Author Topic: SHvak cannon  (Read 2696 times)

carl

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SHvak cannon
« on: August 22, 2000, 12:41:00 AM »
Seems here in AH the SHvak cannon is a popsiclecat , the projectile drops like it's made of paper mache. With a velocity of 800-860 m/s and rate of fire of 800 rpm ,round of 42kg's, the la5/YAK9 should be quite abit deadlier than the 109s. Is there just erroneos programming , or does my aim just suck that bad. But last night being 100-120 yard behind a 109 pulling probably 4g's aiming at his cockpit the rounds were falling under his tail ! then even at 300yards slow deflection shot the rounds were pitifully falling under his nose , i had to adjust accordingly but not many hits with them split second shots like that.

[This message has been edited by carl (edited 08-22-2000).]

Offline RAM

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2000, 07:38:00 AM »
Carl, all cannons have less efect after v1.03, ShVAK is more powerful than Type99 and Mauser, but it lags a lot behind Hispanos.


I fear ShVAKs. And La5 and Yak9 pack quite more punch than 109 with 20mm, believe me.
[edit] because the La5 has 2 20mm cannons and the Yak9 has 2 very powerful 12.7mm machineguns, not by the cannon itself (making sure I'm not misunderstood  )[/edit]


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-22-2000).]

Offline Vermillion

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2000, 08:45:00 AM »
Actually the ShVak 20mm and the MG151 20mm had very similar statistics, with only a slight performance advantage to the ShVak. The Hispano is shown for comparison.

MG 151/20  20 x 82 ( 92 g) 740 rpm  800 m/s  42 kg  
ShVAK  20 x 99R ( 96 g) 800 rpm  860 m/s  42 kg
Hispano Mk.II  20 x 110 (130 g) 600 rpm  880 m/s  50 kg  

Btw 42kg is the weight of the gun itself. Its the 92 grams and 96 grams that matter, the projectile weight.

I flew the Yak last Tour, and the G10 this tour, and I honestly have to say that I can't tell much difference between the two cannons in the least.

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YankeeStation

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2000, 11:17:00 AM »
I personally think that both the Russian and german cannons are weak, in damage as well as in ballistics. The Hispanos are in my experience more effective (relative to its counterparts) than the numbers above show.

Couldn't find much criticism on the guns to this extent from vets on the net, so maybe a little undermodeled?

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Oh Jeez, if I only had a rearview mirror!

Bies

   

And bring the A26 and Hurricane (Mk IIC/D) to AH!!!


[This message has been edited by YankeeStation (edited 08-22-2000).]

Offline RAM

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2000, 12:20:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by YankeeStation:
I personally think that both the Russian and german cannons are weak, in damage as well as in ballistics. The Hispanos are in my experience more effective (relative to its counterparts) than the numbers above show.

Couldn't find much criticism on the guns to this extent from vets on the net, so maybe a little undermodeled?


I have been repeating this since V1.0.

All I got is nothing but some hispanodweebs jumping on me each time I say that mausers dont feel good    


Offline leonid

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2000, 05:22:00 PM »
carl,

The air intake of the La-5FN has a lot to do with the impression that ShVAK rounds are weak.  There really is no greater drop than with mausers.

YankeeStation,
Hispano rounds are almost half again as large as the ShVAKs, or Mausers.  They all may be 20mm in rim diameter, but Hispano 20mm rounds are quite long with a large casing.  Think of it this way; there's a .22 long bullet, and then there's a .223.  Both have almost the same rim diameter, but the M-16 bullet packs a much deadlier punch than a mere .22 long.

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 08-22-2000).]
ingame: Raz

funked

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2000, 06:18:00 PM »
Well 5.56mm NATO vs. 22LR is probably a bigger gap than Hispano vs. MG 151/20.  Maybe .30 Carbine vs. 7.62 NATO?

YankeeStation

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2000, 07:11:00 PM »
Now I get it Leonid, thnx.
Do you know wether that influences the 'bad' ballistics as well? Or has that another entirely different cause?

