Author Topic: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question  (Read 2641 times)

Offline Baumer

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2009, 03:26:36 PM »
The only wind level that effects the bomb trajectory is the level in which you release them.

I just did a test off-line to verify this, if you disagree perform the following test.

0-2K-   no wind
2-12k-   100mph west to east
12-14k-   20mph north to south

I upped a B-25C and dropped from 13K flying due north (20mph head wind 0 cross)

Calibrated ground speed = 270
E6B ground speed= 270

Lined up on target hanger (course and heading were due north) and hit it from 13k, dropping through a 100mph crosswind. If the lower wind levels were effecting the bombs I would have had to flown a different course and heading.
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2009, 03:30:58 PM »
Proof instead of a simple statement without data?

Everything in the atmosphere is effected by the atmosphere...including those things falling through the atmosphere.

Skydivers drift with the wind both in freefall and after opening their parachutes.  A skydiver that freefalls for 60 seconds will drift 1320 feet in a 15mph wind. (There will be other factors that come into effect as well such as forward throw from the aircraft at exit and any maneuvering the jumper does.  The 1320 feet number does not take into effect forward throw and assumes the jumper falls "straight" down.
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2009, 03:31:29 PM »
The only wind level that effects the bomb trajectory is the level in which you release them.

I just did a test off-line to verify this, if you disagree perform the following test.

0-2K-   no wind
2-12k-   100mph west to east
12-14k-   20mph north to south

I upped a B-25C and dropped from 13K flying due north (20mph head wind 0 cross)

Calibrated ground speed = 270
E6B ground speed= 270

Lined up on target hanger (course and heading were due north) and hit it from 13k, dropping through a 100mph crosswind. If the lower wind levels were effecting the bombs I would have had to flown a different course and heading.

I thought we were talking about terminal velocity.    The point at which a falling object stops accelerating.   :headscratch:

Stop (terminal)
Acceleration (velocity)
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2009, 03:33:07 PM »
That's because wind does not effect the bomb while falling.

Only the aircraft dropping it....

There have been a lot of skydivers having to find a ride back to the DZ because they thought the same thing. <G>


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Offline boomerlu

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2009, 03:41:34 PM »
I enjoy mental puzzles.

Consider this:

Wind 0-5k 0 @ 0kts
Wind 5-10k 225@10kts
Wind 10-15k 180@15kts
Wind 15-30k 090@25kts
Bomber drops bombs from 23k

Hypothesis:

For each and every unique arena wind layering set up, there exists only 2 solutions in terms of heading where the sums of the cross wind components cancel themselves out, yielding a trajectory that in essence would have the same effect/result as bombing either straight into or straight down wind in a single layer wind model.
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In the end, we want the final velocity vector to equal the velocity which the bomb would have had assuming no wind at all.

x(T) = x0(T) where x0 = integral[v0 dt] and v0 solves dv/dt = - k v^2 initial condition v = vinitial, x = xinitial and xinitial is fixed. This part is the no-wind model (substitute for your single wind layer). It suffices since we can always shift our frame of reference so that there is no wind, resulting only in a change in the velocity vector v, which is what we have control over in the first place.

To solve the multiple wind layer rigorously, we have to consider forces. Knowing the drag equation (force is proportional to the square of velocity) and knowing that force is the first derivative of velocity:

dv / dt = - k (n1 - v)^2 in wind layer 1
dv / dt = - k (n2 - v)^2 in wind layer 2
... etc

where k is the constant appearing in the drag equation and the n1, n2, ... etc are the wind speeds in each layer. To get the final velocity vector, we have to solve the first equation and find the final velocity, then take that velocity as the initial velocity for the second equation... and so forth until we have a velocity function v(t) over the whole range. We then have to integrate to get x(t) = integral[v(t) dt]. We then have to choose vinitial so that

x(T) = x0(T) where x0 = integral[v0 dt] and v0 solves dv/dt = - k v^2 initial condition v = vinitial, x = xinitial

These being nonlinear diffeqs, "all bets are off" mathematically.

However, my intuition says that there should only be one velocity heading vector at which this could work since we only have one variable under our control (vinitial) to solve for one variable we want (x(T)).

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« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 03:50:45 PM by boomerlu »
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2009, 03:41:54 PM »
I must be confused with the OP's question with all answers in this thread.

He wanted to know the terminal velocity, not drift, trajectory or anything else.

Unless he was asking the wrong question.  

Terminal velocity is the point at which the net force of a falling object is 0.   Whereas the (downward) force of gravity and the (upward) force of drag equal each other out and said object stops gaining speed.  

Depending on how far they fall, objects reach a certain speed where they STOP getting faster, and fall at a constant speed.
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Offline boomerlu

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2009, 03:44:10 PM »
Von, he was asking about this as well..

"Hypothesis: For each and every unique arena wind layering set up, there exists only 2 solutions in terms of heading where the sums of the cross wind components cancel themselves out, yielding a trajectory that in essence would have the same effect/result as bombing either straight into or straight down wind in a single layer wind model."
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2009, 03:55:16 PM »
Von, he was asking about this as well..

"Hypothesis: For each and every unique arena wind layering set up, there exists only 2 solutions in terms of heading where the sums of the cross wind components cancel themselves out, yielding a trajectory that in essence would have the same effect/result as bombing either straight into or straight down wind in a single layer wind model."

But it is Dale's world.

