Crazy A&P invoice - need thoughts

[allaire]

I know nothing about aircraft avation but I do know that a lot of repair shops around the states follow a simple business practice.  Get as much money as you can for the least amount of work.  The dealers are even better at this than private shops.

[CAP1]

I know nothing about aircraft avation but I do know that a lot of repair shops around the states follow a simple business practice.  Get as much money as you can for the least amount of work.  The dealers are even better at this than private shops.

dealers for the most part, charge "book". this means, that for instance, your lexus needs a new steering rack. the book calls for 4.5 hours to do this job. that's what you'll pay in labor, regardless if the tech does the job in 2 hours, the quoted time of 4.5, or even if he takes 6 hours.....they charge you that 4.5.
 then you pay for the rack...which, regardless of where they buy it from.....toyota, napa, auto zone, etc, they will mark it up. this markup varies a LOT. then you pay for fluid, and probably an alignment.
 then you pay a shop fee, and a hazmat fee.

 most private shops(at least in my area) are anywhere from $10 to $50 an hour cheaper on their labor rate than the dealer is.
 
 most private shops will use "book" as an estimate only. that's what i do. on that same steering rack, i'd quote you that 4.5 hours. if it takes me longer, then i lose. if i do it in 2 hours, i adjust the bill accordingly. most shops in my area do the same thing.
 we also mark up the parts. there is no way that any of us can or will buy a part for $100, and then sell it to the customer at $100. we'd be out of business in short order.
 most of us sell the parts to the customer for "list" or somewhere near list.

 this is just like anything you buy.

 john makes shirts. he sells them to bob for $1. bob sells them to jim's shirt supply for $2. jims shirt supply sells them to several shirt retailers for $3 each. these retailers sell them to you and me for $6.

 take that very same model, and apply it to automotive parts.

 when i work on bmw's, mercedes, etc, i often come in significantly lower than the dealer...or so i'm told. i use the same quality parts, my work is either equal to or better than the dealer techs work, and the customer leaves happy.

 there are a lot of repair shops out there that are rip-offs. they;re becoming rarer though.

[Die Hard]

That's why if you know what the problem is... buy the parts yourself. Most shops will try to hide some of the actual price by marking up parts and adding various "fees".

[CAP1]

That's why if you know what the problem is... buy the parts yourself. Most shops will try to hide some of the actual price by marking up parts and adding various "fees".

shop fees, i don't do. i do, however, charge hazmat fees. it costs me money to get rid of tires, old antifreeze, oil, tranny fluid, etc.......


 the thing to be careful with, with bringing your own parts, is:  some shops will charge you a higher labor rate. only the shops labor is guaranteed. if the part you brought goes bad next week, you will pay again. some shops won't even install any parts that they don't supply.


 again, i will install customer supplied parts. i charge them the same labor, as anyone else pays. i do also, though, charge when your self supplied part goes bad,,,,,,,


 i try to be as fair as i can to people. i'll never get rich that way, but i am havin fun runnin my own place though. 

[Dago]

My feelings on this whole thing:  Pay your bill.  Stop complaining.  If you think they overcharged you, take your business elsewhere in the future.  I doubt they will miss another aircraft owner second guessing them and complaining about the bill, it's driven enough shops out of business.

[mechanic]

Dago, what if the cost is about $300 more than it should be?  I am totaly ignorant to the subject matter at hand but i am sure that $500 of labour charge is too large. I have done jobs in the fencing business where i worked solid for three days and then had the customer complain about roughly $200 of labour costs added on top (half of which was for diesel to get there and back). I refused to move and he paid in the end, so i see where you are coming from, but surely there is a line that you have to draw. If the bill was $1000 too high would you just pay it and change companies next time? So it comes down to a matter of principle and how high each customers threshhold for being ripped off is.

[CAP1]

personally, if somene comes to me, and tells me they think my price is too high before i do the job, i'll shop around, and see what i can do.

 if they agree to my price, and then complain after the work is done....well, that is just downright unreasonable. then to top it off, if they try to tell me that it should cost "X" amount? they screwed the pooch at that point, because i'll not budge at that point.

 i often find it's someone thinking they can play hardball with me, as they;ve all come back eventually.


the funny thing is, that someone will complain about a bill being a little high on somethign that their lives depend on, but they won't hesitate to go out and spend $60 on jeans, or $100 on silly sneakers(because their friends have em and they're "in"), or $500 on a compound bow.

 if ya don't like their business practice, then go somewhere else. that's what i do.

[Dago]

Something to think about:

Shop rate was charged at $90 per hour to work on an aircraft.  Many car shops will hit you up for $100.

An aircraft mechanic has had to go to great expense in money and time to earn his federal airframe and powerplant mechanics license.

He has had to invest a small fortune in tools and special equipment, in aircraft maintenance manuals and federal regs, AD's etc, and all must be kept current.

An aircraft mechanic must work on aircraft knowing that if he makes a mistake, people may die, he may be arrested and imprisoned for negligence, he may be sued for all he has and all he ever will earn.

