Turning point of the War.

[Die Hard]

Well... We all know why we won

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTZU9zBuDKg

[321BAR]

Oh, the Germans were optimistic enough to start their plans about what and how once they had captured England. Hence the publishing of "guidelines for the Behavior of Troops in England"
# 5 : The Englishman is used to having even orders and instructions preceeded with the word "Please", whereas the word "Verboten" will automatically arouse resistance in him.

Tells it all 

you know. the one thing i did not like about the British Army in WWII is how they went around doing things. In Mkt Gdn? Montgomery's plan of getting into Germany? and the guidelines around how they accomplished their objectives? it meant certain failure... the entire war was governed by tactics that were becoming out of date. i think that that alone could give the Germans a chance at invading england. Their officers were the strongpoint of operations and the troops didnt think as well on their own.

[Ack-Ack]

Well... We all know why we won

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTZU9zBuDKg

How can a country that has grass that is red, light houses shaped as a banana hope to triumph and a countryside full of insects hope to triumph?


ack-ack

[Simba]

"So the Swordfish had floaters. Never knew how they dealt with them. Thought it was a one-way trip only.
Wonder if Warspite then mostly kept to itself, for it's difficult to hoist a bipe out of the sea in the middle of a battle . . ."

It was the Sea Hurricane Mk.IA that flew one-way trips over the ocean, Angus. Fired off from a rocket-powered catapult fitted over the fore-deck of an otherwise standard merchant ship that still carried its hold cargo, the Merchant Ships Fighter Unit pilot seconded from the RAF either flew on to a friendly airfield if one was close enough or bailed out and was (hopefully) picked up by one of the escort vessels. Desperate problems needed a desperate remedy - until there were enough escort carriers or MAC ships to accompany the convoys all the way.

Warspite moved into a wider area of the fjord to pick up her Swordfish, having been informed that all the German destroyers were either sunk or beached. Her 15" guns had fired a few salvoes but the destruction of the enemy was mainly left to the RN destroyers (and the solitary Swordfish!). Good point about a capital ship not wanting to hang about to pick up a floatplane in the middle of a battle; risk of effective enemy attack whilst doing so was the main reason the catapults and hangars were removed from late 1942 onwards. By the latter stages of the war, the original purpose of the catapult-launched spotter aircraft had gone because almost all combat ships above the size of trawler were equipped with radar. The ship-borne seaplane's main duty after that was Air-Sea Rescue - which kept the odd Walrus or Sea Otter busy aboard the RN's fleet carriers in the Pacific during the last year of the war.

  

[Ack-Ack]

I wonder how many Sea Hurricane pilots were lost after ditching and waiting to be picked up in the frigid waters of the North Atlantic?

ack-ack

[Simba]

Taken from The Hurricats by Ralph Barker; 1978, Pelham Books, London:

In a period of just over two years the CAMships had undertaken 175 voyages, averaging 3,000 miles per voyage. Of the total of 35 ships, twelve had been lost to enemy action. There were eight operational launchings, and although enemy aircraft were claimed to have been shot down after only six of them, none of them could be called abortive. The notion of a suicidal, one-way-ticket mission, however, proved false. Although there were several narrow escapes, only one pilot, John Kendal, was lost after an operational launching.

They also served who hung on aboard a pitching, rolling ship, instead of enjoying the comforts of home.

 

[Die Hard]

They also served who hung on aboard a pitching, rolling ship, instead of enjoying the comforts of home.

 

Yes, a soldier can at least defend himself. It must have taken great courage to go out on the convoys again and again in a clunky steel container, braving some of the worst weather on the seven seas and running the gauntlet through U-boat and Condor infested waters.

[soda72]

So what would have happened if Japan had attacked Russia on Dec 7th 1941 instead of the United States?

[Simba]

The Japanese Army in Manchuria (Manchukuo) had already fought an 'unofficial' war against Russian forces in the Khalkhin Gol in 1939; the Japanese called it the Nomonhan Incident. Result was a draw, insofar as the disputed border remained unchanged, but the Soviets claimed a victory. The distance between each belligerent's main industrial facilities and the combat area prevented the dispute developing into a major war.

Here's a Russian view of the affair: http://www.siberianlight.net/khalkhin-gol-battle-nomonhan/

Here's the Wikipaedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khalkhin_Gol

Now there's an idea for a new planeset. Nakajima Ki-27 v. Polikarpov I-153 and I-16, Ki-21 bomber v. SB-2.

