Author Topic: P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson  (Read 4381 times)

Offline Curly

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2001, 09:21:00 AM »
oops. wrong topic


[This message has been edited by Curly (edited 02-03-2001).]

Offline Westy

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2001, 09:38:00 AM »

Frenchy, we have icons. They did not. We don't die, but they certainly did.
 
  Johnson was also flying against the cream of the crop on the western front from
 1943 into 44. He left in May 44, not 45, so I would not saying he was running into
 newbies and low ait time replacmement pilots. 27 kills, all airborne and against
 a well trained and battle experienced foe. I wonder how many more aircaft he would
 have shot down over the course of the next year had he continued flying in action.
 I have no doubt he would have been the all time top US ace, unless he'd also been
 given the same straffing duty which was to account for more USAAF fighter pilots
 being shot down than anything else by far in Europe.

  We can never, ever duplicate what they went through at all. And because of that we
 will never see realistic behavior online. In scenarios you will see similar
 tactics used, but that's about as close as you get, IMO.

  Thanks for adding that story in Danish. I enjoy reading all interviews and
 stories, regardless of which side they were on during the war.

     -Westy

Offline Lephturn

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2001, 12:07:00 PM »
Thanks for that Widewing!  

Ok, I am now off to bribe my crewchief to adjust the wategate pressures on my Jug.  I want to see what this beast will do with 72" of induction pressure!  Holy crap.

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Offline Widewing

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2001, 01:14:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Lephturn:
Thanks for that Widewing!  

Ok, I am now off to bribe my crewchief to adjust the wategate pressures on my Jug.  I want to see what this beast will do with 72" of induction pressure!  Holy crap.

In support of Johnson's claim, I present P-47 pilot Frank Klibbe, who has described his T-Bolt, 'Little Chief' as being 'souped up' with wastegate adjustments that allowed "illegal manifold pressures up to 72 inches."

Bob Coiro of the P-47 Alumni Association estimates that Johnson's engine was probably pushing in excess of 2,600 hp, if not more. We do know that Republic Aviation spent a great of time and money endurance testing R-2800 'B' series engines at much higher than normal boost pressures. Generally speaking, these engines held up very well at 72 in/Hg for long periods.

Of course, we have to consider the ramafications of applying wastegate adjustments to the R-2800 'C' series engines in the P-47M. The M was capable of 470-475 mph @ 32,000 feet as delivered to the AAF. This engine was rated for 2,800 hp at 72 in/hg in WEP. What happens if you pull 75 inches, or even 80 inches of MAP? Well, we just happen to know, because Republic actually tested engines at these power settings.

Republic's Chief Test Pilot, Lowery Brabham revealed that the engineering staff had run one engine at 3,600 hp (3,000 rpm @ 80 in/Hg)without "any reported problems."

To support the possiblity that M models were 'souped up', we need only listen to some of the pilots who flew the P-47M with the 56th. I believe that it was Major Michael Jackson of the 62nd FS who insisted that he saw level speeds nudging 500 mph. In light of the power output capability of the R-2800 'C' series, along with the simple and generally known method of producing remarkably high power, I don't doubt Jackson's claim one bit.

My regards,

Widewing

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Buzzbait

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2001, 03:55:00 PM »
S! all

Bob Johnson was one of the most deadly fighter pilots ever to fly in the Western European Theater.  His 28 kills were accomplished in only 92 sorties for a kill to sortie ratio of 1-3.28.  That's better than most of the German Aces, including Hartmann, who got his 352 victories in 1,425 sorties, for a 1-4.05 ratio.  And as mentioned above, Johnson flew from July of 1943 to May 1944, at a time when the Luftwaffe pilot skill level was very high.  At the rate he was scoring at the end of his tour, if he had been returned for an additional crack at the Germans, its likely he would have scored in the 40+ range as did Richard Bong.  Bong and Johnson were tied at 28, when both were returned to the States for a Propaganda tour.  (They had both just broken Eddie Rickenbacker's old record)

As far hotrodding engines is concerned:

Americans had grown up in a society which was much more heavily mechanized than Europeans were accustomed to.  Tinkering with the family car, or farm vehicles was common, and 'doing it yourself' was standard practice.  Americans were comfortable with engines and the concept of 'hotrodding' them for additional performance.  Many of the mechanics in the Army Air Force had been previously employed in industry or car repair shops.

It was natural to apply the same techniques to the aircraft which they were in charge of.  Additionally, the pilots themselves were also mechanically conversant, and expected this kind of tinkering, and encouraged their crew chiefs to engage in 'hotrodding'.  When you combine this attitude of 'can do', with an overbuilt engine like the Pratt and Whitney Radial, you have a guarantee that most of the P-47 aircraft in the hangers of USAAF squadrons were not running factory spec levels of boost.

And that would explain why Johnson and many other P-47 pilots insist their Jugs could out-spiral climb any German aircraft they ran into.

By the way, in regards to roll rate:  The Jug does outroll the FW190 at speeds over around 375mph TAS.  If you read the accounts of Johnson's combats, he is almost always operating at high speeds.

