May we have the Sopwith Snipe in the WWI Arena?

[bustr]

Sopwith Snipe
Manufacturer: Sopwith Aviation Company
Type: Fighter
First Introduced: 1918
Number Built: 497     <-----775 D.VII aircraft were in service at the same time.
Engine: Bentley B.R.2, 230 hp
Wing Span: 31 ft 1 in
Length: 19 ft 10 in
Height: 9 ft 6 in
Empty Weight: 1312 lb
Gross Weight: 2020 lb
Max Speed: 121 mph
Ceiling: 19,500 ft
Endurance: 3 hrs
Crew: 1
Armament: 2 machine guns

http://www.wwiaviation.com/british1918.html

A descendant of the Sopwith Camel, the Sopwith Snipe was equipped with a more powerful engine and provided better visibility from the cockpit. Though not much faster than the Camel, the Snipe had a better rate of climb and pilots found it much easier to fly.
On 27 October 1918, Canadian ace William Barker made the Sopwith Snipe famous in a single-handed battle with more than 60 enemy aircraft that earned him the Victoria Cross. Flying the Sopwith Snipe, Captain Elwyn King scored 7 victories making him the highest scoring ace to fly this aircraft.

http://www.wwiaviation.com/aces/ace_Barker_William.html

Name: William George Barker
Country: Canada
Rank: Major
Service: Royal Flying Corps Royal Air Force
Units: 4, 9, 15, 28, 66 (RFC) 139, 201 (RAF)
Victories: 50
Date Of Birth: November 3, 1894
Place of Birth: Dauphin, Manitoba
Date Of Death: March 12, 1930
Place of Death: Rockcliffe Aerodrome, near Ottawa
 
Barker joined the Canadian Mounted Rifles in December of 1914. He spent a year in the trenches before transferring to the Royal Flying Corps in April of 1916. After starting out as a mechanic, he qualified as an observer in August 1916 and shot down his first enemy aircraft from the rear seat of a B.E.2d. Assigned to England in November 1916, he soloed after 55 minutes of dual instruction and received a pilot's certificate in January of 1917.
A month later, he was back in France flying an R.E.8 until wounded by anti-aircraft fire on August 7, 1917. When he recovered, he served as a flight instructor before returning to combat duty in France. In November of 1917, his squadron was reassigned to Italy where Barker's Sopwith Camel became the single most successful fighter aircraft of the war. Logging more than 379 hours of flight time, Barker shot down 46 enemy aircraft before Camel #B6313 was retired from service and dismantled on October 2, 1918.

That month, he assumed command of the air combat school at Hounslow. Deciding he needed to brush up on air combat techniques for his new assignment, Barker joined 201 Squadron for ten days in France. During that time, he saw no action and was about to return to England when he decided to make one more excursion over the front.

On October 27, 1918, while flying alone, he encountered sixty Fokker D.VIIs flying in stepped formation. In this hreoic battle with Jagdgeschwader 3, Barker shot down four enemy aircraft despite serious wounds to both legs and his elbow. Fainting from pain and loss of blood, he managed to crash land his Snipe safely behind British lines. Barker received the Victoria Cross (VC) for this action.

Victoria Cross (VC)
"On the morning of the October 27, 1918, this officer observed an enemy two-seater over the Foret de Mormal. He attacked this machine and after a short burst it broke up in the air. At the same time a Fokker biplane attacked him, and he was wounded in the right thigh, but managed, despite this, to shoot down the enemy aeroplane in flames. He then found himself in the middle of a large formation of Fokkers who attacked him from all directions, and was again severely wounded in the left thigh, but succeeded in driving down two of the enemy in a spin. He lost consciousness after that, and his machine fell out of control. On recovery, he found himself being again attacked heavily by a large formation, and singling out one machine he deliberately charged and drove it down in flames. During this fight his left elbow was shattered and he again fainted, and on regaining consciousness he found himself still being attacked, but notwithstanding that he was now severely wounded in both legs and his left arm shattered, he dived on the nearest machine and shot it down in flames. Being greatly exhausted, he dived out of the fight to regain our lines, but was met by another formation, which attacked and endeavored to cut him off, but after a hard fight he succeeded in breaking up this formation and reached our lines, where he crashed on landing. This combat, in which Major Barker destroyed four enemy machines (three of them in flames), brought his total successes to fifty enemy machines destroyed, and is a notable example of the exceptional bravery and disregard of danger which this very gallant officer has always displayed throughout his distinguished career." VC citation, London Gazette, November 30, 1918

