Good 109E article

[Anaxogoras]

Since we're hijacking the thread, I've talked to people who have experienced red-out, and besides the extreme pain associated with it, normal vision does not return for at least 30 seconds.

[Krusty]

HTC needs to ramp up the ill effects a bit. Things like stick stirring, floppy-fish evasives, etc, need to be curtailed. Most planes couldn't fly upside down for more than 15 seconds before the engine was starved of oil (inline or radial, both suffered). In this game the most popular dweeby evasive is to roll inverted and push your nose up to climb while inverted, rolling left and right (while pushing the stick foward still) and/or other combinations.

In real life that plane would have plumetted downwards, and when they do it 5 feet off the deck (in AH I mean) it's even more ludicrous.

One guy in a 190 did it so long yesterday while I was sitting on his six he must have locked his controls up, and he couldn't recover (he crashed, as he was -- naturally -- on the deck), but 5 others did it with no ill effect in the same sortie.


IMO needs stricter airflow disruption and drag, loss of lift, and/or pilot fatigue and needs to kick in sooner when folks do that.

Perhaps anytime you jerk the stick from one extreme to the other your pilot gets tired, like the blackout system. You ride the black for a bit, and you're much more susceptible to a perma-blackout next time. Something like that, where the pilot gets tired when in neg-G, or when rolling repeatedly back and forth to both extremes while kicking rudder and pushing up or down. You only get "X" rapid moves in a short time frame, after which you become disoriented and black out or whatever.

[Die Hard]

Nah... The G forces experienced by our cartoon pilots is far less that those experienced by display pilots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft94cWjkaYI

[Angus]

The slat ghost is here again.
I sort of bear in mind what Rall said about them. While necessary for low speed, he hated them for hard maneuvers.
I even have it on tape, and if anyone of you can host it and link it, I'll email a clip for you.
He did get many kills though,,,

[Die Hard]

Rall didn't like them. Stigler did like them. Personal preference.

[Saurdaukar]

HTC needs to ramp up the ill effects a bit. Things like stick stirring, floppy-fish evasives, etc, need to be curtailed.

Im not sure how to impliment it, though... thats the issue.  Ive got zero military hours, but even in a civilian aircraft, you have so much more sensory input that you can draw upon to determine limitations.  Its the same problem as lacking the "seat of the pants" feel of a real car on a race track when playing a racing simulation.

That said - I wish I would have kept the film of what I saw a Pony do on Wednesday night.

Basic (and fun) furball, defending a base.  I had a bunch of speed on the deck and came in behind a 51 which had dove from altitute to get a shot at another friendly.

I had much more E than he expected, I gather, so Im not sure if it was on purpose or a knee-jerk reaction, but he actually (somehow) twisted the plane around so that it was moving forward (and decelerating rapidly) with the dead-center bottom of the fuzelage pointing straight ahead.  Like a flat spin in the horizontal.

He recovered from it but I couldnt help thinking that, IRL, the pilot would have been knocked out and the wings would have ripped right off.

[Chalenge]

I have seen stick-stirring to the point all I could do was laugh at the foolishness and the individual I am thinking of does this every time!

I think the cure would be a coded and self-induced 'green-gill effect' I mean who could stand to do that to themselves?

[Simba]

Back to the slats, I recall that Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown RN test-flew both the Bf109E and G and was of the opinion that the slats opening asymetrically when in a turn caused the ailerons to snatch and throw off the aim so badly it was impossible to get off a decent shot. One reason why the 109 was better at BnZ perhaps?

On the physical problems of flying WW2 fighters to the limits, the Bf109 was never fitted with a rudder trimmer. It was necessary to apply moderate right rudder when climbing and considerable left rudder during a dive. At higher speeds, the force needed to hold left rudder quickly tired the pilot. This combined with a very heavy elevator to make pullouts at low altitude rather trickier than for the Spitfire.

[thorsim]

i would think that would depend on what speed they trimmed it for ...

it being a point interceptor and flying for an hour or two at a time i don't think it was the big deal some people make it out to be ...

if you want to know how a plane performed in combat the combat pilots are the opinions you should be most concerned with. 

when you consider the enemy tester you quoted thought very highly of the fw190, yet many Luftwaffe pilots had a preference for the 109 i think you need to take mr. browns comments for what they are.  he was a visitor in the plane.  imo the plane that most of the highest scoring aces ever scored most of their kills in was obviously an excellent fighter, arguably the best ever. (yes you can say that about several)   

+S+

t

Back to the slats, I recall that Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown RN test-flew both the Bf109E and G and was of the opinion that the slats opening asymetrically when in a turn caused the ailerons to snatch and throw off the aim so badly it was impossible to get off a decent shot. One reason why the 109 was better at BnZ perhaps?

