Crazy A&P invoice - need thoughts

[mechanic]

There is a line that was crossed in the ammount of extra charges that Wolf was not happy with, that's the customer's side of it. There was a limit to how little the vendor wanted to make on profit, thats the other side. All that happened is those two numbers conflicted.

 To say that makes wolf a 'cheapass' is hardly fair. Not everyone has sold a company and owns millions of dollars. Oh, and beside that point, alot of people who do own millions of dollars only get there by counting every penny. Not my style of living but I really cannot agree that a customer should pay whatever the bill is everytime without question. 

[Dago]

There is a line that was crossed in the ammount of extra charges that Wolf was not happy with, that's the customer's side of it. There was a limit to how little the vendor wanted to make on profit, thats the other side. All that happened is those two numbers conflicted.

 To say that makes wolf a 'cheapass' is hardly fair. Not everyone has sold a company and owns millions of dollars. Oh, and beside that point, alot of people who do own millions of dollars only get there by counting every penny. Not my style of living but I really cannot agree that a customer should pay whatever the bill is everytime without question. 

It's not my intention to call him cheap, but after a time, you just start lumping them all together.  I knew a guy who owned a 421, it was his toy, and he didn't question bills, wanted everything done right, and would buy the lines guys lunch whenever he came to the airport.  I was working my way through college when I met him, and I can tell you, a guy like that is few and far between in aviation.  He could afford an airplane, and could and would pay the maintenance bills.  So many owners seem to be able to afford an airplane, but act like you are taking bread from his kids mouths when you want to be paid for services requested.  God forbid you exceed the estimate because a couple screws on a panel were stripped, and you had to drill them out, then had to spend some time finding a part he needed, let his plane sit in your shop, taking up some of the limited space while you waited two days for the part to arrive.  Never mind the time spent troubleshooting, or doing a runup to check function and leaks.  You JUST know changing a cylinder is only a two hour job.  Of course you didn't struggle to get off a stuck exhaust nut from the hardest to reach pipe at an odd angle upside down, he did.  Don't dare let that change the estimated price, even though you didn't dare account for things like that in your estimate or you would have been higher than Joes Aircraft Repair and Lawn Service across the field.

Anyone who thinks they should weigh in on this subject, I suggest you go out to the local field, go the the nearest aircraft maintenance shop, ask for the service manager, and ask them if they ever have customers who want to argue the bill and get work done for nothing.  But be prepared to spend a lot of time and you better buy the guy a soft drink or coffee, he might need it to get his blood pressure back to normal when he is done answering the question.  Also, ask if any have tried to blackmail him by threatening to bad mouth his shop.

I don't agree with over billing to be sure.  And as a customer, you have a right to ask and know about the charges.  Just don't pretend to be an expert and know exactly what everything should cost.  Understand there are always going to be variances and unexpected issues that will effect that bill.

[CAP1]

There is a line that was crossed in the ammount of extra charges that Wolf was not happy with, that's the customer's side of it. There was a limit to how little the vendor wanted to make on profit, thats the other side. All that happened is those two numbers conflicted.

 To say that makes wolf a 'cheapass' is hardly fair. Not everyone has sold a company and owns millions of dollars. Oh, and beside that point, alot of people who do own millions of dollars only get there by counting every penny. Not my style of living but I really cannot agree that a customer should pay whatever the bill is everytime without question. 

i'm not calling anyone anything.

i know how i run my business. i check it out. i give you an estimate. you agree or not. if you agree, and approve the work, then i do the exact work on the estimate. if there's other stuff that comes up, i stop, and call ya.

 what often happens, though, is that after the customer has agreed, he comes in, and tries to play games with me, hoping i'll back down, and lower the price.

 i've been dealing with people trying that for about 10 years now. i see it comin before they get to do it to me.

 i'll go back and re-read the original post, as i may have missed something. i also run an auto shop, not an aviation shop.

 they are somewhat similar though, except it's much more expensive to be legally allowed to do major maintenance on aircraft. when i rebuild an engine, i'm the only one that has to look it over or approve it. i know that it's somewhat different in aviation.

 in all things such as this, it's hard to say right or wrong. if he was given an estimate, and the final bill was within 10% or so of that estimate, then there really shouldn't be a problem....assuming the go-ahead was given for the work.

 now, if he was told $1,000, gave the ok on the work, and the final bill was that 1500, then there is a serious problem.

just my opinions, and observations, from running an auto shop.....