 

[Anaxogoras]

Already asking for the late war uber rides?  Let's have a Siemens Schuckert DIV then, too.

I can't believe you're asking for a Camel on steroids before the Spad XIII and SE5a.

[gyrene81]

I can't believe anyone is asking for new WWI planes before the starter set gets released...give HTC a chance to roll out what they have before tossing out wishes for other things.

[Gabriel]

and here we go........

IMO plane set should have started 1916  , lets work back before we start getting into 1920 Secret Weapons of the Royal Flying Corps

[Simba]

SE5a first, ol' chap, maybe followed by the Nieuport 17. For the Huns, the Albatros D series, particularly the D.III and D.V. For the French and Americans, the SPAD XIII.

Be nice to see the Fokker Eindekker and the DH2 as the basis for an 'early war dogfighters' set.

Two-seaters certainly mustn't be neglected, they were the core (excuse the pun) of WW1 air warfare: BE2c/e and RE8 for the RFC/RAF and Albatros C.III and DFW D.V for the Central Powers preferred.

And the Avro 504K to train on.

Ah well, I can dream, can't I?

 

[Bronk]

Already asking for the late war uber rides?  Let's have a Siemens Schuckert DIV then, too.

I can't believe you're asking for a Camel on steroids before the Spad XIII and SE5a.

You know it sometimes scares me, we think more often alike than not.

[bustr]

If HiTech had started in 1916 instead of late 1917 into 1918 I would not have posted this. Introducing WWI early war rides after this point will be a novelty. A D.H.2 pusher against a DrVII will not appeal to most. Fokker DrVII is an Uber ride for LW WWI. As in the 2nd world war 20 years later, Germany introduced world class technology too late to stem the tide of men and material. But, we know the veteran German pilots of both wars still dominated their fights in the the advanced technology when not dominated by the sheer numbers of men and machines finally brought to bear against them. By Aces High standards though that does not matter as we are aware. By Aces High standards the individual ability of the players coupled with the merits of the ride does. Still your average players do not appreciate a willing persuit of becoming an A6M2 master at killing NIK1.

In the LW MA we have the K4 vs. SpitXIV. Why not the Fokker DrVII vs. Sopwith Snipe? The Camel was not introduced to compete against the DrVII nor was the S.E.5a or SPAD13. They were introduced because of Bloody April and the Albatross. The DrVII was the answer to them.

Some background.

The Royal Aircraft Factory S.E.5 was a British biplane fighter aircraft of the First World War. Although the first examples reached the Western Front before the Sopwith Camel, and it had a much better overall performance, problems with its Hispano-Suiza engine meant that there was a chronic shortage of S.E.5s until well into 1918 and fewer squadrons were equipped with the type than with the Sopwith fighter. Together with the Camel, the S.E.5 was instrumental in regaining allied air superiority in the summer of 1917 - and maintaining this for the rest of the war - ensuring there was no repetition of "Bloody April" 1917, when losses in the Royal Flying Corps were much heavier than in the Luftstreitkräfte

Bloody April.

In April, the Allies launched a joint ground offensive, with the British attacking near Arras in Artois, northern France, while the French Nivelle Offensive was launched on the Aisne. Their air forces were called on to provide support, predominantly in reconnaissance and artillery spotting.