                    Cheers Buzzsaw

Offline BBGunn

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2001, 06:09:00 PM »
Enjoyed the interview: thanks for taking the time to post it.  

Offline Jekyll

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2001, 06:22:00 PM »
When I think of Robert Johnson I often think of how Fate can make heroes or non-entities of us all.

Remember Johnson's early mission where his Jug was shot absolutely full of 20mm rounds?  I think at that stage he had one victory under his belt.  He desperately tried to bail out but was unable to as a 20mm round had jammed his canopy shut.

Had that single round missed, Johnson would have bailed and become a POW, and we never would have heard of him.

A single 20mm round connects, in the right place, and the result is the highest scoring ace in the USAAF.

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Offline Pongo

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2001, 08:01:00 PM »
Turns out colour plant 25 from my new osprey book is "Lucky".. Graphic on the nose is of a hand flipping the finger.

Offline -ammo-

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2001, 08:05:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing:
I was somewhat skeptical about Johnson's insistance about the P-47s rolling ability. However, there are two things to keep in mind. Johnson was never discussing a snap roll. He describes a tightened barrel roll, more of corkscrew spiral than a snap roll along the linear axis. The second thing was related to me by Gabby Gabreski. Actually, he was talking to someone else and I was simply eavesdropping.  

Gabby said that Johnson was one of the strongest men he had ever met. He described Johnson as having forearms like "Popeye". Considering that one limiting factor in high speed rolling is the ability of the pilot to deflect the ailerons, I must wonder if Johnson's impressive upper-body strength gave him an advantage.

My regards,

Widewing

Hmm, havent even considered this. Very possible. BTW i met Gabby myself at a recent convention in Raliegh NC. Super Guy, and the name Gabby seems to fit Hub Zemke acknowledged that the Jug was inferior to the 190 and 109 (keep in mind these were 43-44 crates) in turning and climbing ability under 20,000 ft. He described a dogfight in which he and a German Flyer fought to the deck (the German was in a 190) and he quickly realized he was not in a good situation. He blew his altitude anvantage and after 2 passes and tried to fight the guy in climbing turns. The 190 quickly gained an advantage and after a couple of headon passes he was out of ammo. He decided to exit the fight, and to his relief the German did the same in the opposite direction. Apparently out of ammo also. Now as far as the jugs roll rate, I havent read anything other than what Bob Johnson has said to quantify a really high rate of roll. I know that Hub mentioned it in a book I read but dont recall him saying the jug held an advantage over the LW ac. I just mailed the book back to a squadie, maybe he can chime in with a rference from Hub. Now Hub Zemke was a genious and a nutsy type of fella to disreguard early 8th AF brass directives on how they would go about escort duty. He was the Benchmark on success in the roll of bomber escort duty. Everyoneone that served as pilots in the 56th FG owes much to him and his way of thinking.

<S>

ammo
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Buzzbait

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2001, 10:01:00 PM »
S! all

In regards to the controversy as to whether a P47d had a spiral climb which could defeat a German aircraft.  Certainly the 109's had a better spiral climb.  But as far as the 190 is concerned...


The following is an excerpt from a 1943 USAAF test comparison between a Fw190A5 (I believe it was an A5/U8 as the picture shows no outer wing Cannon or cowling Mg) and a P-47D-4. The A-5 had its two inner wing Cannon removed and equivalent weights substituted as well as weights to represent the outer wing cannon and the cowling machine guns. The FW190 was described: "...as in exceptionally good condition for a captured airplane, and developed 42 inches manifold pressure on takeoff." (equivalent to 1.45 atas) The P-47 was equipped with Water Injection but not with a paddle bladed propellor.  It had the early 'toothpick' propellor.

The tests were done between S.L. and 15,000ft. The pilot of the P-47 had 200 hours in P-40's and 5 hours in the P-47. The Fw190 Pilot had 300 hours in twin engine, 500 hours in single engine and 5 hours in the Fw190. Four separate flights of one hour each were conducted. All speeds are in IAS.

>>>>>>>>>

Recorded Results

1) Acceleration

(a) 210mph to 275mph at 2,000ft. The Fw190 accelerated faster than the P-47 and gained approx. 200yds during the acceleration.
(b) 210mph to 275mph at 5,000ft. Results: Same.
(c) 200mph to full power at 5,000ft. The Fw190 accelerated faster than the P-47 initially and gained about 200yds, but at a speed of 330mph the P-47 rapidly overtook the Fw190 and gained about 2,000yds very quickly and was still accelerating. Water injection was used by the P-47.
(d) 220mph to 300mph with full throttle at 15,000ft. Again the Fw190 initially gained about 200yds but the P-47 quickly overtook it. The FW high speed supercharger cut in automatically at this altitude, and this supercharger seemed to cut in at lower altitudes when a speed in excess of 340mph was attained by diving.

2) Climb

(a) 2,000ft to 7,000ft, starting at 250mph. Both airplanes were pulled up rapidly to the angle of maximum climb and held until altitude of 8,500 was reached. The Fw190 climbed faster than the P-47 through the first 1500 ft, but the P-47 quickly overtook it and steadily outclimbed it by 500 ft per minute. The P-47 used water injection and slightly overheated, while the FW190 did not overheat.
(b) 10,000ft to 15,000ft, starting at 250mph. Again the Fw190 initially outclimbed the P-47 through the first 1,000ft, however the P-47 rapidly overtook and reached 15,000ft while the Focke Wulf was at 14,500ft.

