Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?

[Bronk]

LOL ack ack on a roll.

[rough_wood]

It's amazing how many people don't want other people to have the option to choose something that they don't want for themselves.

I don't like mustard because it reminds me of squishing caterpillars as a kid. It would be pretty retarded of me to say "Don't add mustard to your menu, this place is based on ketchup"

If it was added to the arena that concerns you, then it would concern you. Since we are discussing an arena that doesn't concern you... it doesn't concern you.

I know, it's hard to understand.

[saantana]

blabla

I know, it's hard to understand.

 

[Karnak]

It's amazing how many people don't want other people to have the option to choose something that they don't want for themselves.

I don't like mustard because it reminds me of squishing caterpillars as a kid. It would be pretty retarded of me to say "Don't add mustard to your menu, this place is based on ketchup"

If it was added to the arena that concerns you, then it would concern you. Since we are discussing an arena that doesn't concern you... it doesn't concern you.

I know, it's hard to understand.

If you could -poof- it in without costing any developer time I'd have no problem with it, but you can't.

[Magnus]

Amazing the propaganda people always have on the mind set that the F-86 would be the most dominant fighter.

Russian had way less combat aircraft in the war and yet when you look at the aircraft kill status they have more double digits of kills for amount of pilots in the war.

Also check the specification out on the Mig 15 ...... take a deep breath .......... now time to do your home work ..... time to read .....  

I also included some links of F-86 specifications

MIG 15 Aces of Korean War  

Quote from the linked article above ^^^^

Did differences in equipment explain the disparity? Probably not. Essentially the technological contest between the Soviet MiG-15 and the American F-86 Sabre was an even match. The MiG-15 studmuffinot was better than the F-86 in many aspects (superior climb rate, faster acceleration, more powerful weaponry) but the  F-86 Sabre compensated that with more stable diving, a better gunsight, and a g-suit for their pilots, allowing them to resist the tremendous g-forces involved in dogfights. So, the edge were the men in the cockpits, and in the "Honcho Period" the Soviets had such slight edge. Quoting Chuck Yeager: "It's the man, not the machine".

Additionally, Korea was for the Russian MiG-15 pilots a "target-rich environment." In April-May 1951 there were only two regiments of MiG-15s in Manchuria, with a total of only 72 MiGs (despite the fantastic US reports which talked about 200 MiGs in China at that time). These six dozen MiGs faced about 700 UN aircraft, odds of 10 to 1. The arrival of the 3 regiments of the 303rd IAD reduced the odds to 4 to 1 by October 1951, but the Soviets actually never enjoyed the numerical superiority so often mentioned in US sources. By July 1953 the Russians had about 300 MiG-15s in the theater (plus a similar number of Chinese MiGs) against 1,000 UN aircraft (297 of them F-86E/Fs, plus a similar number of F-84s). Taking into account such figures, it is clear that the Russians always found the Korean skies full of American aircraft, and that's why scores of 15, 10 or 8 were not uncommon.


Mig 15 Specifications Link



Quote from above link ^^^^

Mig 15 "studmuffinot"

Specifications
Span    33 ft. 1 1/2 in.
Length    33 ft. 3 5/8 in.
Height    11 ft. 2 in.
Weight    11,270 lbs. max.
Armament    Two 23mm cannons and one 37mm cannon, plus rockets or 2,000 lbs. of bombs
Engine    VK-1 of 6,000 lbs. thrust (copy of British Rolls-Royce "Nene" engine)
Maximum speed    670 mph.
Cruising speed    525 mph.
Range    500 miles
Service Ceiling    51,000 ft.



F86 Aces of Korean War



F-86 Specification

Quote from above link ^^^^^

F-86 "Sabre"

Specifications
Wing Span   35 feet, 11 inches
Length    37 feet, 6 inches
Height    14 feet, 8 inches
Weight    13,791 lbs. loaded
Armament    Six .50-caliber machine guns and eight 5-inch rockets or 2,000 lbs. of bombs
Engine    One General Electric
J47 engine with 5,200 lbs. of thrust
Cost    $178,000
Maximum speed    685 mph
Cruising speed    540 mph
Range    1,200 miles
Service Ceiling    49,000 feet

Quoting Chuck Yeager: "It's the man, not the machine"

 

[Nemisis]

Someone get the "holy necro bump" picture in here quick!!!!!!!!

