Author Topic: Question for the history buffs  (Read 694 times)

Offline MjTalon

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Question for the history buffs
« on: November 05, 2009, 12:57:45 PM »
What was the typical USAAF Fighter Group strength in '42-'44?

No particular Theater but I'd like to get some information on this, Thanks.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2009, 01:05:00 PM »
What was the typical USAAF Fighter Group strength in '42-'44?

The 8th AF groups in England in 1943-45 were composed of three squadrons of 16 each, if memory serves.

- oldman

Offline MjTalon

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2009, 01:07:03 PM »
The 8th AF groups in England in 1943-45 were composed of three squadrons of 16 each, if memory serves.

- oldman

CC, thanks Old.
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Offline 68ZooM

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2009, 01:07:11 PM »
i did some looking, and im not going to paste all that was in there, BUT go to Wikipedia.com i typed in....... USAAF Fighter Group strength in '42-'44?  in the Search Bar  and got close to 500 pages of Reference material, Good Luck and hope your answers are there for you.  :salute
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Offline Baumer

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2009, 01:12:56 PM »
Here's a PDF that you can look up individual USAAF squadrons and groups to get a good idea of the size.

[NOTE;] It's a big pdf so it may take awhile to download

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/combat_sq_of_the_af_wwii.pdf
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Offline MjTalon

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2009, 01:14:22 PM »
Here's a PDF that you can look up individual USAAF squadrons and groups to get a good idea of the size.

[NOTE;] It's a big pdf so it may take awhile to download

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/combat_sq_of_the_af_wwii.pdf


Thanks Buamer!
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Offline Soulyss

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2009, 01:34:23 PM »
I would guess that there would be a pretty big difference between "paper" strength and actual planes that they could put in the air, particularly in New Guinea in 1942.  The 5th AF there was pretty near the bottom of the supply chain and there are numerous stories about having to chop 2-3 damaged, wrecked/damaged planes up and paste them back together to make one flying plane because they didn't have enough spare parts to go around, let alone new aircraft from the states.

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Offline A8HatTrick

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2009, 07:38:13 PM »
Good Question.

short answer is this:

Depending on the mission and the airframe it could be anywhere from 16-24 that made up a squadron. Typically 3 squadrons made up a wing (same airframe) and up to 6 squadrons for a composite wing (Dissimiler aircraft).

North Africa typically saw alot of composite wings (bombers/fighters/transports/GP and heavy fighters)

Also, are we talking Navy or Army Air Corps ground based flying units.  Navy tended to not multirole their airframes as much as the Air Corps did.

anyway, it can get complicated. So go with the original statement 16-24
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Offline MjTalon

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2009, 07:42:04 PM »
Good Question.

short answer is this:

Depending on the mission and the airframe it could be anywhere from 16-24 that made up a squadron. Typically 3 squadrons made up a wing (same airframe) and up to 6 squadrons for a composite wing (Dissimiler aircraft).

North Africa typically saw alot of composite wings (bombers/fighters/transports/GP and heavy fighters)

Also, are we talking Navy or Army Air Corps ground based flying units.  Navy tended to not multirole their airframes as much as the Air Corps did.

anyway, it can get complicated. So go with the original statement 16-24

My question is, Fighter Group strength, I understand that the standard squadron normally operated between 16-24 A/C so the Fighter Group's strength would stand somewhere multiplied by 3 of 16-24 is what I'm asking.

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Offline A8HatTrick

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2009, 08:01:22 PM »
Back then, and somewhat the case now, Group is interchangeable with WING.

These days :

192d Fighter Wing contains the 149th FS.

1st Fighter Wing contains the 27th 94th and 71st fighter squadrons

Back Then, replace the word wing with group..

sorry for the confusion earlier.

In a squadron, you would have 16 fighters. it would be comprised of two flights of 8 aircraft each.  On any given "Mission" you would send up 4 aircraft from each flight to comprise two seperate formations. One would be deligated as flight lead.

