Turning point of the War.

[Angus]

Oh, the Germans were optimistic enough to start their plans about what and how once they had captured England. Hence the publishing of "guidelines for the Behavior of Troops in England"
# 5 : The Englishman is used to having even orders and instructions preceeded with the word "Please", whereas the word "Verboten" will automatically arouse resistance in him.

Tells it all 

[Die Hard]

...and what does that make in percentages? And how many were sunk by subs?  And the Tonnage?

That is relevant how?

[Angus]

It was an interesting sequence of encounters, where a part of the RN Home fleet met the bulk of the newKriegsmarine, that's all. Makes one ponder on how it totally changed the balances of the total forces.

[Die Hard]

Germany started the operation with four modern battleships, two WWI battleships, six heavy cruisers, six light cruisers and 30-odd destroyers.

While their losses during Weserübung weren't insignificant they were hardly "a big chunk of the New Kriegsmarine".

[Angus]

If you refer to the "pocket" Battleships as "Modern" battleships, they were not big enough to take on the big wagons of Britain's WWI. I had Scarnhorst and Gneisenau in mind.
I have not seen such a large number of Destroyers mentioned before, Germany only had 21 at the outbreak of the war, and built 19 more untill the war's end. So according to your numbers, it seems that they flagged about everything they had on the surface.
And 10 DD's out of 30 is.....33%. All relatively modern, built in the 30's. But out of 42 built, I get 16 commissioned after Weserubung, so they seem to be maxing at 26. A further two sank before Weserubung. 10/24 is above 40% of the TOTAL of all available Destroyers. 
Loosing a big cruiser is also loosing one out of just 2 (The 3rd one wasn't commisioned yet). I do not know which other heavy cruisers you refer to, but they had a handful of auxiliary cruisers/pirate cruisers.
Off the 6 light cruisers they lost 2, again a third. They only had six in WW2.
Then their main Battlewagons were both damaged.
So, in short, they lost a very serious part of their modern navy in one operation. Many historians claim that after the operation, the Kriegsmarine could not mount a proper force.

[RufusLeaking]

Churchill and others felt that France couldn't be saved, which is why they withheld a lot of support towards the end of the Battle of France.  They didn't want to waste RAF resources in a hopeless cause when they were going to need them at home.

I’ve read opinions that Chamberlain signed the Munich Agreement in 1938 to allow time for construction of more fighters.   If the UK was willing to write off the Czechs, bailing out on France is not beyond belief.

The German blitz in Europe was unstoppable, do you really think the British, who had incredibly few tanks, could have fared very well against the Blitz attacks either?

The early blitz was ‘not stopped.’  This is different from ‘unstoppable.’  This is a myth that even the Germans of the time bought.  It wasn’t more than a couple of years when the Allied blitzes were ‘unstoppable.’  That the Germans stopped the tanks outside of Dunkirk shows that even they saw the limits of armor in urban warfare.

The Germans early success was based as much on incompetence and unreadiness of the Allies as the superiority of their tactics.

Oh please, the Royal Navy was at the mercy of the Kreigsmarine basically until 1943.

The only branch of the German navy that had a significant strategic impact was the submarines.  In the end, 70% (?) or so of U-boats were sunk.  To say the Royal Navy (and the US Navy) was at their mercy is just not true.

[Angus]

They also stopped their tanks since Göring was confident in his Luftwaffe doing the job. Must have been a relief for the tank commanders.
Anyway, the chaotic allied air defence over France really meant that the RAF was bleeding badly, and it was only a matter of cold calculus when their main force would have been depleted. Dowding was the one realizing this and pressing the RAF evacuation through. And in a nip of time.
Here is Wiki's part on this, but I've read enough to know it's quite true.
"In 1940, Dowding, nicknamed "Stuffy" by his men, proved unwilling to sacrifice aircraft and pilots in the attempt to aid Allied troops during the Battle of France. He, along with his immediate superior Sir Cyril Newall, then Chief of the Air Staff, resisted repeated requests from Winston Churchill to weaken the home defence by sending precious squadrons to France. When the Allied resistance in France collapsed, he worked closely with Air Vice-Marshal Keith Park, the commander of 11 Fighter Group, in organizing cover for the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force at Dunkirk.

Through the summer of 1940 in the Battle of Britain, Dowding's Fighter Command resisted the attacks of the Luftwaffe. Beyond the critical importance of the overall system of integrated air defense which he had developed for Fighter Command, his major contribution was to marshal resources behind the scenes (including replacement aircraft and air crew) and to maintain a significant fighter reserve, while leaving his subordinate commanders' hands largely free to run the battle in detail. At no point did Dowding commit more than half his force to the battle zone in southern England."

And compare, RAF losses and kills over France compared to the BoB. Appalling. Dowding was right.
Did you know that at one point the French stopped a RAF squadron taking off in fear of the Germans being provoked and striking back? It was done by parking cars across the Runway.
"If France is defeated, the Germans will wring the neck of the British, as of a chicken" they however said.
Didn't quite go that way now did it?

