How many out there have experience with WWI a/c ? ?

[phatzo]

Yes I found DoA to be a 2 horse race between the DR1 and the F1, the camel was marginaly better because its wings stayed on longer.

[Mano]

The F1 and Dr1 are popular in almost all WWI sims.....or at least all the ones I have tried, with the
exception of RoF as I have not purchased the keys yet. 

I'm really curious what the terrain will be like ........ if there will be a strategy or simply furball fighting initially. The F2b was
an excellent bomber and a very good fighter. Will other players be able to attach to man the gunners position?

 
Mano

[Anaxogoras]

There's no doubt that the F1 was a fantastic dogfighter in experienced hands, but it was also a noob killer (same is true of Dr1 to a lesser extent).  I am yet to see a sim where it is not the noob ride of choice, but haven't tried the F1 in RoF yet.  However, I did read a funny description of an F1 pilot flat spinning in a dogfight in RoF, so maybe they got it right...

[Mano]

I don't believe anyone will be able to model the rotary engine. The physics equation is just way too complicated.
You have an engine that weighs between 300 and 500 pounds (Bently, Le Rhone, Oberursel, Clegert, ect) turning
between 1200 and 1600 rpms. Allot of folks don't realize that the entire engine was turning.
The Rotary Engine is a flying Gyroscope that is very very difficult to control. It turns well to the right,
but resists turning to the left. Another characteristic is being very tail heavy. RoF does
have torque modeled in their sim, but Rotary Engines is beyond even their flight sim engine.
The Camel and Dr1 had a very short fuselage in comparison to other planes of that era. If they had
been given a longer fuselage like the Sopwith Snipe,the Nieuport 28, or even the
Siemen-Schukert there would not have had so many fatalities.
Almost as many Camel drivers were killed landing and taking off as were actually killed in combat.
Both planes were both very unstable and extremely dangerous to fly. The engines also ran at full throttle.

<S>
Mano

[Anaxogoras]

RoF does
have torque modeled in their sim, but Rotary Engines is beyond even their flight sim engine.

I'm not so sure about that.  Some people who lack rudder pedals have complained about not being able to turn the Dr1 to the left.  Others have resorted to blipping the engine momentarily to turn left with the Dr1/F1.

Screw it, now I'm going to have to buy them to report back.

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Edit:

Bought the F1.  Here are my impressions:

Extremely unstable in the pitch axis.  There is a constant nose up tendency for which you have to compensate with elevator input (true with all WW1 fighters, but in the F1 it is extreme).  Careless elevator input causes wild oscillation.

Roll rate is good, but not as good as you might expect for having ailerons on the top and bottom wings.  The Albatros DV seems to roll better.

I find that to initiate a left hand turn at low speed, full rudder deflection is required (don't fly the F1 without pedals).  It does have a tendency to spin more than the other aircraft, but not so much as to be a real threat if you are on top of the controls.  Spin recovery seems easier than in the hapless Nieuport 28.

Anyway, those are some initial impressions.  Did I mention that its turn rate is fantastic?  The addition of combat trim will make a twitchy, difficult to fly plane much more docile.

[Anaxogoras]

Flying the F1 some more, but this time at high altitude: the difference cannot be overstated.  It spins, it tumbles, it's almost a worthless fighter above 12k ft.  The feeling of inferiority vs. the D.VII is very acute.

[Mano]

The Fokker D.VII used a much thicker air foil (fatter wings) and that solved the problem for high alt flying. Camel had very thin airfoil and was much better suited
to low alt fighting.

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Mano

[Anaxogoras]

The Spad XIII is supposed to have thin wings as well, but it seems very capable at altitude.

[Jayhawk]

Air Warrior III, I just remember there was usually a couple guys in there who could destroy me, so I rarely visited.

[thndregg]

SubLogic Flight Simulator (Commodore 64 ), Ace of Aces (Commodore 64 ) Brief bit of Air Warrior, not enough to really count. Yes, I'm an 80's child.

EDIT: forgot Aces of Aces is not WW1.

[Boxboy]

Mano only 334 camel pilots were killed in "noncombat" accidents of the 1400 plus lost suring the war so it had a bad rep but not as bad as some made it out to be.

[Anaxogoras]

Mano only 334 camel pilots were killed in "noncombat" accidents of the 1400 plus lost suring the war so it had a bad rep but not as bad as some made it out to be.

24% of deaths being non-combat related isn't cause for concern?

