Pony - Jug question -- RWY/Frenchy heads up

[AKcurly]

Several weeks ago, RWY noted the ponies inability to weather ack around aircraft fields.

I've been experimenting with the D11 and I have noted the following:  If you approach a field at about 10k, throttle back, nose over near the edge of a small field, you can
easily shoot the ack down in two passes.  It doesn't even take practice.

You don't get hit on the first pass and if you climb out to 9k or so, you won't get hit on the second pass.  In the film below, I was in a hurry and turned at 6k and lost a gun, but no damage other than that.

Ok, here's the question: The jug is physically larger than the pony, correct?  The pony is faster than the jug, correct?
So why does the pony get destroyed by the ack and the jug does not?

Here's the film.  It's tiny -- 98k.  I filmed it using beta12, so you may need the beta to view it ... dunno.
 http://rattler.cameron.edu/film12.zip

AKcurly

[Robert]

Curley

I have no idea..... I do know this ...If i get anywhere near AA in a 51 i almost always die (That means below 4k). Most of the time i hear one ping and end up in the tower. Just like today when Pepe and i were after each other.

RWY

[Ghosth]

Curly is right on as far as approach is concerned. I can get 3 acks min each pass in la7. First pass I never get hit unless I miss one. Ussually because I try to shoot too soon at the first one. Inevitably if I miss one it will kill me just as I pass over it.

2nd pass if I climb to 6k or better I'm also ussually fine. Like curly says if you reverse too soon, or from too low, you'll get hit or killed.

I'll have to take the pony up & try it myself to see what happens.

[lakc]

Well, our beloved jug falls like a rock, so maybe otto does not provide enough lead.  

[Ghosth]

Just tested pony in Training arena against ack.

3 times in a row I climbed up to 9k. Level  speed 320 indicated at nose over. Run speed up to 400 or better on dive in. Kill 2 or 3 acks then bangbangbang I'm dead in tower.


Something sure smells fishy to me.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

I usually go at 13k and dive from there. I make sure I don't go over the 400-450 IAS.

For what I noted, the faster you are, the more u have chances to get hit. In the jug, when I'm at 4-5K near the ack, at 450plus, then I will die from a single ping.
Looks like being fast limit your turn rate so much that the ack has no problem lining you up.

And no, according to my own experience, if I fly straight and level I get hit and die from the single ping. When I see others vulching thru the ack several times in a row, I'm always surprised they stay alive, but hey... why not  

[paintmaw]

I think you need cannons to hit ack from further out . my spit can clear ack on a large feild and it won't do 400 mph , usually just to be safe I kill 2 ack per pass , and never fly over any ack .

[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: paintmaw ]

[Vruth]

Here is an interesting thought...

Does HTC model aircraft stress and damage?  

For example, does the damage modeling take into account if ACK hits your aircraft wing in the middle of a High-G turn or at high speed vs low-g or slow speed?

When I fly my pony into an airfield to D-ACK, I am usually at 450-500 TAS. If I was in a Spit/Nik, I would be around 250-300 TAS.

Reason why I ask is because I was in an Arado over an enemy CV at 400-450 TAS and a single ping hit my engine, set it on fire, then I blew up after 2 minutes.  I then took up a B-26 several times over the CV at 200 TAS, took a tonne of damage, but managed to land fine each time (sans engine, elevator, rudder, or other misc damage).

It's just pure physics but is this a factor in the game? Pyro? HiTech?

Vruth, First Lieutenant, F3D1S1L, AirCom, MS
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412 Braunco Mustang Fighter Squadron
             

[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: Vruth ]

[air_reaper]

I think the ack is slow in following an airplane. If you keep an eye on the tracers you can easily dodge them. Here are a couple films I took after reading this post. I took a med. and large field. Small fields and ports are the easiest ones to get.

Not sure why the tracers from the ack does not show up in the film but you can be for certain they were shooting.

When you see me jerk my wing slightly that is because I am moving it out of the way of one of the yellow death-rays. lol

Med field
Large field

[Robert]

Show me the same thing in the MA and you are officially the man in my book. I've make the same approaches as you have in these films time and time again. If i ever get below 4k near ack i always alwaysssssss get hit.

RWY

 

Originally posted by air_reaper:
I think the ack is slow in following an airplane. If you keep an eye on the tracers you can easily dodge them. Here are a couple films I took after reading this post. I took a med. and large field. Small fields and ports are the easiest ones to get.

Not sure why the tracers from the ack does not show up in the film but you can be for certain they were shooting.

When you see me jerk my wing slightly that is because I am moving it out of the way of one of the yellow death-rays. lol

Med field
Large field

[eddiek]

I am far from an expert on deacking a field, but like Frenchy, I have noticed that faster is not better, as your forward velocity limits how much you can jink to throw off the aim of the acks.

But nothing is concrete.  I deacked an entire large field in a Jug using just my machine guns, never got over 300TAS  the whole time.  Felt pretty about that, so I headed to a small field, came whistling in about 350TAS, got one ack, another took my wing off.
I think you need to stay close to the "sweet spot" as far as your maneuverability vs speed is concerned.
Best plane to deack in, IMO?  The A6M.....it takes hits and keeps on flying, seems like a flying tank in AH.

[AKcurly]

RWY,

(film link at bottom)

I think I know the pony answer.  When I'm in a jug, I get it to stall speed around 10k above the field and nose over.  The jug is such an efficient diver, by the time I'm mid-field, I am 400+.

I went offline and did the same thing in the pony.  Nope, got nailed, but I noticed the airspeed was only 300+.  I went back in a pony, nosed over at 10k and applied enough throttle that I was doing 400+ mid-field.  No sweat - ack didn't even get close.

Acid test.  I went online, flew to a small field (4k alt), nosed over at 14k, applied a little power and had no problems.  I noticed I was doing 450 midfield, so I didn't try to hit the left corner position. It took 3 passes (instead of 2.)

I have to believe AH is based on a real-world physics model: If you are going fly straight near ack, you had better be going fast!

I believe there are two things working here:

1) If you let the pony dive from 10k (with low power), it won't achieve sufficient speed.

2) Occasionally, you are going to make a mistake. When the ack pegs a pony, it's usually bad news.  When it pegs a jug, it just shrugs it off -- most of the time.  

Here is the online film.  It's small -- 79k.  It was pretty funny.  I was deacking the field and a F4U and 109 were protesting.  
 http://rattler.cameron.edu/film1.zip

AKcurly

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: AKcurly ]

[Robert]

curly

ill check the film out .... hopefully ill learn something about it.

RWY

[Robert]

Curly

I have a question for you. What did you have your convergence set at when you made this film. OOhhh by the way good flying and shooting in the film.

RWY

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by Robert:
Curly

I have a question for you. What did you have your convergence set at when you made this film. OOhhh by the way good flying and shooting in the film.

RWY

425/400/375. ty  

AKcurly