He works in an industry where job stability is unknown and shops come and go.

Then, with all that in mind, he will constantly experience aircraft owners who have spent better than a quarter for a million dollars on their toy coming in and nit-picking him over a bill that sometimes barely covers the cost of the work with a very small margin of profit.

Is it really any wonder that the average A&P leaves the industry after 17 years, or that most A&P schools cannot keep their doors open any longer because nobody wants to enter this field of work?

[CAP1]

Something to think about:

Shop rate was charged at $90 per hour to work on an aircraft.  Many car shops will hit you up for $100.

An aircraft mechanic has had to go to great expense in money and time to earn his federal airframe and powerplant mechanics license.

He has had to invest a small fortune in tools and special equipment, in aircraft maintenance manuals and federal regs, AD's etc, and all must be kept current.

An aircraft mechanic must work on aircraft knowing that if he makes a mistake, people may die, he may be arrested and imprisoned for negligence, he may be sued for all he has and all he ever will earn.

He works in an industry where job stability is unknown and shops come and go.

Then, with all that in mind, he will constantly experience aircraft owners who have spent better than a quarter for a million dollars on their toy coming in and nit-picking him over a bill that sometimes barely covers the cost of the work with a very small margin of profit.

Is it really any wonder that the average A&P leaves the industry after 17 years, or that most A&P schools cannot keep their doors open any longer because nobody wants to enter this field of work?

PRETTY much the same at an auto repair shop.

south jersey, labor rates are anywhere from 85 to 125 or so. the 125 is a mazda dealer.

[Wolfala]

My feelings on this whole thing:  Pay your bill.  Stop complaining.  If you think they overcharged you, take your business elsewhere in the future.  I doubt they will miss another aircraft owner second guessing them and complaining about the bill, it's driven enough shops out of business.

Dago,

There are several points you are failing to get - so let me help you out.

1.  The parent company did not agree with the upcharges - since:
A:  It makes them look bad when the plane gets a bad reputation for being ridiculously expensive to impart simple repairs. That has a direct impact on their ability to sell future airframes to owners who want to upgrade.
B:  It makes their service center network look like nothing more then a shell game if there is no consistency in billing practices. 12 other shops were called - all their prices were within 5% of each other. I know how to take the engine apart and the time it takes, I did it last year when I was in A&P school in Palo Alto CA. The reason I subcontracted the work out to the shop was b/c I didn't have time to tear it down b/c of needing to run a construction company. If you want to see crooks - come to my neighborhood for a day. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,241456.0.html
C:  As mentioned before, repair shops/service centers/schools (of which this is both) survive DIRECTLY on their reputation within their respective communities. As an instructor and senior member within the national owners group - I have a very direct influence on sending new or existing owners to that facility for anything - whether it is training, renting or repairs.

2.  You are exactly correct on having an estimate done - and there was one which I had in hand and shoved down their throat. Hence the $1015 number vs the $1515 number.
3.  The potential losses resulting from losing their ability to markup parts from the factory from MSRP would be far more devastating then simply trying to screw me. Look, as I said before - if I tried to screw every one of my customers, would my company have lasted 104 years? I doubt it.

Anyway - back to the end result of this: The "manager", a 25 year old know nothing was "acting on his own" and the owner plead ignorance and the adjustment was made. There was also an implicit understanding between all parties that if there was one more report of irregular billing - they lose their certs.

2.  

[Dago]

Dago,

There are several points you are failing to get - so let me help you out.

1.  The parent company did not agree with the upcharges - since:
A:  It makes them look bad when the plane gets a bad reputation for being ridiculously expensive to impart simple repairs. That has a direct impact on their ability to sell future airframes to owners who want to upgrade.
B:  It makes their service center network look like nothing more then a shell game if there is no consistency in billing practices. 12 other shops were called - all their prices were within 5% of each other. I know how to take the engine apart and the time it takes, I did it last year when I was in A&P school in Palo Alto CA. The reason I subcontracted the work out to the shop was b/c I didn't have time to tear it down b/c of needing to run a construction company. If you want to see crooks - come to my neighborhood for a day. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,241456.0.html
C:  As mentioned before, repair shops/service centers/schools (of which this is both) survive DIRECTLY on their reputation within their respective communities. As an instructor and senior member within the national owners group - I have a very direct influence on sending new or existing owners to that facility for anything - whether it is training, renting or repairs.

2.  You are exactly correct on having an estimate done - and there was one which I had in hand and shoved down their throat. Hence the $1015 number vs the $1515 number.
3.  The potential losses resulting from losing their ability to markup parts from the factory from MSRP would be far more devastating then simply trying to screw me. Look, as I said before - if I tried to screw every one of my customers, would my company have lasted 104 years? I doubt it.

Anyway - back to the end result of this: The "manager", a 25 year old know nothing was "acting on his own" and the owner plead ignorance and the adjustment was made. There was also an implicit understanding between all parties that if there was one more report of irregular billing - they lose their certs.