[Simaril]

Magnus:

Many of the pilots flying against the US were also skilled ww2 veterans, so more than piloting skills were in action. The extraordinary disparity in kill ratio was a puzzle to even some of the American pilots who flew in Korea, enough so that one of them -- Col. John Boyd -- spent enormous time analyzing the problem.

And that led to one of the 20th century's most important conceptual advances in combat theory -- the OODA loop. Boyd imagined that in combat information was processed in a particular way. First the pilot would OBSERVE what was happening, then he needed to ORIENT that observation into context enough to decide what it meant. Only after that could he DECIDE what to do and then ACT on the decision. Success would require continuously passing through those stages, with the victory going to the pilot who could make the best, fastest decision.

Which leads to the biggest thing your stats left out....the Mig-15 had entirely manual, human powered controls, while the F86 had hydraulic assistence. That meant the US pilot could consistently get his plane into and through manuevers faster than his Godless Commie opponent, and get decisive advantages even when pilot skill was equal.

The OODA loop is the origin of the "speed kills" concept of air-ground combat underlying current US tactics. Move so fast that the enemy never gets a chance to orient, keep things changing so rapidly that you have steamrolled him before he knows you're even close.


The OODA loop became critical to ground combat theory in the last 15 years, to the point that I'm told Boyd is one of the few USAF officers to be honored with Globe and Anchor insignia being placed in his casket. I've also read that his portrait hangs in the USMC headquarters.

[phatzo]

Mig 15 "studmuffinot"
 

[Karnak]

Stuff

All of that misses the point, which is that the vast majority of players will want to fly the USA's fighter and not the evil Commie fighter.

[JunkyII]

I want to play in Korea











 

[Gabriel]

Magnus:

Many of the pilots flying against the US were also skilled ww2 veterans, so more than piloting skills were in action. The extraordinary disparity in kill ratio was a puzzle to even some of the American pilots who flew in Korea, enough so that one of them -- Col. John Boyd -- spent enormous time analyzing the problem.

And that led to one of the 20th century's most important conceptual advances in combat theory -- the OODA loop. Boyd imagined that in combat information was processed in a particular way. First the pilot would OBSERVE what was happening, then he needed to ORIENT that observation into context enough to decide what it meant. Only after that could he DECIDE what to do and then ACT on the decision. Success would require continuously passing through those stages, with the victory going to the pilot who could make the best, fastest decision.

Which leads to the biggest thing your stats left out....the Mig-15 had entirely manual, human powered controls, while the F86 had hydraulic assistence. That meant the US pilot could consistently get his plane into and through manuevers faster than his Godless Commie opponent, and get decisive advantages even when pilot skill was equal.

The OODA loop is the origin of the "speed kills" concept of air-ground combat underlying current US tactics. Move so fast that the enemy never gets a chance to orient, keep things changing so rapidly that you have steamrolled him before he knows you're even close.


The OODA loop became critical to ground combat theory in the last 15 years, to the point that I'm told Boyd is one of the few USAF officers to be honored with Globe and Anchor insignia being placed in his casket. I've also read that his portrait hangs in the USMC headquarters.

Interesting, and I of course agree that anything that distracts from situational awareness and focus on the combat itself should be viewed as a major flaw.

Luckily, though, not a gram of any of that would be a part of how the Mig 15 or any other plane is flown in game.

[Simaril]

Interesting, and I of course agree that anything that distracts from situational awareness and focus on the combat itself should be viewed as a major flaw.

Luckily, though, not a gram of any of that would be a part of how the Mig 15 or any other plane is flown in game.

Dont be so sure. THink about how the zero gets really stiff unresponsive controls at high speeds...which is about exactly what we'd see in a Mig-15 model, I suspect.

That the stiffness comes from lack of hydraulics rather than pure aerodynamics won't matter a bit when you're in a fight.

[Magnus]

Mig 15 Aces of Korean War

Mig 15 Specifications Link


Quote from above link ^^^^

Mig 15 "studmuffinot"

Specifications
Span    33 ft. 1 1/2 in.
Length    33 ft. 3 5/8 in.
Height    11 ft. 2 in.
Weight    11,270 lbs. max.
Armament    Two 23mm cannons and one 37mm cannon, plus rockets or 2,000 lbs. of bombs
Engine    VK-1 of 6,000 lbs. thrust (copy of British Rolls-Royce "Nene" engine)
Maximum speed    670 mph.
Cruising speed    525 mph.
Range    500 miles
Service Ceiling    51,000 ft.