Assuming that g = 32' per second (squared) we still don't know any of the other variables such as the density o the atmosphere or the Cd, etc.
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Offline boomerlu

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2009, 03:56:59 PM »
But it is Dale's world.

Assuming that g = 32' per second (squared) we still don't know any of the other variables such as the density o the atmosphere or the Cd, etc.
True enough. We also don't know what the bombing model is, the wind model... etc.

I was just trying to give an answer for "real life".
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Offline shppr01

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2009, 04:02:45 PM »
Would that be an african bomb or a european bomb?
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2009, 04:04:46 PM »
Would that be an african bomb or a european bomb?


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Online Shuffler

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2009, 04:06:37 PM »
OK Holy Grail.....

Everyone knows that terminal velocity is zero. All terminals I have seen are situated in concrete.


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Offline oneway

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2009, 04:18:14 PM »
SKUZZY! I WANT LaTeX!

In the end, we want the final velocity vector to equal the velocity which the bomb would have had assuming no wind at all.

x(T) = x0(T) where x0 = integral[v0 dt] and v0 solves dv/dt = - k v^2 initial condition v = vinitial, x = xinitial and xinitial is fixed. Note this is a no-wind model, but it suffices since we can always shift our frame of reference so that there is no wind, resulting only in a change in the velocity vector v, which is what we have control over in the first place.

To solve this rigorously, we have to consider forces. Knowing the drag equation (force is proportional to the square of velocity) and knowing that force is the first derivative of velocity:

dv / dt = - k (n1 - v)^2 in wind layer 1
dv / dt = - k (n2 - v)^2 in wind layer 2
... etc

where k is the constant appearing in the drag equation and the n1, n2, ... etc are the wind speeds in each layer. To get the final velocity vector, we have to solve the first equation and find the final velocity, then take that velocity as the initial velocity for the second equation... and so forth until we have a velocity function v(t) over the whole range. We then have to integrate to get x(t) = integral[v(t) dt]. We then have to choose vinitial so that

x(T) = x0(T) where x0 = integral[v0 dt] and v0 solves dv/dt = - k v^2 initial condition v = vinitial, x = xinitial

These being nonlinear diffeqs, "all bets are off" mathematically.

However, my intuition says that there should only be one velocity heading vector at which this could work since we only have one variable under our control (vinitial) to solve for one variable we want (x(T)).

Welcome to classical mechanics, where we can't solve the sun-moon-Earth problem without a computer!

Actually 2 Is my hunch, one representing net up wind and the other net downwind...

Layer 1 = 0>5 20kts 360
Layer 2 = 10>15 0kts 180
Layer 3 = 15>20 10kts 270
Layer 4 = 0>5 10kts 090
Layer 5 = 20>25 10kts 360


Lets look at a simplistic example. Assume the bomb is at terminal velocity the moment it is released from 25k, the aircraft is traveling directly into the wind (layer 5), and the wind layers are all of the same magnitude, 5k separations, and their vectors represent the 4 cardinals of the compass, with the last (bottom layer) being the same direction as the initial layer.

Assume: The bomb sight is perfectly calibrated to the ground speed, such that if wind was consistent from drop alt to target, the bombardier need simply place his cross hairs on the target and pickle off bombs. The aircraft is flying due North into the wind with zero cross wind component relative to its trajectory. The bomb sight is a self compensating mechanism for head and tail wind components of any wind vector.

As the bomb falls through the first layer (20>25k...aka layer 5)...the bomb tracks perfectly to target.

When the bomb falls through layers 3 and 4, it drifts left then right the same distance; both vectors cancel themselves out during our bombs journey.

Upon entering layer 2, the bomb picks up what in essence is a 10kt tail wind. As the bomb enters the final layer, it encounters a 10kt relative head wind.

This bomb having transited through 5 different wind layers will still impact the target perfectly, as each of the four lower layers will have canceled themselves out, and the bomb sight was perfectly calibrated for the layer in which it dropped.

If the aircraft were flying directly down wind, the effect and result would be identical, hence the 2 solution theory.

Now consider this scenario:

Wind 0-5k 0 @ 0kts
Wind 5-10k 225@10kts
Wind 10-15k 180@15kts
Wind 15-30k 090@25kts

I propose that their exists 2 unique headings whereby the cross wind of this layering scheme is washed out, leaving only head or tail wind variables on the table to consider. Bomber pilots who are adept at bombing in the wind will recognize the benefit of calculating those two headings...

Of course without some form of drag value to calculate the speed of the bomb as it passes through various layers, its impossible to calculate.

Writing a computer program that does this would be simple if the values were known.

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Offline oneway

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2009, 04:20:13 PM »
Proof instead of a simple statement without data?

If you study the whole thread you will see proof that wind does indeed effect the trajectory of a bomb relative to a fixed land target, which of course is proof that "ONLY the speed of the airplane effects the bomb" is Wrong...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 04:29:31 PM by oneway »

Offline oneway

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Re: Terminal Velocity of Falling Objects Question
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2009, 04:24:31 PM »
I thought we were talking about terminal velocity.    The point at which a falling object stops accelerating.   :headscratch:

Stop (terminal)
Acceleration (velocity)

Terminal velocity is required to calculate the effect of the various wind layers as the bomb passes through them.

We would need to know how long it took to reach terminal velocity and what that velocity is to solve the puzzle.

The bottom line of what is needed is the time the object spends in each layer in order to calculate the cross wind components relative to the initial release trajectory