2.  

Let see, you said you wanted an "estimate" not a bid, then want to make sure they only charge the estimate, regardless of what else they might find or have to do that may be been unforeseen.  No job ever works out as perfectly as hoped, issues always pop up.

You basically tell me that you will blackmail them with threats of bad mouthing in the aviation community if they charge you above estimate.  Nice guy you are.

You get the parent company to play the "customer is always right" game so you won't badmouth the parent company, get them to cutoff the A&Ps at the knees.  Yeah, my kind of customer.

You think they will lose what, the company accreditation or do you think they will lose their A&Ps if they present an "irregular" bill?     They won't lose their A&Ps over billing, that is for sure, as long as their physcial work on the airplane is in compliance with all applicable FAR's.  The FAA knows all about cheap owners, they violate them all the time.

If I owned the shop, hearing what you have said, not only would I not fear losing you as a customer, I would strongly suggest in the future you take your business elsewhere.  Your billing issue sure doesn't sound like an outrageous bill, just maybe slightly higher than you expected.  

Cheap owners and the games they try to play with shops keep many out of general aviation, and also drive many very good and conscientious people out.

I know a guy who, with his brother started up and developed a large chain of supermarkets, then sold them to one of the largest supermarket parent companies in the country.  He is now a multi-millionaire.  Came up to me and another guy at the local airport, knowing we both have A&P's, told us he bought two cheap tires for his Beech from Trade-A-Crate, and was kind of hoping to find someone to install them for him.  I pointed to the local shop, said "they can do it for you".  He frowned, hoped we would volunteer to do it for free.  Typical cheap bellybutton owner, wants to do it for  a penny, when he can easily afford to pay a professional to do it.  Every A&P runs into this all the time.  Sorry, but I have no patience for owners whining about every freaking nickel.   Next time you are shooting an approach into low minimums at night over inhospitable terrain, think about that guy and how you can trust him with your life, yet not trust him with a bill.

[CAP1]

Let see, you said you wanted an "estimate" not a bid, then want to make sure they only charge the estimate, regardless of what else they might find or have to do that may be been unforeseen.

You basically tell me that you will blackmail them with threats of bad mouthing in the aviation community if they charge you above estimate.

You get the parent company to play the "customer is always right" game so you won't badmouth the parent company, get them to cutoff the A&Ps at the knees.

You think they will lose what, the company accreditation or do you think they will lose their A&Ps if they present an "irregular" bill?     They won't lose their A&Ps over billing, that is for sure, as long as their physcial work on the airplane is in compliance with all applicable FAR's.

If I owned the shop, hearing what you have said, not only would I not fear losing you as a customer, I would strongly suggest in the future you take your business elsewhere.  Your billing issue sure doesn't sound like an outrageous bill, just maybe slightly higher than you expected. 

Cheap owners and the games they try to play with shops keep many out of general aviation, and also drive many very good and conscientious people out.

kinda glad to see someone else noticed this.

[eagl]

Sheesh Dago, if you have extra money laying around to give people overcharging for parts and service or who argue and try to hide stuff when asked for detailed accounting in the bill, why not just send ME some of that money.  I promise I'll work hard, I promise

 

[Dago]

Sheesh Dago, if you have extra money laying around to give people overcharging for parts and service or who argue and try to hide stuff when asked for detailed accounting in the bill, why not just send ME some of that money.  I promise I'll work hard, I promise

 

Eagl, I have a ton of respect for you and the fact that you are serving our country, but get on the receiving end of cheap tulips who want to accuse you of overcharging every time you do a job, who want to challenge every dime on a bill, and you will understand the frustration.  Doing good work on something as critical as an aircraft engine, on a single engine airplane isn't enough.  You're going to end up defending your billing.  If there is all this overcharging going on, how come there aren't any rich A&Ps, but there are a lot of them leaving aviation?

There are two sides to every story, stop seeing just the pilots side.

[CAP1]

Eagl, I have a ton of respect for you and the fact that you are serving our country, but get on the receiving end of cheap tulips who want to accuse you of overcharging every time you do a job, who want to challenge every dime on a bill, and you will understand the frustration.  Doing good work on something as critical as an aircraft engine, on a single engine airplane isn't enough.  You're going to end up defending your billing.  If there is all this overcharging going on, how come there aren't any rich A&Ps, but there are a lot of them leaving aviation?

There are two sides to every story, stop seeing just the pilots side.

i had a customer try to nickel and dime me on a bill a few years ago. so i started totaling the time i spent on the phone tracking down his parts. i pulled out the phone bill, and started totaling all the calls i made for his car. he asked me what i was doing. i told him, that it was ok, i was just going to do like lawyers do, and charge for the extras that we never charge for.

 he told me to stop, then laughed his bellybutton off, and handed me his credit card.

 turns out he just went through a divorce, and understood when i put it that way. he turned into one of my best customers.