Maybe because the kinetic energy of a hispano slug is over 30% bigger than the others?? Or is there more behind it?
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Oh Jeez, if I only had a rearview mirror!

Bies

   

And bring the A26 and Hurricane (Mk IIC/D) to AH!!!


[This message has been edited by YankeeStation (edited 08-22-2000).]

Offline StSanta

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2000, 11:14:00 PM »
Bah.

Real men kill their enemies by maneuver kills.



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Offline Pyro

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2000, 11:37:00 PM »
If you guys come to the con, I'll let you bribe me with beers to come back to my office and look at and handle examples of these different munitions and look at various detailed references to them.



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Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2000, 06:44:00 AM »
Ah so thats the pickup line Pyro uses on chicks and sheep  

Come back to my office.....  

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funked

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2000, 08:55:00 AM »
Yankee, the Hispano KE is actually more than 1.7 times greater than MG 151/20 KE.

Offline leonid

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2000, 12:42:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by funked:
Well 5.56mm NATO vs. 22LR is probably a bigger gap than Hispano vs. MG 151/20.  Maybe .30 Carbine vs. 7.62 NATO?

Hehe, funked.  Better analogy.  I just wanted to impress that point  

ingame: Raz

carl

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2000, 01:32:00 AM »
How about the dispersion? the SHvak barrels were fairly long and the overall wt. of the weapon was  up there a bit. With that kind of velocity and projectile stabilization I still feel that it should be deadlier than its modeled here.The pattern of fire just makes no sense, it almost appears like them old gun camera films where the plane/recoil is rattling the camera , bullets flying every which way. There's alot more to ballistics than just the projectile wt. and velocity.

[This message has been edited by carl (edited 08-25-2000).]

GZR_Buffalo

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SHvak cannon
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2000, 03:03:00 AM »
You guys are somewhat far away from the mark with this discussion. When comparing the destructive capability of an air-to-air cannon armament, a 10% difference in muzzle velocity is insignificant.

Remember, we are not shooting deers with expanding soft-tipped bullets, we are shooting a (mostly) aluminium airframe with very little armor here and there. So the kinetic energy has very little play in the damage caused by a hit. All these weapons are capable of punching a 20mm hole right through the whole structure, and in most cases also throug any armor carried by a fighter aircraft.

But the real question lies in the destructive capability of the explosion of the shell. The ShVak was a magnificiently designed weapon, however you look at it, weight, rate of fire, and muzzle velocity, all very good. But it had lousy ammo, not from the ballistic viewpoint, but from the projectile viewpoint.

For some reason the Russians seemed to use mostly API type ammo (cheapest/easiest to mass produce???) and very rarely explosive shells. This is evident from the experience of Finnish Airforce fighting against La's and Yak's. The AP capability of the slug was generally not good either. Unable to punch throug the seat-armor of a 109 G2 (though only 1mm to spare).

Even the explosive shells were old fashioned TNT filled ones with non-hardened shell. They had dismal fragmentation pattern and low pressure wave.

Compare that to the MG151/20 that had the tungsten cored "Hartkernmunition" API at least occasionally available, and the very high explosive yield "Minengeschosse" commonly used after the start of '43.

The hexogen-filled, thin-walled "Minengeschosse" operated on the principle of generating very high pressure inside the airframe structure, tearing riveting and blowing surface sheeting away, causing massive structural damage. Even the 20mm version was able to down very sturdily built planes like Pe-2 with only a couple of hits to load-bearing parts of the airframe. Only a short burst, maybe 2-3 hits was enough to shear off the rear fuselage of a La-5.

One thing to add, FAF 109 pilots found out, that a La-5 (twin ShVak, no MG's)turning behind a 109 could not pull enough lead to register hits, so a 109 pilot was safe as long as he continued the max constant level turn. The stalemate was usually broken by starting a spiral climb, and climbing until the engine of the La ran out of power at higher altitudes. I remeber reading reports like "I had to go up to 7500m before I could dispose off the La".