Author Topic: You Decide  (Read 1632 times)

Offline Wagger

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You Decide
« on: October 25, 2009, 10:02:34 AM »
pre•tend    (pr -t nd ) 
VERB:
pre•tend•ed , pre•tend•ing , pre•tends
VERB:
tr.
1.   To give a false appearance of; feign: "You had to pretend conformity while privately pursuing high and dangerous nonconformism" (Anthony Burgess).
2.   To claim or allege insincerely or falsely; profess: doesn't pretend to be an expert.
3.   To represent fictitiously in play; make believe: pretended they were on a cruise.(pretend another unit was the enemy)
4.   To take upon oneself; venture: I cannot pretend to say that you are wrong.


sim•u•late    (s m y -l t )
TRANSITIVE VERB:
sim•u•lat•ed , sim•u•lat•ing , sim•u•lates
1.         a. To have or take on the appearance, form, or sound of; imitate.
              b. To make in imitation of or as a substitute for. See Synonyms at imitate.

2.   To make a pretense of; feign: simulate interest.
3.   To create a representation or model of (a physical system or particular situation, for example).



notional definition
no•tional (nō′s̸hə nəl)
adjective
1.   of, expressing, or consisting of notions, or concepts
2.   imaginary; not actual to inhabit a notional world

3.   ☆ having visionary ideas; given to whims; fanciful
4.   Gram. having full lexical, as distinguished from relational, meaning “have” is notional in “we have a problem” and relational in “we have solved a problem”

I spent 22 years in the US Army as and Infantryman. Now in those years we always went to the field and trained.  Over the years they had more than one name for the same thing.  When I first joined we would pretend another unit was the enemy.  He would use our tactics or Soviet tactics.  After I became an NCO it was changed.  We did not pretend any more.  We had units Simulate being the enemy.  Same tactics though.  When I became a Senior NCO and Mechanized Infantry Platoon Trainer at the National Training Center at Ft Irwin it took on a whole new life.  Now it was Notional Play.  The difference was the the units playing the bad guys were damn good.  But guess what? Same concept.  Now when I hear the argument about whether it is a game or a simulation, I just think to myself it is just possible it could be notional play.




Offline bj229r

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2009, 10:17:06 AM »
I always wondered about that...do they put serious training time into 'opposing' forces that they better simulate the enemy in scenarios?
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Offline Wagger

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 10:42:25 AM »
The National Training Center at Ft Irwin has a dedicated OPFOR, (Opposing Forces), Unit.  The train strictly in enemy forces tactics.  There are, if I remember right, 3 Training Centers that have these OPFOR units.  One at Ft Polk LA, Ft Irwin California and CMTC now known as JMRC in Hoenfels Germany.  Their missions are to set up the most realistic training available for our ground forces.  It is accomplished through the use of Force on Force Training using the Miles, (Multiple Integrated Laser Equipment System). The NTC can accommodate Brigade size units in these operations to include Live Fire Exercises in Offensive and Defensive Exercises.  The OPFOR  represent Regimental size units.  I have been retired since 2000 so I can not say what training is available based on todays needs but know that the Army has answered these needs to the best of my knowledge.   

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 10:52:39 AM »
With the exception of scientific and logical terminology which have stipulated definitions, I do not believe that natural language consists of discreet meanings.  So for the difference between "game," and "simulation," all we are going to find are tendencies of difference, not rules.  Simulations emphasize detailed accuracy and limitations that might impede on enjoyment, games not so much, but this is not to say that there aren't some games that may have more detailed accuracy and limitations than other things we might call simulations.

However, what is wrong is to say that the above means that there is no meaningful distinction to be made between games and simulations.  Most importantly, it is a useful distinction for predicting human software preferences.  If you know that I like games more than simulations, then you can make accurate predictions about what I will prefer and what I will dislike.  What's more, marketers study these distinctions and know that something you would call a game is going to make more money than something you would call a simulation, unless the latter has a more specific commercial purpose for training personnel.

As for Aces High, and whether it is a simulation or a game, it has aspects of both in my opinion.  Insisting it is one or the other is silly.  I would like to see it move more toward the simulation spectrum, but naturally there are game aspects that I wish to remain.

For the record, those who like to say, "you don't really die," also should point out that you don't really fly, shoot, or do anything in a computer simulation/game, except for simulated dying, flying, and shooting in the game.
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Offline Wagger

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 12:50:55 PM »
 :cheers:

Offline TEShaw

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 12:59:29 PM »
I hesitate to offer this again; but, Anaxogoras was profound and thorough...

Use of the term, 'cartoon airplane', merely represents a lack of imagination.

regards, teshaw

Offline Chalenge

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2009, 01:02:30 PM »
It will always be a game... in a simulation or 'notional play' you can still experience injury but in AH aside from potential carpal tunnel you are pretty much safe.  :D
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Offline Wagger

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2009, 01:10:57 PM »
I hesitate to offer this again; but, Anaxogoras was profound and thorough...

Use of the term, 'cartoon airplane', merely represents a lack of imagination.

regards, teshaw

This is a you decide subject.  It does not refer to other postings.  And to come to Anaxogoras defense He did not say anything about cartoon planes in this thread. Don't high jack the thread.

Offline TinmanX

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 01:12:09 PM »
The Military is great at changing the names of things over time....

American Civil war soldiers suffered from Soldiers Heart
During WWI it was called Shell Shock
By WWII it was called Battle Fatigue
During the Korean War it had been renamed War Neurosis
Vietnam Vets were found to suffer from Post-Vietnam Syndrome
Now we have our soldiers dignosed as suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
"...and then we discovered why. Why this 'Cheech', who had fought with gods and demons, why he flew the Zeke. He was being kind, giving us a chance to run away."
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I'm the "timid" "runner" in the zeke "BnZing" you.

Offline TEShaw

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 01:15:58 PM »
This is a you decide subject.  It does not refer to other postings.  And to come to Anaxogoras defense He did not say anything about cartoon planes in this thread. Don't high jack the thread.

You are somehow miscomprehending.

And, I was admiring Anaxogoras' stuff.

And, what I said was utterly appropriate to the context of the thread.

So now, I'll leave your ignorant thread alone.

Offline BigR

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 01:55:19 PM »
Its a game. Everyone get over yourselves.  :neener:

Offline kilo2

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 02:13:11 PM »
It will always be a game... in a simulation or 'notional play' you can still experience injury but in AH aside from potential carpal tunnel you are pretty much safe.  :D

I do believe you are wrong on this for example in a jet simulator there is no chance of injury. Unless you trip going up the steps :lol.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2009, 02:19:19 PM »
I do believe you are wrong on this for example in a jet simulator there is no chance of injury. Unless you trip going up the steps :lol.

Then its a game.
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Offline Wagger

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2009, 02:25:21 PM »
To TSHaw:  I do humbly apologize :aok if I misconstrued you comments.  I stand corrected.

Offline Boxboy

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Re: You Decide
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2009, 11:33:27 AM »
It's a game because the creator said it was, period, any arguement after that is moot  :cool:
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