Good 109E article

[Oldman731]

Personally, I'd like to see automatic-trim disabled except for the TA.

We'd all need to have some sort of force feedback joystick.  As Stoney points out, holding rudder trim (or aileron or elevator, for that matter) over any period of time gets somewhat wearing and distracts from your attention, but you can feel it in the controls and, if you have a trim adjustment, you can trim it out.  We can't really feel it in here, so any adjustment is going to be as abstract as the original out-of-trim condition.

- oldman

[Anaxogoras]

Abstract?  If the plane is pitching up without input, trim down.  If the ball isn't centered in level flight, trim the rudder.  If the aircraft is rolling without input, trim the ailerons.  There's nothing abstract about that.

If all aircraft had 3 axis trim, then I wouldn't think it was an issue.  But since they didn't, we're degrading the advantage of 3 axis trim for the aircraft that had it.  Axe the auto-level while we're at it.

Is this selective realism?  Of course it is.  Everything in a computer flight sim is going to be selective realism up to a point.  What's at issue is what to decide is important to model and what is not.

[Angus]

Anax, I the Spitfire had a rudder trim, so did most of the other fighters. Hence the fact that allied pilots noted the absence of it!
Oh, and because the slats threw you of your aim is the exact reason Rall didn't like them. He however said that without them, the 109's landing speed would have been unacceptably high, so it was a matter of which is more important. Well, you don't get into combat if you cannot land. Well, once
I did ask him if he ever heard about them being wired in the shut position. He found it interesting, but hadn't heard about it.

[Angus]

BTW, I did some tight turns in a slatted aircraft once. It was delightful, but the nose was wobbling. So, a matter of choice I guess, buffeting or wobbling.
Rall however linked the flaw with a very rough turn, and I know he would normally try to keep his speed up. Makes me wonder if he could have ridden those turns without them. Anyway, if you went to far, you were not just off your aim, but the outboard wing would drop, leaving you with a more direct flight or even the other direction. Happened very quickly.

[thorsim]

right, my point said better, just something you had to deal with, and got used to. 

+S+

t

P.S. one conclusion we could draw, german pilots had nicer legs 

It's nothing too terrible, but it is a hindrance.

[Krusty]

Disabling trim? Why?

Trim in AH is not the same as trim in the real plane. Trim in AH is minute inputs to the control surfaces themselves, NOT to their trim tabs. You see the stick move and the ailerons deflect when you trim your ailerons.

In real life there is no spring center, as with on our joysticks. You see you're rolling just a hair, deflect it a faction of an inch the other way, and viola, that's your new "center" point.


Stoney, I don't know personally what you went through with that rudder, but on 109s specifically, the pilots trained, kept in great shape (you read how many exercised in the down times to keep physically fit to pull more Gs, etc), and they were trained, and flew extensively, on these planes. I think they probably had a much easier time keeping their rudder centered than the average guy coming in from P51s or whatever (i.e. a US pilot testing captured LW gear).

[Chalenge]

Reading accounts of luftwaffe air battles there were several pilots that would be so fatigued they could not climb out of the cockpits. Of course they flew all day but so did some of the allies and I dont recall that same thing being reported.

[Krusty]

Depends 'round which time frame I guess... Later in the war you had untrained kids flying those things. Definitely not the same kind of stamina as you find from the polished (well... more so...) units of 1940, 1941, 1942.

[thorsim]

different kind of flying all day USAAF escorts flew to fight and flew back the to and back took up most of the day ...

109 guys flying combat sortie after combat sortie 1-3 hours at a time were bound to be more tired.  the Luftwaffe in the conditions you describe were in combat most likely at least once every sortie USAAF guys often didn't engage at all ...

so i think it is more reflective of the mission type than the trim type.

+S+

t

Reading accounts of luftwaffe air battles there were several pilots that would be so fatigued they could not climb out of the cockpits. Of course they flew all day but so did some of the allies and I dont recall that same thing being reported.

[Stoney]

Stoney, I don't know personally what you went through with that rudder, but on 109s specifically, the pilots trained, kept in great shape (you read how many exercised in the down times to keep physically fit to pull more Gs, etc), and they were trained, and flew extensively, on these planes. I think they probably had a much easier time keeping their rudder centered than the average guy coming in from P51s or whatever (i.e. a US pilot testing captured LW gear).

That flight was made while I was still in the Marine Corps, so I was still in decent shape.  Certainly not impossible by any stretch, and I'm sure it was something they got used to, but added to their fatigue, no doubt.  Doesn't mean the 109 sucked or anything, just pointing out the issue.

[Chalenge]

Depends 'round which time frame I guess... Later in the war you had untrained kids flying those things. Definitely not the same kind of stamina as you find from the polished (well... more so...) units of 1940, 1941, 1942.

I am talking about the luftwaffe 'heroes' like Hartmann who was often times so exhausted he was unconscious after landing a days worth of sorties. Thorsim has it wrong too and must be thinking of the more often reported missions from England. No I was talking about allied missions from Italy where Thunderbolts and A-36 Mustangs would take off and fly twelve miles to bomb German positions and then rtb for more ord. Some of those 'close support' squadrons (often flown even by British) flew as many times or more than the luftwaffe ever did and yes they slept soundly but they could at least climb from their planes. The 109 was poorly designed for control leverage and without trim controls they did exhaust their pilots.

[thorsim]

the 190 didn't have them either, i just think it was a different approach, not any kind of poor design or lack of engineering sophistication ...

in any case the Luftwaffe seemed to struggle through ok anyway. 

t

I am talking about the luftwaffe 'heroes' like Hartmann who was often times so exhausted he was unconscious after landing a days worth of sorties. Thorsim has it wrong too and must be thinking of the more often reported missions from England. No I was talking about allied missions from Italy where Thunderbolts and A-36 Mustangs would take off and fly twelve miles to bomb German positions and then rtb for more ord. Some of those 'close support' squadrons (often flown even by British) flew as many times or more than the luftwaffe ever did and yes they slept soundly but they could at least climb from their planes. The 109 was poorly designed for control leverage and without trim controls they did exhaust their pilots.

[Die Hard]

"Major Al Williams' Test Flight With Bf-109D

US Marine Corps Major Al Williams, Schneider Trophy competitor with his own Kirkham-Williams aircraft, Pulitzer winner from '23 and a head of the Gulf Oil Company's aviation department, had a chance to fly the latest aircraft in the German Luftwaffe's arsenal, Messerchmitt 109 D in summer 1938. Major Williams' view on the capability of the fighter gives an interesting view on the usual commentary about flying and the capabilities of the Bf 109 fighter."

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-109Dtestflight1938.html

[Anaxogoras]

Good post Die Hard.  Thanks for sharing the great link.

[Angus]

"The take-off was normal, and I estimated that the ground run was fully one-half the distance used by the Hawker Hurricane and about one-fourth the distance used by the Supermarine Spitfire."

Must have been a helicopter