Forget about the Spitfire XVI, perk the Hellcat!?!

[bozon]

In the hands of the USN it had a 19 : 1 K/D in WW-ll. Whats that tell you?

19 vulches and 1 auger?

[SlapShot]

19 vulches and 1 auger?

Navy and Marine F6Fs flew 66,530 combat sorties (45% of all fighter sorties of the war, 62,386 sorties were flown from aircraft carriers) and destroyed 5,163 (56% of all Naval/Marine air victories of the war) at a cost of 270 Hellcats (an overall kill-to-loss ratio of 19:1).

The aircraft performed well against the best Japanese opponents :

... 13:1 kill ratio against Mitsubishi A6M
... 9.5:1 against Nakajima Ki-84
... 3.7:1 against Mitsubishi J2M

The F6F became the prime ace-maker aircraft in the American inventory, with 305 Hellcat aces.

[SlapShot]

LIES!!!! the FM-2 sucks.

No doubt !!!

[Karnak]

I've wondered why the J2M has such a, relatively, good K/D rate against the Hellcat.  Did the Japanese put their best remaining pilots in it, or was it that much better than the other Japanese fighters?

[Kazaa]

I've wondered why the J2M has such a, relatively, good K/D rate against the Hellcat.  Did the Japanese put their best remaining pilots in it, or was it that much better than the other Japanese fighters?

Maybe because they were built in so few numbers and didn't see much action?

[Karnak]

Maybe because they were built in so few numbers and didn't see much action?

Assuming a reasonable number were downed, and the 3.7 indicates at least 37 were shot down and 10 Hellcats were lost to them.  That is a large enough number that I'd not expect the number to be that much different than the Ki-84 or A6M.

[Boozeman]

I've wondered why the J2M has such a, relatively, good K/D rate against the Hellcat.  Did the Japanese put their best remaining pilots in it, or was it that much better than the other Japanese fighters?

I think it was the latter, at least against the Hellcat.

[Saxman]

I think it was the latter, at least against the Hellcat.

On the F4U:

The aircraft performed well against the best Japanese opponents with a 12:1 kill ratio against Mitsubishi A6M, 7:1 against Nakajima Ki-84, 13:1 against Kawanishi N1K-J, and 3:1 against Mitsubishi J2M during the last year of the war.

Very close to the F6F against the A6M and J2M, and a pretty impressive score against the N1K (anyone have stats for the F6F vs. the George?). Lower than I expected against the Ki-84, but still not dominated by the F6F in that category.

If that 19:1 ratio is against ALL types--fighters AND bombers--I'm willing to bet that a sizable part of the F6F's kill/loss ratio was influenced by fleet defense against the pretty hopelessly outclassed Japanese carrier-borne bombers and kamikazes towards the end of the war.

[Oldman731]

If that 19:1 ratio is against ALL types--fighters AND bombers--I'm willing to bet that a sizable part of the F6F's kill/loss ratio was influenced by fleet defense against the pretty hopelessly outclassed Japanese carrier-borne bombers and kamikazes towards the end of the war.

Probably true of both the Hellcat and Corsair.  Arguably the superior pilots of the Japanese Army and Navy air forces were mostly gone by the end of the first quarter of 1943, after the 1942 carrier battles and the 1942 Guadalcanal and early 1943 Yamamoto Solomons aerial counter-offensive.  Like the P-47 in the ETO, the Wildcat was the fighter most responsible for winning the air war in the Pacific.

- oldman

[Hap]

Probably true of both the Hellcat and Corsair.  Arguably the superior pilots of the Japanese Army and Navy air forces were mostly gone by the end of the first quarter of 1943, after the 1942 carrier battles and the 1942 Guadalcanal and early 1943 Yamamoto Solomons aerial counter-offensive.  Like the P-47 in the ETO, the Wildcat was the fighter most responsible for winning the air war in the Pacific.

- oldman

[Saxman]

Probably true of both the Hellcat and Corsair.  Arguably the superior pilots of the Japanese Army and Navy air forces were mostly gone by the end of the first quarter of 1943, after the 1942 carrier battles and the 1942 Guadalcanal and early 1943 Yamamoto Solomons aerial counter-offensive.  Like the P-47 in the ETO, the Wildcat was the fighter most responsible for winning the air war in the Pacific.

- oldman

What I'm saying though, is that the Hellcat's performance against the Zero, Ki-84 and J2M don't add up to a 19:1 kill/loss ratio, and these stats are VERY closely matched by the Corsair's own results. The Hellcat's highest ratio listed here was 13:1 against the A6M, so something is inflating the kill/loss rate of the F6F. Even if the Hellcat had an overwhelming advantage in kill/loss against the N1K, there weren't ENOUGH N1Ks for it to radically change these results.

Since the Hellcat was more widely deployed to the US carriers--and certainly much earlier--than the F4U, it was far more likely to encounter large numbers of Japanese single-engine strike craft and kamikazes, all of which suffered horrendous losses against American interceptors by the time the F6F appeared. As I said, I'm willing to bet that a sizeable part of that 19:1 is the result of slaughtering dive and torpedo-bombers the land-based Corsairs didn't see in the same numbers. Put the Corsair on the carriers in 1943, and I have no doubts we'd see a similarly elevated ratio.

[Saxman]

Interesting statistics here:

http://www.acepilots.com/planes/air_wins.html

The F4U only scored one victory from a carrier prior to 1945 (1 victory in 1944). During this time, AFAIK the only American unit that operated Corsairs off a carrier were VF-17, and this was only a temporary duty while the Bunker Hill's own fighter complement was conducting strikes with the Rogers providing CAP before returning to their shore base.

Once Corsairs appeared on the carriers in 1945, they were primarily dedicated towards air to ground work, further limiting their opportunities to engage and destroy enemy aircraft (even then, fleet-based F4Us managed to down 570-odd enemy aircraft in 6 months, 2/3 of what the F4F and its variants scored in the entire war).

I think this makes for an even stronger argument that the Hellcat's record owes a LOT to flying off the carriers while the Corsairs were stuck on land bases that often very quickly found themselves at the rear of advance (particularly after mid-1944 land-based units were increasingly relegated to mop-up work after the fleets came through).

[Krusty]

What is inflating the kill ratio is thousands upon thousands upon THOUSANDS of d3a, b5n, and similarly easy targets that flew straight and level and let themselves be shot down.

They didn't call it the Marianas Turkey Shoot because it was a nice challenge for USN pilots. And it wasn't the only turkey shoot, either.


P.S. Yes, and I wanted to include into that d3a/b5n comment the addition of bettys, nells, or any other twin engine level bomber still operating at war's end.

[Saxman]

That's not to take away from a very impressive k/d, but there's definitely an "*" that goes next to it considering the Hellcat had opportunities the for victories the F4U didn't get.

[macerxgp]

See Rule #6