Author Topic: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?  (Read 8505 times)

Offline Yeager

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2009, 11:43:01 PM »
I think it would be a HUGE mistake for HTC to limit themselves to just WW2.  I am confident that they will add a WW1 component soon, and I would be willing to bet that eventually a Korean war component will be part of the AH evolution.  I do not know what the creators of AH think about modern weapons systems and avionics modeling but I would be willing to bet they would seriously consider a Vietnam component at "some point in the future".  Who knows they may live long enough to do modern air warfare.....that is unless they are planning on pulling the plug on AH once the creators get old and die.  Who knows......

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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2009, 12:03:35 AM »
Aces High is still WWII based. They are just trying the WWI bit for some that for some reason came to a WWII game wanting to play WWI. Go figure.

Ah not completely true. I am sure alot came for the dogfights and adding a WWI arena or a later one only enhances the playabilty.

I never saw ACE's HIGH as a WWII simulator but a flight simulator with some other enhancements to help the air combat. I think HTC stated that he wanted to build the best flight simulator of its kind. If I am wrong Im sure someone will let me know.

Offline danny37

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2009, 12:08:45 AM »
MIG-17's didn't see action in the Korean Conflict..  I don't think P-47's did either..  
Anyhow, I'd much rather see them improve what we've already got....  There are models in the game that still have Octagonal front ends, for heaven's sake!!

yes,p47n's did see action in korea in the very begining,along with p51s which were changed to f51s and f4us.
they were used for ground support,dive bombing vehicles,straffing troops

but im with everyone else,jet on jet plane set would be long and boring,you think the mustang is runner.
i could see it now,chasing mig-15s for 3 sectors just to have em ack hug,no thanks.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 12:13:43 AM by danny37 »

Offline JunkyII

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2009, 02:22:12 AM »
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not right now but +1 for a Korean War plane set in the future once the WW2 plane set is finished
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2009, 04:16:32 AM »
Quote
Ah not completely true. I am sure alot came for the dogfights and adding a WWI arena or a later one only enhances the playabilty.


So you dont think there will be vulching, pick and running, and just plain running in the WW-1 forum?

Tho overall I agree. For dogfighting WW-1 makes more sense. I have no real interest in it but that doesnt mean others wont like it and it shows a vision. Besides you cant judge anything right now.
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2009, 10:43:42 AM »
I think including Korea it would be an interesting idea but agree there could be some issues regarding mixing props and jets.  As for jet being the death of ACM, that's just crazy.  Korea was the time when most of the modern theories of ACM such as energy fighting were finally recognized and developed.  Jets rapidly evolved after WWII but during Korea the improvements were focused more on the airframe and engine technology rather than weapon systems.  They were better jets but they still had WWII era weapons (with a single exception) so ACM remained the primary means to achieve an air-to-air kill  (get on his six and gun his brains out).  It may be a good idea to consider a Korean JET only arena to minimize the differential in aircraft speeds and preclude excessive hit and run tactics.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 10:45:14 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2009, 02:06:04 PM »
Mace2004,

The problem is that those engine improvements, coupled with the long, slow turns for 500+mph combat make a lot of classic tactics almost unusable.  Bleeding the E out of a F-86 or MiG-15 while flying one of them is very difficult due to the increased power to weight ratios and the decreased ability to apply pressure.

Korea would not be a good arena for ACM leading to a kill.  Almost all kills would be ambush kills where the victim never saw his killer.
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Offline Fencer51

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2009, 02:20:06 PM »
The Korean War was the last pure gun air to air fight.  Flying Mig 15s vs F86s would be a great experience and SEA events with a good planeset would be very entertaining.
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Offline coola4me

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2009, 02:55:25 PM »
I do believe that alot of American Korean war pilots were WWII vets that had plenty of experience in air to air combat (dogfighting)! They still used the 50 cal on most of the jet birds! All in all adding another arena would be logical later on of course! I do agree with others that would like to see the WWII planeset to be completed before adding either WWI or Korean war arenas! Of course I don't make those decisions even though I'm a paying customer!
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Offline Anodizer

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2009, 02:59:21 PM »
Ok..  A concern in regards to a Korean War arena is this: 
In a prop fighter, around 350-400mph, it's pretty easy to black out if you turn just a tad too tight..
Korean era jets will be doing at least 450mph while "fighting"..  I can only imagine what a turn
at around 600mph would be like..  Instant black out....? 
Also, I dabbled in AW for a time and the Korean era was exactly as described....Boring..
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2009, 03:33:03 PM »
I think some will find it fun and new.