It was not uncommon to have a few less or even a few more aircraft up depending on the # of healthy aircraft and pilots. But typically between petrol shortages, crew rest, parts available and generally health of the fleet kept most down.  And, it was common practice to have an aircraft RTB in good enough shape to be returned to duty, but being bad off enough to be considered "Lost".  They then would .. "Hide" the aircraft and use it for spare parts and request a new one in its place. 

Some stories even say that those aircraft would eventually get patched up enough to return to service, so you could end up with 17 or more aircraft in a fighter squadron, but only 16 officially. They did the same for all airframes.  The begginings of the "Hangar Queens / Canned Bird" where they would cannabilize parts off of it.



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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2009, 09:24:08 PM »
By late in the game in the ETO there were 70+ aircraft in each group.  Early on it would have been 3 squadrons of 12 making up group strength on a mission, but later this increased as pilots and aircraft did with two 'groups' from the same fighter group flying different missions the same day.

Looking at one Rabaul mission in late October 43 by the 5th AF.  5 different 38 squadrons went, but not in group strength.  They operated as squadrons even though for example all three squadrons of the 475th were up.  433rd and it's 12 38s flew a different route while the 431st and 432nd with a dozen each covered 25s.  39th with a dozen 38s, the 9th FS with a dozen 38s and the 80th Headhunters with a dozen 38s also flew sweeps in and around the 25s.

It generally seems like it was 18 planes in a squadron to keep 12 flyable for each squadron every mission in 42-44

In regards to a Wing in WW2.  That was the RAF set up with a wing being anywhere from 2-4 squadrons.  Individual squadrons came in and out of a Wing however, not like the USAAF.  The Spit XII wing at Tangmere for example was 2 squadrons, 41 & 91 made up of Spit XIIs.  Generally a Wing was 3 squadrons like a USAAF Group.  The 4th FG when it transitioned from the RAF to USAAF was 71, 121 and 133 Squadrons RAF, that were numbered 334, 335 and 336 with the USAAF making up the 4th FG at Debden.
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Offline SkyRock

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2009, 09:50:42 PM »
not to derail..
but..
There are two sportsmanship award finalist posting in this thread....
sorry you two...
but.. 
knowing and respecting the historical aspect of why we like this game.... 
holds value in appreciating the fact that we get to honor those who....   
fought this war for real... 
and..
sacraficed...     
some with their very being,....   
all that they could muster from their soul.

The honor is all ours to learn of their plight!   :salute

 :cheers:



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Offline danny37

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2009, 05:46:47 AM »
What was the typical USAAF Fighter Group strength in '42-'44?

well not to be a smart arse or derail the OP, but just fyi,there was no USAAF until 1947,up until then it was the United States Army Air Corps,and was under command of army commanders. alot of people dont realize that the uniteds states didnt have an official air force branch of the military until it was created in 1947.when it became a seperate branch and no longer took its orders from army commanders. :salute
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 05:48:49 AM by danny37 »

Offline Boxboy

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2009, 07:47:29 AM »
well not to be a smart arse or derail the OP, but just fyi,there was no USAAF until 1947,up until then it was the United States Army Air Corps,and was under command of army commanders. alot of people dont realize that the uniteds states didnt have an official air force branch of the military until it was created in 1947.when it became a seperate branch and no longer took its orders from army commanders. :salute

I hate to tell ya this but USAAF stands for United States Army Air Force, the one you are grasping for is USAF when the Air Force did finally break from the Army :D
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Question for the history buffs
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2009, 07:50:53 AM »
well not to be a smart arse or derail the OP, but just fyi,there was no USAAF until 1947,up until then it was the United States Army Air Corps,and was under command of army commanders.

wrong

I hate to tell ya this but USAAF stands for United States Army Air Force, the one you are grasping for is USAF when the Air Force did finally break from the Army :D

correct :)


United States Army Air Corps became United States Army Air Forces in 1941.
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