[Mano]

good article from wikipedia

Intended as a replacement for the Sopwith Pup,[1] the Camel prototype first flew on 22 December 1916, powered by a 110 hp Clerget 9Z. Known as the "Big Pup" early on in its development, the biplane design was evolutionary more than revolutionary, featuring a box-like fuselage structure, the design also used a aluminium engine cowling, plywood-covered panels around the cockpit, and fabric-covered fuselage, wings and tail. The two .303 in (7.7 mm) Vickers machine guns mounted directly in front of the cockpit, fired forward through the propeller disc with the fairing over the gun breeches creating a "hump" that led to the name Camel.[1] The bottom wing had dihedral but not the top, so that the gap between the wings was less at the tips than at the roots. Approximately 5,490 units were ultimately produced.[2]

Unlike the preceding Pup and Triplane, the Camel was not considered pleasant to fly. The Camel owed both its extreme manoeuvrability and its difficult handling characteristics to grouping the engine, pilot, guns and fuel tank within the first seven feet of the aircraft, coupled with the strong gyroscopic effect of the rotary engine. The Camel soon gained an unfortunate reputation with student pilots. The Clerget engine was particularly sensitive to fuel mixture control, and incorrect settings often caused the engine to choke and cut out during takeoff. Many crashed due to mishandling on takeoff when a full fuel tank affected the center of gravity. In level flight, the Camel was markedly tail-heavy. Unlike the Triplane, the Camel lacked a variable incidence tailplane, so that the pilot had to apply constant forward pressure on the control stick to maintain a level attitude at low altitude. However the machine could also be rigged in such a way that at higher altitudes it could be flown "hands off." A stall immediately resulted in a spin and the Camel was particularly noted for its vicious spinning characteristics.

The type entered squadron service in June 1917 with No. 4 Squadron of the Royal Naval Air Service, near Dunkirk. The following month, it became operational with No. 70 Squadron of the Royal Flying Corps. By February 1918, 13 squadrons were fully equipped with the Camel.

The Camel proved to be a superlative fighter, and offered heavier armament and better performance than the Pup and Triplane. In the hands of an experienced pilot, its manoeuvrability was unmatched by any contemporary type. Its controls were light and sensitive. The Camel turned rather slowly to the left which resulted in a nose up attitude due to the torque of the rotary engine. But the engine torque also resulted in the ability to turn to the right in half the time of other fighters,[3] although that resulted in more of a tendency towards a nose down attitude from the turn. Because of the faster turning capability to the right, to change heading 90° to the left, many pilots preferred to do it by turning 270° to the right. Agility in combat made the Camel one of the best-remembered Allied aircraft of the First World War. It was said to offer a choice between a "wooden cross, red cross and Victoria Cross."[citation needed] Together with the S.E.5a, the Camel helped to wrest aerial superiority away from the German Albatros fighters.

Major William Barker's Sopwith Camel (serial no. B6313, the aircraft in which the majority of his victories were scored,[4]) became the most successful fighter aircraft in the history of the RAF, shooting down 46 aircraft and balloons from September 1917 to September 1918 in 404 operational hours flying. It was dismantled in October 1918. Barker kept the clock as a memento, but was asked to return it the following day.

By mid-1918 the Camel was becoming limited by its slow speed and comparatively poor performance at altitudes over 12,000 ft (3,650 m). However, it was then used as a ground-attack and infantry support aircraft. During the German offensive of March 1918, flights of Camels harassed the advancing German Army, inflicting high losses (and suffering high losses in turn) through the dropping of 25lb (11 kg) Cooper bombs and ultra-low-level strafing. The protracted development of the Camel's replacement, the Sopwith Snipe, meant that the Camel remained in service until the Armistice.

With rotary engines, the crankshaft remained fixed while the cylinders and attached propeller rotated around it. The result of this torque was a significant "pull" to the right. In the hands of an experienced pilot, this characteristic could be exploited to give exceptional manoeuvrability in a dogfight. A 3/4 turn to the right could be done in the same time as a 1/4 turn to the left.

The Gnome "mono" engines did not have throttles and were at full "throttle" while the ignition was on - they could be "throttled" with a selector switch which cut the ignition to some of the cylinders to reduce power for landing. The Clerget, Le Rhone and BR1 had throttles, although reducing power involved simultaneously adjusting the mixture and was not straightforward, so it became common during landing to "blip" the engine (turn the ignition off and on) using a control column-mounted ignition switch, the blip switch, to reduce power.

The Link

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Happy Reading,
Mano

[Simba]

Camel is just a name for ships of the desert and a brand of cigarettes. Give me the SE5a every time.

 

[Boxboy]

24% of deaths being non-combat related isn't cause for concern?

I don't believe anyone said that, plus it was the highest scoring allied aircraft also.