 

[Angus]

What I read of Khalkin Gol basically explained as a Russian victory. It is a point though about Japan invading the USSR, for at the time of Pearl, Zhukov's army (The one that defeated the Japs in 1938) was speeding west for the aid of Moscow.
It could do so safely for the help of one person, - the spy Sorge. Sorge was based in Tokyo and gave the Russians clear information about the Japs NOT intending to deal with the USSR.
And it was Zhukov's army that helped the Russians win the battle of Moscow,- with Zhukov tied up in the east (and this is an ENORMOUS distance) or two fronts at the same time, I am afraid the Russians would have lost.
IMHO, attacking the USA was a silly thing. The Japs should have left them and tied down Zhukov insteadas well as grabbing Burma from the British. Starting with Zhukov. Well, maybe just me, but had I been Tojo, that's how I'd have done it No gamble with uncle Sam....

[Ack-Ack]

What I read of Khalkin Gol basically explained as a Russian victory. It is a point though about Japan invading the USSR, for at the time of Pearl, Zhukov's army (The one that defeated the Japs in 1938) was speeding west for the aid of Moscow.
It could do so safely for the help of one person, - the spy Sorge. Sorge was based in Tokyo and gave the Russians clear information about the Japs NOT intending to deal with the USSR.
And it was Zhukov's army that helped the Russians win the battle of Moscow,- with Zhukov tied up in the east (and this is an ENORMOUS distance) or two fronts at the same time, I am afraid the Russians would have lost.
IMHO, attacking the USA was a silly thing. The Japs should have left them and tied down Zhukov insteadas well as grabbing Burma from the British. Starting with Zhukov. Well, maybe just me, but had I been Tojo, that's how I'd have done it No gamble with uncle Sam....

From the accounts I've read, both the battles at Khalkin Gol and Lake Khasan are considered Soviet victories, with one of Japan's elite divisions, the 23rd Division being completely wiped out at Khalkin Gol.  The Soviets did take a beating at Lake Khasan but managed to push the Japanese out of Soviet territory.  Because of bad command decisions, the commander of the Soviet forces was blamed for the losses the Soviets suffered and was arrested and tortured to death by the NKVD.

In hindsight, yes the Japanese attack on Pearl was a silly thing but they felt they had no choice and also they were operating under the false assumption we would not go to war and would seek a negotiated peace.  Remember, the US had placed an embargo on vital resources that Japan needed and to Japan this was a declaration of war since they needed this resources to supply their expansionist policies in Asia.


ack-ack

[Simba]

"IMHO, attacking the USA was a silly thing. The Japs should have left them and tied down Zhukov instead as well as grabbing Burma from the British."

Dammit, he recommends that the Japanese should grab Burma. OK, in that case we'll have to keep all those P-40s intended for the RAF and not hand over any of them for use by US mercenary pilots. Or allow Calcutta to be used as a major supply centre for Vinegar Joe or Claire Chennault. We're on our own . . .

 

[crazyivan]

Was wondering if anyone else noticed.

well the east and west battles were overshadowed by those other two armies fighting at the same time.

[Angus]

"IMHO, attacking the USA was a silly thing. The Japs should have left them and tied down Zhukov instead as well as grabbing Burma from the British."

Dammit, he recommends that the Japanese should grab Burma. OK, in that case we'll have to keep all those P-40s intended for the RAF and not hand over any of them for use by US mercenary pilots. Or allow Calcutta to be used as a major supply centre for Vinegar Joe or Claire Chennault. We're on our own . . .

 

Tojo Mk II sais:
Burma = Rubber and Oil.
Skipping a war with the USA = lots more resources.
Making a war with the British = fulfilling Axis agreement(which Hitler did once the Japs made war on the USA).
Making a war with the Russians on Axis side = helping German victory. Banzai, we get the spoils of an empire:D And the USA may smile a bit, for they no like commies. Maybe lift embargo?

Jokes put aside, wasn't the main resource area Burma? Or was there much up for grabs in Malasia? Was Malasia perhaps also a key issue due to the stronghold at Singapore? I mean, in RL the Japs did both and lots more. As well as fighting the USA.

hmmm..USA or USSR, Tojo Mk II votes for the weakened USSR

[Simba]

The Japanese thrust into SE Asia was made in order to secure supplies of commodities then seen as essential to modern industrial processes. In addition to the earlier rape of much of China, the capture of Malaya netted Japan most of the world's natural rubber and tin; Singapore, the naval base and port necessary to export it and control shipping through the Malacca Straits. The Netherlands East Indies, modern Indonesia, provided Japan with the oil denied by the US embargo of mid-1941. Burma supplied them with teak and other hardwoods, New Guinea with the precious metal that had motivated the most advanced use of cargo transport aircraft in the 1930s - gold.

And all those goodies could be transported directly and easily to Japan by sea, instead of overland via limited railway and road systems - until the blockade by US Navy submarines and mines dropped by USAAF B-29s wiped out the Japanese merchant marine. So I reckon if Japan had to expand its war from China to other areas, it made the right choice in attacking the countries it did - but it should have left US possessions alone.