name this plane (13)

[Dmitry]

   
Widewing if ya gonna answer again in 5 min I will quite    Yeah I know its easy for ya... lol soon I will run out of russian A/C and will start posting a really weird ones  

{edit} Decided to slowly move to something else now   not a weird at all and should be easy also, but hey - its a start
 

I have made a lot of post with russian A/C to perhaps point out how many Russian planes have been built - and YES if that is possible I want to see some more russian A/C in AH...

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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty

[This message has been edited by Dmitry (edited 03-16-2001).]

[ra]

Is the top one a Yak-4?  And I think the bottom one is a German experimental, much copied by USSR and US after the war, ME-P1101.

ra

[This message has been edited by ra (edited 03-16-2001).]

[Dmitry]

Absolutly correct  

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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty

[funked]

You can read about that Messerschmitt here:  http://www.nitro.co.za/warbirds/plane-guess.html

The planform is suspiciously similar to that of the North American Sabre...

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by funked:
You can read about that Messerschmitt here:  http://www.nitro.co.za/warbirds/plane-guess.html

The planform is suspiciously similar to that of the North American Sabre...

Naw, the Sabre was developed alongside the FJ-1 and was originally put on paper long before German swept-wing data fell into Allied hands. After getting a look at the German data in the summer of 1945, Lee Atwood and the XP-86 design team decided that this data indicated that a swept wing would allow higher speeds and greatly reduce the onset of the compressibility shock wave. Atwood noted that the German data was relatively crude and set out to refine the science. After countless wind tunnel hours, they arrived at an airfoil section and sweep angle that resulted in 30% less drag than the German designs. A redesign of the XP-86 was proposed to the USAAF, which promptly agreed in September of 1945. This was well before the P.1101 was shipped to the United States. Moreover, the P.1101 arrived in a damaged condition and was turned over to Bell Aircraft. Bell then built a close copy that was designated as the X-5. See:
 http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/modern_flight/mf56.htm

The primary functional difference between the P.1101 and the X-5 was that the latter could change its wing sweep in flight, whereas the German aircraft could do so only on the ground. Even with twice the available thrust, the X-5 was initially slower than the more aerodynamically refined XP-86. This clearly implies that that the X-5 was not nearly as clean as the Sabre prototype. Moreover, it clearly shows that the P.1101 would not have offered performance any better than the Me 262 on no more than half the thrust of the 262. Ultimately, the German uberjets were doomed by the lack of an adequate engine. Low thrust and egg shell durability were the hallmark of the early German turbojet designs. Perhaps, the most overlooked factor is that there was no improvement foreseen in German jet powerplant design. When we look at how the more advanced German jet designs fared after the war, we see that they were generally considered to be failures, or at best (in the case of the X-5) marginally useful. Kurt Tank took his Ta-183 design to Argentina, where he went on to build a refined version named the FMA I.Ae.33 Pulqui II. It was a dismal failure. The Soviets quickly discovered the limitations of the Ta 183, and produced their MiG-15, which embodied many refinements and improvements. Yet, even the MiG was behind the Sabre in drag and aero limited speed. Indeed, the MiG, while faster at high altitude in level flight, was badly outclassed below 20,000 ft. Of greater importance, the Sabre could exceed Mach 1 in a dive. This was a significant advantage. because the MiG was not only incapable of such speeds, it suffered from a dynamic instability that could cause a complete loss of control, the results usually being fatal.

In conclusion, most aviation historians are in agreement that the German uberjets were little more than concept aircraft, that were at least two years from production, and were to be constrained by the low-power and highly unreliable engines available. Germany had fallen behind in the technology race by 1945. Moreover, its dwindling resources and multiple programs (read that as too many programs) had restrained any new development to the point where advanced designs would never grow to maturity, even if the war had lasted into 1946. Those who enjoy speculating on the German proposals and other paper-only designs, would do well to have a look at the concepts being considered in the U.S., Britain and USSR in 1944-45. You will quickly note that Germany's lead would have been very short-lived.

My regards,

Widewing



[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-17-2001).]

[Andy Bush]

Gotta love the early jet period!

>>a look at the concepts being considered in the U.S., Britain and USSR in 1944-45<<

Do you have any sources for this info?

Thanks.

Andy

[Westy]

 Thank you widewing. The Sabre shares about as much with the P1101 as the eagle does with a pigeon. I went thru this baloney on the WW2O boards with some neo-Luftwobbles about six months ago and I only wish you could have done it here first (nice ammo)  
 
 -Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-18-2001).]