[321BAR]

I'm going to respectfully disagree.  To my mind, not sending Spitfires to France was a major mistake, one that only looks justified because the decision entailed the result that was its own justification, i.e. the fall of France.  Without German air superiority the result of the battle could have been drastically different.

you know this is off topic but the 8th air force actually admitted to using the bomber formations as flying bait for the rest of the luftwaffe to be destroyed by our fighter escorts... and although not all of the RAF was in the fight they were still drastically outnumbered by the Germans overall... it took Hitler to order the bombing of civilian targets as said earlier to allow the RAF to reorganize a new defense and fight off the rest of the assaults.

[Anaxogoras]

I’ve read opinions that Chamberlain signed the Munich Agreement in 1938 to allow time for construction of more fighters.   If the UK was willing to write off the Czechs, bailing out on France is not beyond belief.

It's hard to bail out on an ally you never fully supported.

[Die Hard]

If you refer to the "pocket" Battleships as "Modern" battleships, they were not big enough to take on the big wagons of Britain's WWI.

The "pocket battleships" are categorized as heavy cruisers in my previous list. Lützow, Admiral Graf Spee, Admiral Scheer, Admiral Hipper, Blücher, and Prinz Eugen.

The four modern battleships I was referring to was the Bismarck, Tirpiz and the "sisters" Sharnhorst and Gneisenau. The Bismarcks were not yet commissioned, but still part of the Kriegsmarine; remember, you wrote "a big chunk of the New Kriegsmarine", not "a big chunk of the German force in Norway". Big difference.

Bismarck was arguably ready for action at the time, but didn't have a trained crew and was thus not part of the operation.

I have not seen such a large number of Destroyers mentioned before, Germany only had 21 at the outbreak of the war, and built 19 more untill the war's end. So according to your numbers, it seems that they flagged about everything they had on the surface.

See the previous comment; I wasn't talking about the invasion force, but the whole Kriegsmarine, and so were you in your "big chunk" post. 14 destroyers took part in the operation.

And 10 DD's out of 30 is.....33%. All relatively modern, built in the 30's. But out of 42 built, I get 16 commissioned after Weserubung, so they seem to be maxing at 26. A further two sank before Weserubung. 10/24 is above 40% of the TOTAL of all available Destroyers.  

33% of the destroyers yes, but not of the whole Kriegsmarine. Those ten destroyers represents about $5-6 million in production costs. Cruisers about $2-3 million a pop, battleships $7-10 million per. 10 destroyers is not a significant loss. The three cruisers were a far graver loss to the Kriegsmarine. However all the German losses combined does not make up for the loss of one fleet carrier. A fully equipped fleet carrier like HMS Glorious could cost upward of $20 million.

Loosing a big cruiser is also loosing one out of just 2 (The 3rd one wasn't commisioned yet). I do not know which other heavy cruisers you refer to, but they had a handful of auxiliary cruisers/pirate cruisers.
Off the 6 light cruisers they lost 2, again a third. They only had six in WW2.

No auxiliary cruisers mentioned. The three cruisers were a significant loss, but not "a big chunk" or a "sizable portion" of the Kriegsmarine. The later sinking of the Bismarck was a far greater blow to the Kriegsmarine.

[Angus]

Touchy Die Hard?
I see you making blunders here and could write a wall of texts and quotes to correct you. Oh, I will do some, but I'll start with the quickies. BTW, you seem to have some data that does not fit with what I have.

"Germany started the operation with four modern battleships, two WWI battleships, six heavy cruisers, six light cruisers and 30-odd destroyers.

While their losses during Weserübung weren't insignificant they were hardly "a big chunk of the New Kriegsmarine"."

I took the "operation" as an "operation" (In this case operation Weserübung) , not the second world war as a whole. Which would be completely wrong anyway.
And then for the Battleships starting in the operation, Bismarck and Tirpitz. Both were nowhere ready at the beginning of the war, not during the "Operation". Bismarck commisioned in late August 1940 and Tirpitz in January 1941.
When I say the "New" Kriegsmarine, I mean NEW. Those ships were quite new in comparison with the bulk of the RN. All because the captured fleet of WWI Germany was mostly scuttled. Basically the oldest of some importance were the light Cruisers which were from the late 20's/early 30's. Königsberg was for instance a novel, the first welded cruiser. (Not riveted). The Kriegsmarine was a fleet of NEW ships, as fast as they could be made, with the exception of a few old mammoths. The RN however had quite much antique in use.

So, in short, you seem to be taking eggs into account in a cockfight. At least that is what I call it when you pull out the names of ships uncommissioned as a force of either a beginning war or an operation. But since your numbers go now down to 14 cruisers, 10 of those being lost is a very impressive figure. That's 70% loss of a destroyer force sent into action in one operation. Me bad, my numbers low....

[Ack-Ack]

During operation Weserübung the Kriegsmarine lost one heavy cruiser, two light cruisers, ten destroyers and four u-boats. The Royal Navy (and allied navies) lost one fleet carrier, two cruisers, nine destroyers and five submarines.

With the addition of the Kriegsmarine ships that were damaged during the campaign, it only left the Kriegsmarine was a surface force of single heavy cruiser, two light cruisers and four destroyers operational.  As I stated in my previous post, this left the Kriegsmarine very weakened and incapable of properly supporting Operation Sea Lion. 


ack-ack

[indy007]

I do hope that you are just yanking our chain with both events?