The Battle of Arras began on 9 April 1917. In support, the RFC deployed 25 squadrons, totalling 365 aircraft, about a third of which were fighters (or "scouts" as they were called at the time). There were initially only five German Jastas (fighter squadrons) in the region, but this rose to eight as the battle progressed (some 80 or so operational fighter aircraft in total).

Since September 1916, the Germans had held the upper hand in the perpetual contest for air supremacy on the Western Front, with the Albatros D.II and D.III outclassing the British and French fighters charged with protecting the vulnerable B.E.2c, F.E.2b and Sopwith 1½ Strutter 2-seater reconnaissance and bomber machines. The allied fighter squadrons were equipped with obsolete 'pushers' such as the Airco DH.2 and F.E.8, and other outclassed types such as the Nieuport 17. Only the SPAD S.VII, Sopwith Pup and Triplane could compete on equal terms with the Albatros, but these were few in number and spread along the front. The new generation of Allied fighters were not yet ready for service, although No. 56 Squadron RFC with the S.E.5 was working up to operational status in France. The Bristol F2A also made its debut with No. 48 Squadron during April, but lost heavily on its very first patrol, with four out of six shot down in an encounter with five Albatros D.IIIs of Jasta 11, led by Manfred von Richthofen.

So why didn't HiTech go with the albatross, nieuport, spad, earlier sopwith and SE5a? I suspect it's why most new players all want to fly the P51D. Marketing and what aircraft come to mind when your average number of people are asked about WWI aricraft. Sopwith Camel, Fokker DrI Triplane(Red Baron got most of his kills in an Albatross), and the Fokker DrVII. Im confused about the Bristol but, it was one of the best general fighter\bombers by the wars end.

[FLS]

Nice post Bustr. HTC might also just have picked models they like and/or models they have good info for but I expect you're right that most new players looking at a WW1 arena want to see a Camel and a Dr1. Maybe we're getting the F2b so the gunners have a ride too.    I haven't heard anything about targets for bombs in the initial release. My main ride in DoA was the Camel but I used to have a lot of fun in the F2b with CAS after he showed me how to bomb properly.

[Wmaker]

bustr,

No offence, but quite frankly it sounds like you'd want a historical arena where the opposition would be flying clearly inferior planes so that you could blow them silly Fokkers out of the sky flying your superior plane with left hand and eyes closed and call it fair because the way planes came to service in the real war and what they were opposing.

It's pretty clear that the two best fighters of the initial planeset will be Fokker D.VII and Sopwith Camel. Everything I've read about Fokker D.VII and Sopwith Camel indicates that it's going to be very closely matched pair. Fokker is probabaly faster, climbs a bit better and with a steeper angle but the Camel will be clearly better in all around maneuverability. Snipe will either be a bit faster or very very close to the Fokker, more maneuverable, and most probably climb better and be much easier to fly compared to the Camel. So, for most people, Snipe would be a no-brainer choise over both the Camel and the D.VII. Considering the limited planeset, the most stupidest thing to do at this point in the development of the planeset (only four announced aircraft) would be to add one uber plane that the vast majority of the players would fly all the time.

At least at this point, it's fairly irrrelevant which plane was introduced to compete against which. It's the overall performance of the fighters that matter and when one plane is significantly better than the small number of other planes, you'll end up with one plane arena.

IMO the next two planes should be a French scout/fighter and a German two seater. Spad XIII and Halberstadt CL.II that were introduced to the DoA early on wouldn't be bad choises. Then, the next two could be second fighters for French and the Brits. IMO ok choises would be one of the later Nieuports and SE5a.

[bustr]

Honestly instead of the DrVII I don't understand why the Albatros was not introduced. I submitted the Snipe as a bit of a Red Herring to help players think about the strengths and weaknesses of the first plane set. The Camel and DrI are good matches for each other. A Nieuport or SPAD7 would be well balanced along with an Albatros III or V. The SE5a would be a reasonable match for the DrIIV. The DrVII should be able to enter and leave the fight easier than the the Camel and Triplane. It had the distinction of being able to dive quite well. I don't think the other three in the set can with stand a dive or pulling out like it can. A SPAD could. The SPAD's greatest strength was its dive.