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Widewing:

I am curious how you feel the Mig-15 was badly outclassed below 20k. Everything I have read indicates this plane was not outclassed by the Sabre anywhere, it's only real weakness was less power on the original Mig-15 (as opposed to the Mig-15bis) and it's instability in supersonic conditions.

In fact IIRC pilots who flew captured Mig-15 were astounded by the plane and felt it was probably the superiour plane in the conflict if put in a competent pilots hands.

Sorrow

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Gotta love the early jet period!

>>a look at the concepts being considered in the U.S., Britain and USSR in 1944-45<<

Do you have any sources for this info?

Thanks.

Andy

You betcha. Last summer I co-wrote an article with Warren Bodie on the development of the Lockheed XP-90 Penetration Fighter. To write this piece, I was mailed a copy of the design file which Kelly Johnson had given to Bodie in the early 1970s. Included in this were concept drawings dating to 1943 that included a forward swept wing P-80, and the basic layout for what would become the F-104. This was dated 1945. It would take another 7 years of refinement to convince the USAF to fund its being developed, but the concept existed in 1945! North American was at work on several advanced concepts as early as 1944, including a pulsejet augmented, swept-wing Mustang. They actually flew a P-51D with pulsejets installed on the wingtips. Northrop was working on the rocket powered MX-324 in 1943, and the turbojet XP-79 would soon follow. Republic began design work on the XP-84 in 1944, with several variations being considered with the mixed power of turbojet and rocket. In January of 1946, this came to fruition with the authorization to develop the XP-91. Two years later, the USAF squeezed out enough money to fund the construction of the XF-91 Thunderceptor, which was capable of speeds well in excess of 1,100 mph.

We should also include Vought's XF6U-1, which started out as a swept-wing design in 1944, but reverted to a conventional platform after the Navy reviewed and rejected the initial design concept. Vought also penned the XF7U-1 during the later part of 1944 into early 1945. Both of these designs pre-date the availablity of German swept-wing data.

Likewise, while McDonnell had designed the XFD-1 in 1943, and its replacement, the XF2H-1 Banshee in 1944, it had other projects in mind as well. The first concept drawing that would evolve into the XP-88 Voodoo was presented to management in February of 1945. By May of the following year, the completed design was submitted to the USAAF for competition against Lockheed for the Penetration Fighter contract. Let's look at Bell. They began design work on the XP-59A in September of 1941. What most people forget or fail to realize is that the P-59 was never intended to be anything more than a test-bed. It eventually evolved into an advanced jet trainer, for the purpose of preparing pilots for the new P-80A coming into service in early 1945. Bell offered their XP-83 in 1944, and it was flown in February of 1945. It was at this time that Bell showed the AAF its concept for the XS-1 research plane, that made its first flight less than a year later. You can trace the origins of Boeing's XB-47 to the model 432 proposal of 1944. Back in 1939, designers at Vultee had prepared drawings defining a delta wing, rocket powered fighter. This was the result of a major design study using the research of Alexander Lippisch. After the war, Lippisch was hired by Convair (the war- time merging of Consolidated and Vultee) to assist in development of the their pre-war design. Designated as the XP-92 (later XF-92), the rocket powered design was abandoned in favor of a turbojet. This delayed the program for nearly 18 months. However, the resulting XF-92A would evolve into the F-102 and F-106. That same technology would produce the remarkable B-58 Hustler.

We must not forget that Soviets were working on rocket powered interceptors before the Germans. They were fitting ramjets to I-152 biplane fighters in 1939. They were also experimenting with air-reaction compressors in the mid 1940s. This resulted in the MiG-13 which saw operational service in limited numbers. Their MiG-9 was concieved in the fall of 1944. They also built their B-5 rocket plane, which was not unlike the Bell XS-1 in concept and execution.

Generally, we know where the Brits were with the Meteor and Vampire. However, who remembers the Gloster E.1/44 which began construction in 1944, and eventually exceeded 600 mph?

There were a great many concepts that were on paper during the war that were as advanced as those now touted by the Luftwaffe mafia as being war winners had Germany not been "overwhelmed by numbers". Of course, any reasoned and thorough investigation will quickly establish this as complete nonsense. Indeed, Britain and the U.S. had a huge lead in jet engine technology that Germany could not overcome, no matter how long the war continued.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

   

Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Widewing:

I am curious how you feel the Mig-15 was badly outclassed below 20k. Everything I have read indicates this plane was not outclassed by the Sabre anywhere, it's only real weakness was less power on the original Mig-15 (as opposed to the Mig-15bis) and it's instability in supersonic conditions.