3) Diving

(a) 10,000-3,000ft, starting at 250mph diving at an angle of 65 degrees with constant throttle setting. The Fw190 pulled away rapidly at the beginning, but the P-47 passed it at 3,000ft with a much greater speed and had a decidedly better angle of pull out.

4) Turning

(a) Turning and handling in excess of 250mph. The two airplanes alternately turned on each other's tail, holding in the turns as tightly as possible and alternating the turns first left then right. The P-47 easily outturned the Fw190 at 10,000ft and had to throttle back in order to keep from overrunning the FW190. The superiority of the P-47 in turning increased with altitude. The FW190 was very heavy in fore and aft control, vibrated excessively and tended to blackout the pilot.
(b) Turning and handling below 250mph. Turns were made so rapidly that it was impossible for the aircraft to accelerate. In making the usual rather flat turns in a horizontal plane, the FW190 was able to hang onto its propellor and turn inside the P-47. The FW190 was also able to accelerate suddenly and change to a more favourable position during the turn. However it was found the P-47 could get on the tail of the Fw190 by making a figure 8 in a vertical plane. In this maneuver, the P-47 , which was being pursued by the Fw190 in level flight attempted to execute a series of climbs, slow turns, and dives which would end up with the positions reversed and the P-47 on the tail of the FW190. The maneuver started with a a steep climbing turn to near stalling point, followed by a falloff and fast dive which ended in a pullout and fast climbing sweep whch again carried the plane up to the stall and fall off point. The P-47 built up more speed in the dive than the FW190 with the result that the Thunderbolt also climbed faster than the FW190 and also higher. The P-47 pilot merely waited for the FW190 to reach its stalling point below him and turned very neatly on the tail of the falling away FW190. With its much greater diving acceleration, the P-47 soon caught the FW190 in the second dive of his maneuver.

Conclusions

The P-47 with its tremendous firepower is at least as good as the FW190 at low altitude. There should be no question about engaging the FW190 in dogfight at low altitude; but it should be remembered the FW190 is a good airplane and has advantages at slow speeds.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You will notice the test describes a tactic which could be used to defeat the 190.  This spiral climb technique mirrors almost EXACTLY the technique which Robert Johnson describes having used to defeat the 190's he encountered.

And of course, the test results would have been much more in the P-47's favour had the paddle blade propellor been used.

Offline eddiek

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2001, 09:29:00 AM »
<grabs a pack of smokes, makes a pot of coffee......waits for RAM to spot this post about the 190>  
This outta be good!  An American bird doing anything better than LW iron...........BLASPHEMOUS!  
The Jug shoulda done better than the 190, since, as we all know, it was descendant of the FW190, as were all planes used in WW2.

<Sits back and waits for the fireworks>

Offline StSanta

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2001, 10:11:00 AM »
buzz, think you can provide a link to that report and find out if it was an A5 or a heavy A8?

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Offline aknimitz

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2001, 10:41:00 AM »
<S> - what a great post!  Thanks so much for the information!  For those interestes, Robert Johnson has a biography out that is just incredible.  The name of it escapes my memory, but check with akcurly sometime, he has the book.  

Now if only we could get the Jug modeled like its supposed to be :P

Nimitz

Offline flakbait

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2001, 10:46:00 AM »
The F4F Wildcats defending Henderson field had their turbosuperchargers wired open. The turbos weren't normally cleared for operation below 10,000 feet, but the ground crews did it anyway. They needed the performance boost. According to an article over at The History Net doing this burned out the engines after 25 to 50 hours of operation. The article is pretty good, I suggest you read it.

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number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb

 

Offline Widewing

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P-47 Combat Tactics 101, by Robert S. Johnson
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2001, 11:29:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by flakbait:
The F4F Wildcats defending Henderson field had their turbosuperchargers wired open. The turbos weren't normally cleared for operation below 10,000 feet, but the ground crews did it anyway. They needed the performance boost. According to an article over at The History Net doing this burned out the engines after 25 to 50 hours of operation. The article is pretty good, I suggest you read it.

Ah, I don't want to cause any upset, but the F4F Wildcat was never fitted with a turbo-supercharger. The F4F-3 and F4F-4 were powered by the Wright R-1830 with a two-speed, two-stage mechanical supercharger.

The author of the above named magazine article made a noteworthy error in his nomenclature. Most likely, what he had been told or read was that the crew chiefs of the Wildcats rigged the superchargers so that they were always in 'high blower'. This causes the engine to be over-boosted at altitudes were 'low blower' should be used. Normally, 'neutral blower was used for takeoff, 'low blower' used till about 18,000 ft, where 'high blower would be engaged. Flying at full throttle/high blower at low altitudes for long durations will inevitably cause engine damage due to detonation, especially with the R-1830 which was not as over engineered like the P&W R-1820.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.