Actually, I'm parroting Basil Lidell Hart. Those are his opinions, and he's a strategic and tactical genius who was in ww1, ww2, and a big advocate of a highly mobile doctrine and advancing down the lines of least resistance... the most common successful strategy ever used.

[Angus]

With the addition of the Kriegsmarine ships that were damaged during the campaign, it only left the Kriegsmarine was a surface force of single heavy cruiser, two light cruisers and four destroyers operational.  As I stated in my previous post, this left the Kriegsmarine very weakened and incapable of properly supporting Operation Sea Lion. 


ack-ack

Although I think your numbers may be low, I agree with the conclusion.
There was also another post of yours that was very good

[Die Hard]

Touchy Die Hard?

Huh? Not at all. Are you?

I took the "operation" as an "operation" (In this case operation Weserübung) , not the second world war as a whole. Which would be completely wrong anyway.

I obviously should have been more clear since you've managed to misinterpret me twice. Here let me try again: At the time of operation Weserübung the Kriegsmarine as a whole had 4 modern battleships (all launched, but two not yet fully commissioned), 2 WWII battleships, 6 heavy cruisers (1 not yet fully commissioned), 6 light cruisers, and 30-odd destroyers. "30-odd" means "around 30". Germany started the war with 21 destroyers in September 1939. A number of destroyers were launched in the last months of 1939 and winter of 1940. I didn't care to dig up the exact number... Still don't. Around 30 is good enough. If you don't agree... Tough.

And then for the Battleships starting in the operation, Bismarck and Tirpitz. Both were nowhere ready at the beginning of the war, not during the "Operation". Bismarck commisioned in late August 1940 and Tirpitz in January 1941.

Yes. Bismarck was commissioned two months after the end of operation Weserübung in June 1940. Tirpitz six months after.

When I say the "New" Kriegsmarine, I mean NEW. Those ships were quite new in comparison with the bulk of the RN. All because the captured fleet of WWI Germany was mostly scuttled. Basically the oldest of some importance were the light Cruisers which were from the late 20's/early 30's. Königsberg was for instance a novel, the first welded cruiser. (Not riveted). The Kriegsmarine was a fleet of NEW ships, as fast as they could be made, with the exception of a few old mammoths. The RN however had quite much antique in use.

Why is the age of the British ships relevant?

Ack-Ack claimed:
"The Kriegsmarine also took a battering in the Norwegian Campaign, losing a sizable portion of their modern surface units..."

My response to which you had a problem with:
"During operation Weserübung the Kriegsmarine lost one heavy cruiser, two light cruisers, ten destroyers and four u-boats. The Royal Navy (and allied navies) lost one fleet carrier, two cruisers, nine destroyers and five submarines."

So, in short, you seem to be taking eggs into account in a cockfight. At least that is what I call it when you pull out the names of ships uncommissioned as a force of either a beginning war or an operation. But since your numbers go now down to 14 cruisers, 10 of those being lost is a very impressive figure. That's 70% loss of a destroyer force sent into action in one operation. Me bad, my numbers low....

14 cruisers huh? Don't talk to me about blunders Angus. 10 German destroyers trapped in a Norwegian fjord low on fuel and ammo... Sunk by a British battleship and her 9 destroyer escort supported by carrier aircraft from HMS Furious... Impressive? I think not.

Fact of the matter is the Germans were outnumbered and out gunned. Yet they managed to complete most of their objectives and win a strategic victory. The Allied navies also suffered heavier losses.

Kriegsmarine order of battle (warships only)

2 battleships - Gneisenau, Scharnhorst (damaged by torpedo from destroyer Acasta).
2 heavy cruisers - Blücher (sunk by Norwegian shore battery), Admiral Hipper.
5 light cruisers - Königsberg (sunk by RN carrier aircraft), Köln, Karlsruhe (torpedoed and disabled by British submarine Truant, later scuttled by German torpedo boat Greif), Lützow, Emden.    
1 Pre-Dreadnought battleship - Schleswig-Holstein.
14 destroyers (10 sunk by battleship Warspite and the 2nd Destroyer Flotilla).


Allied navies order of battle (warships only)

4 battleships - Resolution, Rodney, Valiant, and Warspite.
2 battlecruisers - Renown and Repulse.
3 aircraft carriers - Ark Royal, Furious and Glorious (sunk by Gneisenau and Scharnhorst).
4 heavy cruisers - Berwick, Devonshire, Suffolk (damaged by Ju-88 bombers), and York.
13 light cruisers - Birmingham, Effingham - (grounded 17 May, later torpedoed and scuttled by HMS Matabele), Glasgow, Manchester, Sheffield, Southampton, Arethusa, Aurora, Coventry, Curlew (sunk by Ju-87 dive bombers), Enterprise, Galatea, Penelope, Emile Bertin and Montcalm.
4 anti-aircraft cruisers - Cairo, Carlisle, Curacoa, Calcutta.
35 destroyers (9 sunk).