I voted for the Korea war plane set and arena.

Just a thought and my 2 cents from a paying customer.  :salute

Thats a big 'ol "no go" on that one....
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2009, 06:19:33 PM »
The problem is that those engine improvements, coupled with the long, slow turns for 500+mph combat make a lot of classic tactics almost unusable.  Bleeding the E out of a F-86 or MiG-15 while flying one of them is very difficult due to the increased power to weight ratios and the decreased ability to apply pressure.

This is incorrect.  First, even with the improved engines none of the Korean War vintage fighters came even close to a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio and bleeding is exactly what they did.  Yes, all of the jets were faster than their contemporary prop-driven counterparts which is why I suggested that limiting the arena to jets would limit the hit and run tactics but, since all the jets performed in the same speed range, two opposing jets would have no greater ability to shoot and scoot than we see now with the props.  

Second, jets are governed by the same aerodynamic properties as props.  Turning above corner velocity results in reduced turn performance (called "arcing") and you still get max instantaneous turn at corner, not at 500+mph.  Combine that with the fact that older jets bled like stuck pigs, nose low turns were required to sustain corner velocity and high speed fights rapidly degenerated into slow ones.  Sound familiar?  It should as it's not really any different than what we see now.  That's not to say that there are no differences of course.  

Props are more efficient as airspeed is reduced while jets are more efficient as airspeed increases.  This changes the dynamics of the fight but the fundamentals remain the same.  From a dynamics perspective sustained turn speeds (Ps=0) are much closer to corner velocity because the jet engines (especially non-afterburning ones like in Korea) require ram air to generate the thrust required to sustain best level turn performance while props tend to have best sustained turn performance near stall.  That said, corner velocity remains defined by the intersection of the lift limit with load limit.  Jets therefore have a smaller optimum performance range but the maneuvers and goals remain exactly the same.  Barrel rolls, lag rolls, lead/lag/pure pursuit, high and low yo-yos, one-circle/two-circle fights, etc., etc., are the same whether you're in a jet or prop.  Actually, the concepts of energy and angles fights came out of jet combat in Korea, not WWII.  That hasn't stopped us from applying those concepts to WWII fighters.

There really ends up being only a few noticeable differences.  Forward quarter closure is much higher meaning you have to "think" farther out.  There can be a smaller window for high angle snapshots.  The biggest difference would be the "size" of the fight.  Even though the same principles apply, jets are still generally faster than props.  This means larger turn radius equating to a "larger" fight.  But, since the same occurs for both jets and the speeds are still similar to the WWII arenas (i.e., subsonic) this won't have a major effect.

The major differences in ACM occurred after the invention of air-to-air missiles and radar.  This had a major effect on ACM because you couldn't just extend away because you'd receive a heater enema.  Beyond Visual Range missiles meant the ACM environment expanded and sudden death from a BVR bandit became a concern.  Of course, none of that applies in Korea.

Quote
Korea would not be a good arena for ACM leading to a kill.  Almost all kills would be ambush kills where the victim never saw his killer.
This is no different than either WWII or WWI.  Most kills have always been from the unobserved Bandit.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 06:39:09 PM by Mace2004 »
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Offline whiteman

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2009, 08:10:59 PM »
Korea areana might bring me back quicker if ever added

Offline druski85

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2009, 08:19:01 PM »


Mace I fully understand what you are saying here, and I'm in no position to disagree with your points.  However let me ask you the the following -- Are 262 vs 262 fights in any way enjoyable to you? Cause to me it's like watching paint dry.  Give me a couple jugs or 109s any day of the week. 

Offline Slash27

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Re: Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2009, 11:24:10 PM »
The Korean War was the last pure gun air to air fight.  Flying Mig 15s vs F86s would be a great experience and SEA events with a good planeset would be very entertaining.

Yep, HTC could pull off a Korean Theater no problem and it would be fun as hell.