On the physical problems of flying WW2 fighters to the limits, the Bf109 was never fitted with a rudder trimmer. It was necessary to apply moderate right rudder when climbing and considerable left rudder during a dive. At higher speeds, the force needed to hold left rudder quickly tired the pilot. This combined with a very heavy elevator to make pullouts at low altitude rather trickier than for the Spitfire.

[Stoney]

I flew a Tomahawk that was badly out of rig on a 1.5 hour cross country once.  It required constant right rudder input to keep the ball centered during straight and level flight.  By the time I got to the destination, my right leg was numb from the effort, and that was on a Traumahawk.  Don't marginalize that kind of stuff, because the fatigue factor is huge.  Heck, the Reno Unlimited guys fly with constant rudder deflections and they all say it gets tiring.  Those races only last a few minutes or so.

[Simba]

The great Winkle was a Fleet Air Arm fighter pilot long before he became one of the world's greatest test pilots. He holds the record for flying more different types of aircraft than anyone else in history, carried out the greatest number of deck landings (including the first by a pure jet) and at the end of WW2 was commander of the 'Rafwaffe' Enemy Aircraft Test Unit at Farnborough. I'm happy to benefit from his deep knowledge and clear writing, and have enjoyed the pleasure of his company at the odd air show. You're welcome to your opinion - but I value his opinion too. Of course the Bf109 was an excellent fighter, but it had its weaknesses; the slats and lack of a rudder trimmer being two of them and pertinent to this thread.

Cheers! 

[thorsim]

yea but the trim was set at the preference of the pilot, was it not presumably for the most comfortable state for the flight condition they would be in most of the time.  

so unlike your tomahawk which was operating incorrectly most of the time wouldn't the rudder on a properly set 109 not need much attention.

i always heard the 109 had good rudder authority and few complaints about lack of in cockpit trim adjustability.

i think it was more of a "this is different, me no like" thing on the part of the tester than a real problem for the 109 pilots.

don't you think?

t  

I flew a Tomahawk that was badly out of rig on a 1.5 hour cross country once.  It required constant right rudder input to keep the ball centered during straight and level flight.  By the time I got to the destination, my right leg was numb from the effort, and that was on a Traumahawk.  Don't marginalize that kind of stuff, because the fatigue factor is huge.  Heck, the Reno Unlimited guys fly with constant rudder deflections and they all say it gets tiring.  Those races only last a few minutes or so.

i will look again but i don't remember a lot of "damn i wish i had rudder trim" statements in my recollection of 109 pilot accounts, i mean the plane was in service from the 30s to the 70s you would think a problem would have been addressed if it were a real problem.

just saying ...

t  

The great Winkle was a Fleet Air Arm fighter pilot long before he became one of the world's greatest test pilots. He holds the record for flying more different types of aircraft than anyone else in history, carried out the greatest number of deck landings (including the first by a pure jet) and at the end of WW2 was commander of the 'Rafwaffe' Enemy Aircraft Test Unit at Farnborough. I'm happy to benefit from his deep knowledge and clear writing, and have enjoyed the pleasure of his company at the odd air show. You're welcome to your opinion - but I value his opinion too. Of course the Bf109 was an excellent fighter, but it had its weaknesses; the slats and lack of a rudder trimmer being two of them and pertinent to this thread.

Cheers! 

[Die Hard]

Aileron snatching was a problem on the Emil, but was fixed on the Friedrich. In terms of production numbers, kills and as an ace maker the 109 is arguably the most successful combat aircraft of all time.

[Anaxogoras]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Spitfire also lacked adjustable rudder trim from the cockpit.  Both the 109 and the Spit lacked aileron trim, too.  We are spoiled in AH and forget, or never even learn, what went into flying the aircraft.

so unlike your tomahawk which was operating incorrectly most of the time wouldn't the rudder on a properly set 109 not need much attention.

i always heard the 109 had good rudder authority and few complaints about lack of in cockpit trim adjustability.

i think it was more of a "this is different, me no like" thing on the part of the tester than a real problem for the 109 pilots.

don't you think?

The rudder and ailerons were adjusted on the ground for level flight at cruise speed.  Throttle up and you will have to give right aileron input, and as speed increases input left rudder.  Enter a slow climb and right rudder is required.  You could simulate as much in AH by turning off automatic trim, and only adjusting elevator trim as you fly.  It's nothing too terrible, but it is a hindrance.

Personally, I'd like to see automatic-trim disabled except for the TA.

[Charge]

"but it had its weaknesses; the slats and lack of a rudder trimmer being two of them and pertinent to this thread."

Actually, the slats were not a weakness but a strength that put it on par with other planes of the era in turning performance. As could be read from that late flight test you could fly the 109 with full elevator deflection. Try that in a plane without slats.

-C+