My understanding, based upon discussions with pilots who hae flown both types (in one instance, extensive MiG-15 time) is that the MiG was much less efficient at retaining energy, and this was especially noticed at lower altitudes where the Sabre is notably faster. Combine that with the lesser drag of the Sabre and the MiG is at a disadvantage. In overall maneuverability the MiG holds a slight edge in turning radius. However, this is only an issue if speeds drop to under 250 mph. Above that, turning radius is generally limited to the pilot's and airframe's ability to withstand G loading. Below 20,000 ft, the F-86 found itself less likely to encounter the wing-roll problem of the early models. This allowed for greater roll rates. In addition, as the altitude went down, the speed differential went up between the MiG and the Sabre. Generally speaking, the only altitude where the MiG was faster was above 45,000 ft. Up here, the Nene based VK-1 engine was notably more efficient than the early Sabre's J-47. However, the later J-47s would produce greater power at thses altitudes. I won't bother to discuss the original MiG-15, as it was markedly inferior to the MiG-15bis, which was the far more common aircraft encountered over Korea.

   

In fact IIRC pilots who flew captured Mig-15 were astounded by the plane and felt it was probably the superiour plane in the conflict if put in a competent pilots hands.

Sorrow

Two pilots did the initial testing of the captured MiG. These were Captains Chuck Yeager and H.E. 'Tom' Collins. Both men gave the MiG high grades, but also noted that it suffered from serious weaknesses that could be easily exploited by pilots flying the F-86. Yeager nearly got himself killed diving the MiG from altitude. Years later, engineers from MiG were amazed to find out that Yeager had survived, in that he was the only pilot that he was aware of who had done so.

I tend to agree that the MiG was good enough that had it been in service with the USAF, and the Sabre with the Communist air forces, the kill ratio would have been similar to that which actually existed. Indeed, there is little doubt that the superior training and tactics of American pilots was the deciding factor over North Korea. Even the best Soviet pilots got the hell beat out of them.

I wonder if you or anyone else is aware of an encounter between a group of Navy F9F Panthers and a larger formation of Soviet flown MiG-15s? I have the story somewhere in my files. However, the short version is that the Navy F9Fs gave then Soviets an unexpected beating, having decided to tangle with the Panthers at low level. If anyone is interested, I'll dig out the story and post it here. It is an ideal example of how superior skills and tactics can overcome better enemy equipment.

My regards,

Widewing


[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-18-2001).]

[Nath-BDP]

   

Naw, the Sabre was developed alongside the FJ-1 and was originally put on paper long before German swept-wing data fell into Allied hands.

The 2 XP-86 prototypes and a static test that the USAAF contracted for in August 1944 had a straight wing with laminar flow sections of the wing. As early as 1944, however, American designers knew about the German's use of swept wings on their latest fighters to decrease the onset of compressability drag. And by June 1945 NA designers knew that some of these new German jets fell into the hands of American forces who immediatly after looking over them appreciated the obsolecent wing surface of their XP-86 and  XFJ-1 designs, and thus made an argument with the USAAF to allow them to redesign these aircraft with swept flying surfaces. In November 1945 the XP-86 mock-up with swept wings and longer fuselage was revealed.

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-18-2001).]

[Andy Bush]

Widewing

Thanks much!

Do you have Jay Miller's book, Skunk Works?
Much good info and hard to find photos.

Andy

[Dmitry]

Speaking about performance of Sabre vs. MiG15bis in Korea everyone will have to understand that one of the main roles in encounters of such planes were based on the strategy. While UN forces (read USA forces) were still using tactics from WW II (escorting buffs) MiGs had no problem with engaging and wining the competition. Also saying that Sabre was a better plane in every aspect is also feels wront to me. MiG15 bis was extremly durable and very good performer  especially at high altitudes. With combined heavy armoment it gave such a punch that Sabre couldnt wistand. Also while Sabre was all purpose fighter, MiG was clearly aggressive type... Pilot in MiG could decide when, how and where to engage and dissengage the fight. Think of it as 1.05 AH's pony... All together tactics that Sabre pilots were have to use and performance of MiG have made the Korean War what it was - another terrible misstake where ppl lost their lifes....

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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty

[ispar]

...bugger... please ignore.

[This message has been edited by ispar (edited 03-18-2001).]

[Raubvogel]

The design that Kurt Tank would eventually build in Argentina was certainly not the TA-183. Tank was not the brains behind that design. The engineer who was responsible for that ended up in the Soviet Union after the war. The Pulqui was Tanks' best attempt at copying the design.

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Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps