 06:39:23 AM »
Could someone explain to me what wing loading is? Every once in awhile when I'm fighting and have someone on my six my plane seems to just run out of energy and is on the verge of a stall even though my airspeed indicator says I'm going 200 or 250. It usually happens when I'm on the deck and trying to make a sharp turn to the right of left in order to get a scissors going for a overshoot. It's like i'm completely out of power and the plane just feels like a brick.

I suspect this has something to do with wing loading but I'm not sure. I'm usually into the flaps a notch or 2 and she just won't turn. The only way to bring my plane out of this is to just straighten out and buildup speed, but this just leaves the enemy with a good gun solution.
It seems I have good speed but not the energy to maneuver. I've always thought that speed basically is energy. But sometimes that doesn't seem to be the case.  :salute
 
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 06:56:24 AM by uptown »
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Offline FLS

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Re: Wing loading
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2009, 09:05:18 AM »
Wing loading is the loaded weight of the aircraft divided by the area of the wing. Sounds like your issue might be too much AOA. Try easing off the stick a little and see if you get a better turn.  Pulling harder only increases your turn up to the point where pulling harder decreases your turn.

Offline Traveler

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Re: Wing loading
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2009, 02:44:32 PM »
Could someone explain to me what wing loading is? Every once in awhile when I'm fighting and have someone on my six my plane seems to just run out of energy and is on the verge of a stall even though my airspeed indicator says I'm going 200 or 250. It usually happens when I'm on the deck and trying to make a sharp turn to the right of left in order to get a scissors going for a overshoot. It's like i'm completely out of power and the plane just feels like a brick.

I suspect this has something to do with wing loading but I'm not sure. I'm usually into the flaps a notch or 2 and she just won't turn. The only way to bring my plane out of this is to just straighten out and buildup speed, but this just leaves the enemy with a good gun solution.
It seems I have good speed but not the energy to maneuver. I've always thought that speed basically is energy. But sometimes that doesn't seem to be the case.  :salute
 


Wing loading is the loaded weight of the aircraft divided by the area of the wing. Sounds like your issue might be too much AOA. Try easing off the stick a little and see if you get a better turn.  Pulling harder only increases your turn up to the point where pulling harder decreases your turn.


That is the answer to your wing loading question.  The question you need to ask and have answered is Why am I stalling in a turn even though my airspeed is 200 to 250 MPH.  The answer is you are experiencing an accelerated stall.  The best example is the dive bomber pilot ,  diving in on his target at 400 MPH , releasing his bomb and pulling hard on the stick to pull out of the dive.   Pulling so quickly and so hard that his aircraft does nothing but continue its head long rush down. 

Stalls (the ability of the wing to produce lift) has nothing to do with airspeed. It has everything to do with Angle of Attack (AOA) and relative wind (the angle at which wind (air flow) strikes the leading edge of the airfoil).  When the AOA becomes excessive, as in a hard turning flat turn and you are pulling a lot of G’s no matter what airspeed you are flying if you exceed the AOA for the relative wind present , the wing will stall.

Don’t miss understand what I am saying.  Any aircraft needs a minimum airflow over the wing to be able to fly and we measure that airflow with the airspeed instrument.  At any airspeed the wind will develop Lift.  When you go fast the wing develop excessive lift and can climb.

As an exercise you may want to try flying and practicing the Accelerated Stall.  Climb to 5000,  fly straight and level maintain 5000 and reduce power,  slow the aircraft until the stall warning begins to chirp.  Note the airspeed, you are very close to your power off stall speed.  Now add full power, as the airspeed begins to climb raise the nose about 15degrees and  roll into a 60degree bank turn left or right and pull back hard on the stick, the AOA will become excessive and the wing will stall. 

What you should see is the airspeed will be well above the power off stall speed of the aircraft.  Reinforcing the fact that airspeed does not cause a stall, excessive AOA does.  The high or outside wing will stall and the wing will drop, you should end up with wings level and the nose level.  Now place the controls in the stall recovery position. That’s no back pressure on the stick perhaps even nose low and the rudder centered. Adjust power as needed to maintain level flight.

Notice that the stall recover does not include application of power.  That is because a stall recovery is not performed with power, the elevator is the only control needed to recover from any  form of a stall.
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Offline uptown

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Re: Wing loading
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 08:17:48 PM »
Ah ha! Ok I got it. An accelerated stall! Sounds like I have some reading to do on a few things  :lol Not being a pilot in the real world, i'm not to hip to the techincal aspects on questions like these. It's great to have guys in here that can explain these things.


[/quote]  That is because a stall recovery is not performed with power, the elevator is the only control needed to recover from any  form of a stall.

That right there tells me I may want to start manual trimming in some fights. :aok
 
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Offline FLS

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Re: Wing loading
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 09:11:22 PM »
Keep in mind that as G load increases so does stall speed. If you stall at 100 mph at 1 G you'll stall at 200 mph (approximately) at 4 Gs. Note that you increase G load by increasing AOA. Flaps lower your stall speed which is why you can pull more G at a given speed as you add flaps. Use your G ( acceleration ) meter and note how speed and flaps affects how much G you can pull.

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Wing loading
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2009, 06:44:19 AM »
Take a look at the EM diagram below.  The blue line on the left is the "lift limit".  Anytime you're below corner velocity (in this case 242mph) you can stall the aircraft.  So, as Traveler pointed out, this is the region of accelerated stalls.  The blue line from corner velocity out to Vne is the "load limit".  That means that if you pull hard enough you'll exceed your G limits or, in AH, black out.  The answer is to pay attention to your stall warning and learn to fly on the edge of buffet.

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Offline dtango

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Re: Wing loading
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2009, 03:55:47 PM »
Hi Uptown:

Good to see you!  Anytime you exceed the critical angle of attack (aoa) of the aircraft your wings lose lift and thus "stall" because the wings are no longer generating enough lift to support the weight of the airplane.  This can happen at any speed and when the airplane is "under load" (generating some amount of lift greater than aircraft weight).  Why?  I'll spare you all the aero technicalities but essentially at a certain angle of attack the airflow separates from around the wing which causes all sorts of bad stuff to happen.  Here's a graphical depiction:



This critical angle of attack is what defines the lift limit portion of the graph that Mace refers to.

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Offline uptown

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Re: Wing loading
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2009, 09:13:35 AM »
OK I understand what is happening during an accelerated stall now. The problem I'm trying to work out is recovering from this and regain the advantage after the bad guy is saddled up on me. I believe the accelerated stall can be a good ACM on some instances but the only thing I can find to recover from this is to fly straight and level until my speed picks back up. And that usually means I'm going to the tower in short order.

And howdy Tango  :)
Lighten up Francis

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Wing loading
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2009, 09:31:54 AM »
OK I understand what is happening during an accelerated stall now. The problem I'm trying to work out is recovering from this and regain the advantage after the bad guy is saddled up on me. I believe the accelerated stall can be a good ACM on some instances but the only thing I can find to recover from this is to fly straight and level until my speed picks back up. And that usually means I'm going to the tower in short order.
An accelerated stall is not a good maneuver although it can be used as a last-ditch effort to spoil an nme's gun solution and, potentially, force an overshoot but the problem is that you're now out of both airspeed and control.  At this point, unless your adversary really goofs it up you should be dead.  Once you do stall like this, do not fly "straight and level" (unless you're at ground level).  Put your nose down to lower your AOA and begin accelerating down hill.  Your goal is to regain flying speed and maneuverability and only then can you reasses the situation and formulate a plan to get out of the mess you're in.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 09:33:34 AM by Mace2004 »
Mace
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Offline uptown

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Re: Wing loading
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2009, 09:46:58 AM »
An accelerated stall is not a good maneuver although it can be used as a last-ditch effort to spoil an nme's gun solution and, potentially, force an overshoot but the problem is that you're now out of both airspeed and control.  At this point, unless your adversary really goofs it up you should be dead.  Once you do stall like this, do not fly "straight and level" (unless you're at ground level).  Put your nose down to lower your AOA and begin accelerating down hill.  Your goal is to regain flying speed and maneuverability and only then can you reasses the situation and formulate a plan to get out of the mess you're in.
:lol this is what i was afraid of. I've been doing that to get the overshoot, but if i miss it's all over  :lol And I'm usually on the deck doing it so I can't go down  :uhoh So straight and level is all i can really do at that point. But it sure makes for some fun fights before i have to do that. I reckon I'll go back to the drawing board and try to come up with some other silly move because this one ain't workin out too well  :rofl
Thanks for the reply fellas. :salute
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Wing loading
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2009, 05:05:44 PM »
:lol this is what i was afraid of. I've been doing that to get the overshoot, but if i miss it's all over  :lol And I'm usually on the deck doing it so I can't go down  :uhoh So straight and level is all i can really do at that point. But it sure makes for some fun fights before i have to do that. I reckon I'll go back to the drawing board and try to come up with some other silly move because this one ain't workin out too well  :rofl
Thanks for the reply fellas. :salute
The answer is : Don't Stall.  The objective is to out fly the other guy.  One way to do this in a stall fight is to take your aircraft to the point of a stall, but not cross over that point.  The reason students practice stalls is so that they recognize the signs of a stall before it happens and take corrective action by reducing the AOA.  Slow flight is practiced primarily so the student learns positive aircraft control at airspeeds just above a stall.  That’s because the perfect landing is performed by having the main gear touch down on the runway just as the wing stalls. 

If you are planning to stall fight the enemy that’s fine.  Just remember the stall fight is all about being on the edge of a stall and not actually stalling.
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