[Golfer]

If I'm expecting a job to cost X amount of money and upon receipt of the bill I see I'm charged X plus 30% I'm going to be curious, disappointed and quite possibly angry at the situation.  If there is going to be a significant cost overrun I'm going to expect to be kept in the loop so I can continue to budget accordingly as well as approve the additional expense.

We generally give our mechanic fair leeway to do as he sees fit when it comes to billing and he does an exceptional job shopping around.  That said when viewed from the perspective of airplane owner who likes to be involved with their investment the status of whatever is going on is updated daily and potential cost/time overruns are brought to light as quickly as possible for the time and money budgeting reasons I mentioned.

To be handed a bill that has 30% tacked onto the estimate wouldn't be well received by me either.  Wolfs was invoice plus 50% was it not?  That's unacceptable.

Now if anyone can make a Lear 45 windshield that won't delaminate after 13 months please do so because Bombardier's vendors can't.  They're $50,000 each and our airplane has had 12 different windshields installed on it since it was new.  How's that for a cost overrun?

[mechanic]

Dago, Cap, I'm too ignorant on the subject to argue it accurately, taken your points onboard. Looking at the big picture you are right. In this individual case my opinon sides with wolfala's descision that the price was too much higher than normal to let go and that's all i agree with.


Golfer, 50k a windshield, are you in the right business? 

[CAP1]

Dago, Cap, I'm too ignorant on the subject to argue it accurately, taken your points onboard. Looking at the big picture you are right. In this individual case my opinon sides with wolfala's descision that the price was too much higher than normal to let go and that's all i agree with.


Golfer, 50k a windshield, are you in the right business? 

understood.........i understand yours and his opinions too.

it's pretty cool that this thread has stayed civil too. no name calling or anything like they often degrade into. 


50k for a windscreen?  all i can say to that is     

[Golfer]

$50,000 each.  We have two and the airplane is wearing either 11 & 12 or 12 & 13.  I've lost count.  I think we're on revision 7 of the windshield which is a single piece of molded plastic with a constant curve.  The two we put on in the 18 months or so are thicker than any of the previous ones and actually required modification to the airframe to make them fit.  So far, so good.  

$11,000-$13,000 batteries, anyone? 

[CAP1]

$50,000 each.  We have two and the airplane is wearing either 11 & 12 or 12 & 13.  I've lost count.  I think we're on revision 7 of the windshield which is a single piece of molded plastic with a constant curve.  The two we put on in the 18 months or so are thicker than any of the previous ones and actually required modification to the airframe to make them fit.  So far, so good.  

$11,000-$13,000 batteries, anyone? 

what is it that causes them to do this? have you guys been able to determine? like is it just the force put on it from flight, or flexing of the airframe?


i own a dodge caravan, dodge dakota, geo prism, ford taurus, ford fairmont, and a camaro(race car) and they don't total that cost for batteries............

yikes!!

[mechanic]

the last car i owned was not worth 1/10 of a lear battery 

[Golfer]

They've just been delaminating.  No airframe flex AFAIK but it seems they've just been too thin to be reliable the way they are designed.  Like I said they are big single pane windshields with constant curves.  What stinks is we can't use the old ones for anything.  If they were flat or had any flat portions we could at least make desks or tables out of the damn things.

So far so good on what I think is revision 7.  They're thicker and a slightly different color tint than the old ones that required the frame to be cut to allow the latest version to fit.  Previously they would start to go bad just outside of warranty which was only 1 year.  13-14 months after installation they'd start to go...doh! 