I suspect a biplane arena will look like a square dance with the dancers firing machine guns at the dosey do. Turn yur partner round and round, rattta tata ta ta ta ta yeh haw. 

[FLS]

I don't understand the concern that a request for a late war aircraft means that it would be the next model added after the initial 4. Does Bustr own a Scottish distillery? 

[Anaxogoras]

Honestly instead of the DrVII I don't understand why the Albatros was not introduced.

Bustr, I'm trying hard not to interpret you as believing that the Central powers aircraft should be target practice for the Entente.  The Albatros DV would not be a good match for the F1 Camel; it would be Camel meat.  The Dr1 is cool, but the Central powers need another aircraft besides one that barely does 100mph and has 3 wings, i.e. one that might be able to catch the Brisfits they're including in the arena.

We need not fear the DVII dominating because 1) 90% of combat is going to take place at 3000ft or less.  The DVII was feared for its performance above 12000 ft where the F1 Camel wallowed; 2) If the F1 Camel is anything like it was in DoA, it will be easy enough to fly to be the noob ride of choice.  Turn point shoot. 3) You will probably be able to shoot those running DVIIs from 2-300 yards out with the your Camel.  I'm remaining a skeptic about how the gunnery/ballistics will be represented until I see it.

If you want to criticize the original planeset, there's a thread for that called "WW1 plane choice."  

[Angus]

DVII was AFAIK the Ultimate Axis fighter. Next to it the DR III. The most common, the Albatross
The Ultimate Allied fighters would have been the Snipe and either the latest Spads, Nieuport (27?) or late SE5.
The ultimate two seater would probably be the Bristol fighter.
Anyway, WWI only needs a pool of some 20 aircraft to be very much up to scratch.

[smoe]

So we can do some snipe hunting?

[bustr]

When the french published a report on a DrI Triplane they had captured, they made a point of distinguishing its purpose from the Albatros. Their remark specified that the Dr.I was a direct copy of the Sopwith Triplane because of its low alt manuverability. The germans were very impressed by the Sopwith Triplanes manuverabilty vs. Albatros. Albatros were described as high speed high alt hit and run style chasers(fighters) with heavy but powerful inline engines. The Albatros could not manuver with the then underpowered but highly manuverable low atitiude sopwiths and neiuports. Thats why the german tactic of the day turned into the slogan : "Watch for the Hun in the Sun".

The D.VII had a radical change in airfoil design tested by Junkers as early as 1915 while being implimented with the Dr.I in combat. The high lift thick Gottingen design vs. the Bleriot shape which was the standard thin shape of Franch and British designs. This was why the Dr.I climbed and turned so well. With the D.7 and D.8 Razor this was refined. The Gottingen 298 airfoil had a maximum lift coefficient of 0.14 compared to the maximum lift coefficient of 0.095 for the so-called Bleriot shape which was representative of the French and British airfoils. As I have learned from this BBS, turn radius is inversely proportional to maximum lift coefficient, the Fokker D.7 had a higher lift coeficient than the French or British fighters so could get its guns to bear on those fighters more efficiently.

The 30% more lift efficient Dr7 airfoil design as with all plane sets in Aces High will still be a matter of pilot experience to find it or possibly the cusion to help the less experienced stay interested in this genra's shark tank. I'm curious why the S.E.5a was not included as an equal for the D.VII. Again I threw out the Snipe idea to engender this discussion. The Snipe had a superior climb rate to both the SE5a and the D.IIV due to its increased wing span over the Camel by 5ft and 230hp engine vs. the Camel's 130hp. But in turn the SE5a and D.VII were pretty evenly matched including at high alt.

One of the best AW WWI arena pilots I ever flew against flew the BrisFit.............