Forget about the Spitfire XVI, perk the Hellcat!?!

[TequilaChaser]

                                 The
                        Grumman F6F-3 "HellCat"
                          

World War II History:
  The F6F-3, Hellcat, was a direct response to the needs the Royal Navy and
U.S. Navy needed to put forth a maximum effort to win air superiorty over
the Imperial Japanese Navy and Luftwaffe of Germany. After data recorded from
the aerial combat between Grumman's F4F Wildcat(aka Britian's Marlet-FM1 /
FM2) and the Luftwaffe's Fw's and 109's, they came to the conclusion they
were outmatched in both speed and climbing ability, so on June 30th, 1941 the
U.S.Navy signed a contract with Grumman to build the F6F-3, later to be known
as the HellCat. After aquiring a japanese zero, and restoring it to flying
capability, the Grumman"IronWorks"division had a starting point to building
the F6F. They now knew what was needed to defeat the enemy's superior fighter
.

back in 95 or 96 I found this information straight from the archives of  Grumman's Website Portal.....

NOTE that I wrote it for AW, and referenced it as the F6f-3, where as there was the prototypes ( ie....F6fX1, 2 etc..)edit , was the XF6f-1  and XF6f-3

so yes, it was started and built before the US ever actually fought the Zero.....

of course, the internet and research information is by far wide and more available than it was back then.. and I have not researched stuff like this for a long while........how ever accurate or inaccurate it maybe....

[smoe]

Kill to D ratios don't mean that much. A kill can be counted if a fighter pilot shoots off any large piece of an enemy plane, evan a flap.

[smoe]

Widewing has a good point. The F6F was fighting a lot of inexperienced pilots during the end of the war. The Wildcats took out their share of the good pilots in the early war years.

[DaveJ]

I love you Kazaa.

[Widewing]

Widewing has a good point. The F6F was fighting a lot of inexperienced pilots during the end of the war. The Wildcats took out their share of the good pilots in the early war years.

My point referred to the F4U after January of 1945. Yet, you are correct that many experienced Japanese Naval Aviators aboard carriers were already dead when the F6F-3 entered combat in August of 1943. Many, however, were lost with their carriers and not in air to air combat.

When the Hellcat appeared, there was still a reasonable core of skilled fighter pilots in the IJN. The Hellcat killed off many of those. By the time the F4U finally went aboard CVs, the typical IJN fighter pilot had little time in fighters. Only a handful of the original pilots from late 1941 were still alive and in combat. The Navy recognized that late-war opposition was sub-par and stated as much in their post war analysis, making particular note that the F4U was shooting down many "obsolescent types" after January of 1945; mentioning the Ki-27 Nate as an example. I'm sure the Hellcats were feasting on these as well.


My regards,

Widewing

[Kazaa]

I love you Kazaa.

I love me too.

[Rich46yo]

The IJN air arm, the IJN itself, pretty much died in the battles of the Philippine sea. CVs, airplanes, pilots, all of them unable to ever be replaced. It was a far more serious loss then Midway. The Great Marianas Turkey shoot was, in effect, the death knell of a once great navy.

And it wasn't just superior airplanes like the Hellcat. Or even a far superior training pipeline for pilots. By that time the USN outclassed the IJN in about every way imaginable. Most of all in radar, fire control, battle management, communications. Even our submarine doctrine was far superior. It was USN boats shadowing IJN battles groups, on their own, operating on their own, that gave us constant Intel on the deployment of IJN assets. Attacking them often.

The IJN simply made enemies with a better Navy. Our congress, with a stroke of the pen, ordered 32 Essex class super carriers to be built, Of which we built 26 "only ending cause we won the war", along with their highly trained air squadrons. This isn't even counting our light CVs or shore based USN and USAAF land based fighters. How in hell were the Japanese ever going to beat that? They ended up sending these poor schmucks up, off of converted cruiser hulls, with 50 hours air time and in fighters far outclassed. Against an enemy who knew they were coming.

[Anaxogoras]

In Aces High the F4F is easily a superior fighter to the A6M2.  It always tickles me when I read that the A6M2 was regarded as the superior fighter.

[Oldman731]

In Aces High the F4F is easily a superior fighter to the A6M2. 

News to me.

- oldman

[Anaxogoras]

I'm not talking about a hermetically sealed duel, Oldman.  Anyone who flew the recent Coral Sea scenario knows that my assesment is accurate.

[Saxman]

I'm not talking about a hermetically sealed duel, Oldman.  Anyone who flew the recent Coral Sea scenario knows that my assesment is accurate.

IF the F4F has at least 2 of the following:

1) An altitude advantage.
2) Is anything approaching a decent shot
3) Has a wingman with good communication
4) Can stay out of a protracted turning engagement

in a scenario-type situation I would agree that the F4F's assets make her superior. Then again, even the lowly P-40B will handle the Zero under the above circumstances.

[Karnak]

Saxman,

He is right, even ignoring your rules.  The only time I feel like I have the upper hand in an A6M2 over an F4F is when I get one alone, at low altitude so it can't dive away.  It takes so long to kill an F4F that any uncoordinated cooperation between multiple F4Fs means a slaughter for the A6M2s.  In the A6M2 you have to park yourself on the bellybutton of an F4F for an extended time, even if you are being accurate with the 20mm cannons, and for that whole time you cannon use your maneuverability advantage and are easily shot down.

F4Fs in AH don't have bother with any Thatch weave tactics, they can simply use one as bait to take the pounding while their friends blast the A6Ms.  The durability difference feels greatly exaggerated.

[Rich46yo]

News to me.

- oldman

In real life a 55 mph speed advantage is huge. So is, at 20,000', a far superior roll rate and dive characteristics. So is pilot armor and sealed tanks.

The biggest problem with the games Hellcat is she is often flown with, and dive bombing with, heavy ords packages into clouds of Spit-16s, LA-7s, Hurris, K-4s, P-51s, 190s.....ect Even for CV protection, in the game which is often down low, the zeke shines more cause its such a great turner and zoom climber.

The Hellcat climbs with the zeke "with wep", out accelerates it, is significantly faster both on the deck and up high, carrys a large load of ordinance, and is far more survivable for the pilot.

In my mind the Japs made only one truly "great" fighter in the war, the KI-84 "Frank". Even that was land based and gelded by lousy fuel quality. And it wasn't available in significant quantities until '44 when most of the great Jap pilots were dead and the final high performance versions of Yank/Allied fighters were taking to the air in vast numbers. The IJN never made a CV based fighter that could truly be called "great" in the final 3 years of the war.

Still the zeke was the right plane at the right time for the IJN. Unfortunately for them it was also the wrong plane at the wrong time for them.

[Ack-Ack]

The IJN air arm, the IJN itself, pretty much died in the battles of the Philippine sea. CVs, airplanes, pilots, all of them unable to ever be replaced. It was a far more serious loss then Midway. The Great Marianas Turkey shoot was, in effect, the death knell of a once great navy.

The Battle of Coral Sea, Battle of Miday and the Battle of Guadacanal were far more responsible for the losses of the veteran and experienced IJN air crews than the Battle of the Philippine Sea.  By the time the Battle of the Philippine Sea took place in 1944, the IJN already had lost a majority of their experienced air crews and most of the IJN air crews were far less experienced and it showed during the battle.  The Battle of the Philippine Sea was just the final nail in the coffin for the IJN.


ack-ack

[Widewing]

In real life a 55 mph speed advantage is huge. So is, at 20,000', a far superior roll rate and dive characteristics. So is pilot armor and sealed tanks.

The comparison was the F4F-4 vs the A6M2, not the F6F-5....



My regards,

Widewing