[CAP1]

They've just been delaminating.  No airframe flex AFAIK but it seems they've just been too thin to be reliable the way they are designed.  Like I said they are big single pane windshields with constant curves.  What stinks is we can't use the old ones for anything.  If they were flat or had any flat portions we could at least make desks or tables out of the damn things.

So far so good on what I think is revision 7.  They're thicker and a slightly different color tint than the old ones that required the frame to be cut to allow the latest version to fit.  Previously they would start to go bad just outside of warranty which was only 1 year.  13-14 months after installation they'd start to go...doh! 

depending on the angles, what about adding legs, and plunk a cushion on it, and make a chair? 

and i think having to keep replacing them as you've mentioned, i'd be so far beyond pissed..........

[eagl]

There are two sides to every story, stop seeing just the pilots side.

Dago,

Respectfully, it's not just a matter of perspective.  

The bill itself is in question, not just where the service or parts prices were higher than expected.  When there is a clearly unexpected or outrageous markup, extra work, or anything else that makes a repair bill significantly over a quote or what the customer was led to expect, then at the very least the service provider owes the customer a detailed bill.  But the shop refused.

And that's the whole point - the bill was higher than expected and the shop belligerently refused to detail the expenses.  That's utter BS, and you know it.  It's not a matter of a customer being cheap, it's a matter of a shop trying to hide overcharging for a fairly standard service.

[eagl]

If I'm expecting a job to cost X amount of money and upon receipt of the bill I see I'm charged X plus 30% I'm going to be curious, disappointed and quite possibly angry at the situation.  If there is going to be a significant cost overrun I'm going to expect to be kept in the loop so I can continue to budget accordingly as well as approve the additional expense.

Exactly.

[eagl]

Now if anyone can make a Lear 45 windshield that won't delaminate after 13 months please do so because Bombardier's vendors can't.  They're $50,000 each and our airplane has had 12 different windshields installed on it since it was new.  How's that for a cost overrun?

Have you considered operator error?  Are the pilots leaving on windshield heat during ground ops?  Not joking, some guys just don't read the manual carefully enough or they mis-remember something, or they transfer habits from one plane to another, and it turns out to be horribly dangerous or damaging to the plane.

We're fighting these issues right now with our transition from the T-37 to the T-6...  The T-6 can be badly damaged in a dozen ways if we operate it like we did the tweet.  We're very careful about how we do things, but even minor changes in the software we use to track our flying hours has led to pilots incorrectly logging their flying hours and training events.  So imagine the issues you can have when switching from one plane to another and then diving right into student training.  As a supervisor it's my job to keep an eye out for instructors who might have learned something incorrectly during the instructor training or aircraft transition course, but I'm fairly new in the T-6 myself so I have to be doubly careful not to do anything that will break the plane.

Like leaving windshield heat on during ground ops, and then swear up and down that I have no idea why the windshields delaminate before expected service life expires

[Golfer]

It's a fleet wide issue and we're by no means the only operator with the same track record.  The windshields themselves are electrically heated and are supposed to be on all the time the engines are running IAW the manufacturers checklist.  In fact the only AC power sources the airplane has are two alternators, one on each engine, specifically for the on-side windshield power.  They cannot transfer the load to the off side alternator and are dedicated to the on-side window.  Brilliant engineering there.    There's no way to mess it up and they have built in protection if they get too hot which will shut them off while alerting the pilot with a CAS message.

It's not like a Citation where you have a defog fan as well as bleed air which can melt the acrylic windshield if left on too long or at too high a power setting.  It's really pretty well idiot proof and like I mentioned I can go look at 10 45's and I'll find at least two windshields with some delamination forming.  When visiting one operator which happened to have 3 in their hangar and another transient fractional 45 there were 3 windsheilds on those 4 airplanes which had some delam going on.  Sweeeeeeeeet...