F86 Aces of Korean War



F-86 Specification

Quote from above link ^^^^^

F-86 "Sabre"

Specifications
Wing Span   35 feet, 11 inches
Length    37 feet, 6 inches
Height    14 feet, 8 inches
Weight    13,791 lbs. loaded
Armament    Six .50-caliber machine guns and eight 5-inch rockets or 2,000 lbs. of bombs
Engine    One General Electric
J47 engine with 5,200 lbs. of thrust
Cost    $178,000
Maximum speed    685 mph
Cruising speed    540 mph
Range    1,200 miles
Service Ceiling    49,000 feet

Quoting Chuck Yeager: "It's the man, not the machine"

 

Now lets look at the information provided. Since your not going to the max straight in line performance of the aircraft in turns, loops,  low yo yo's ...etc. Thus this happening both planes will be slowed down. Now it comes back to the pilot of the aircraft. We see this in Aces High II in the WWII fighters we fly now.


It's been know for many years that the .50 cal machine guns had some flaws and jammed. That's why they have six.

But what does the Russian have. Ah! yes 2 cannons - 23 MM & 37 MM cannons. Thus saying both are using older weapons technology from WWII.

But if you are down to lower speed and we get a more turning fight and use the full effects of the aerodynamics of both aircraft. And the pilot of the Mig 15 gets his shots on the F86 with 2 or 3 rounds of 37MM in the wing of the F86, that baby is going down. Even a few shots the 23MM cannon will bring a aircraft down.

Russian Mig 15 where built to take down enemy B29 bombers quickly. But the Russian Aces knew that if you can kill a big bomber quickly then a small fighter is going to get a torn up and go down quickly missing wings and etc. Let alone damage hydraulic controls with one 23MM or 37MM cannon round. What happens if you have no hydraulic to help your rudder, etc ...your in sorry shape the least, if it stays attached.

Remember the IL-2  Type 3M - tank killer? ..... ring a bell .... IL-2 Type 3M - 2 x 37mm cannon ........how many pilots try to HO an IL-2 in Aces High or has been on the deadly end of their 2 x 37MM cannons.

HMMMmm! .... Didn't come away with a clean kill. You were either damaged or killed. You would of had to BnZ him from above, but watch your back side on pull out and climbing.  



So it still comes back to the pilots knowledge of his aircraft and how well he uses the aircraft to the limits.

And a nice cannon round....

[Karnak]

Remember the IL-2  Type 3M - tank killer? ..... ring a bell .... IL-2 Type 3M - 2 x 37mm cannon ........how many pilots try to HO an IL-2 in Aces High or has been on the deadly end of their 2 x 37MM cannons.

HMMMmm! .... Didn't come away with a clean kill. You were either damaged or killed. You would of had to BnZ him from above, but watch your back side on pull out and climbing.  



So it still comes back to the pilots knowledge of his aircraft and how well he uses the aircraft to the limits.

And a nice cannon round....

You know, talking down to us and thinking we don't know what it means by 23mm and 37mm cannons is not going to win you any arguments.  We know that the Russian guns can hit hard, it is the entire point of the Yak-9T.  We know the F-86 was armed with six Browning M3 .50 cal machine guns with about 50% faster rate of fire than the Browning M2 .50 cal guns on the WWII American fighters.

I believe that would all be moot simply due to the choice between two aircraft that are fairly close in performance and one of which is from the USA and the other from the nasty, evil (not in a cool way like Nazi Germany) USSR.   Americans, due to our history, have a much larger antipathy for totalitarian leftist nations than for totalitarian rightist nations.  This is the opposite of European perspective, due to their history.

[Simaril]

You know, talking down to us and thinking we don't know what it means by 23mm and 37mm cannons is not going to win you any arguments.  We know that the Russian guns can hit hard, it is the entire point of the Yak-9T.  We know the F-86 was armed with six Browning M3 .50 cal machine guns with about 50% faster rate of fire than the Browning M2 .50 cal guns on the WWII American fighters.

I believe that would all be moot simply due to the choice between two aircraft that are fairly close in performance and one of which is from the USA and the other from the nasty, evil (not in a cool way like Nazi Germany) USSR.   Americans, due to our history, have a much larger antipathy for totalitarian leftist nations than for totalitarian rightist nations.  This is the opposite of European perspective, due to their history.

Well said