Author Topic: Lets talk about flaps shall we?  (Read 1983 times)

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« on: November 06, 2009, 12:57:05 AM »
I noticed a very common use of flaps amongst F4U and P38 pilots that I simply do not have any understanding of. By that I mean in my experience it makes absolutely no sense so I have to ask for clarification from the aeronautics minded here.

Lately I have been fighting a lot of F4U pilots that use scissor type moves in defense. I dont have a problem with that because it was after all a Navy tradition to weave (I think its in the blood or something after all that weaving about in ships avoiding torps). But all that aside I see these same planes get to a point where they are too slow to turn well and then they turn even better! So I went and examined some film and I discovered that they are dropping up to three notches of flaps and then turning hard before immediately pulling the flaps up again. Of course I recognize that the F4U has great acceleration but this would seem to be pure and simple folly! I mean if planes had some advantage in doing this (in the real world) then they would have some mechanism tied between elevator and flaps would they not? I tested it with the F4U-1D and found the instantaneous use of flaps boosts the climb by as much as 2000 feet per minute and the nose of the plane DOES NOT appear to get any more nose heavy in feel or effect.

So tell me once and for all... is this abuse of the flight model or not? Please explain in detail why and be prepared to defend your position no matter which side you take. If this has been discussed before please link it I want to learn more!

If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline AKDogg

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
      • http://aksquad.net/
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2009, 05:01:50 AM »
The F4U is one of the worst accelerators in the game besides the -4 or in a dive.  Straight and level, zekes, 190's and alot of others can out accelerate her.  Now, if u saying u put flaps down before the turn, then that pilot don't know what he is doing or is putting himself in a bad position.
AKDogg
Arabian knights
#Dogg in AW
http://aksquad.net/

Offline Saurdaukar

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8610
      • Army of Muppets
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2009, 09:32:18 AM »
Or attempting to force an overshoot...

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2009, 09:44:12 AM »
Chalenge,

I never put my flaps out BEFORE a turn, only during a maneuver if I need the boost--especially coming over the top of a vertical maneuver--or that extra "oomph" in the turn to get lead on a target, and I pull them up again the instant I no longer need them. I rarely go more than two notches if I can avoid it, especially in larger fights, because of the Corsair's troubles regaining lost E. It's only 1v1 situations where I feel free to go to full flaps (rare exceptions such as my 2v1 against a 109K and Spit XIV a couple months back do occur).

Keep in mind, also, that the Corsair's flaps generate a SIGNFICANT amount of lift. This is evident just by looking at the actual Vought operator's manual with the large reduction in stall speed as the flaps come down (I think power-on stall had as much as a 35-40% reduction in stall speed with full flaps, if not more).

Personally, however, I find that effective use of the Corsair's massive rudder is just as, if not MORE, important to being successful in the F4U.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2009, 09:51:06 AM »
flaps change the lift characteristics of the wing, along with it's camber, and its general shape.


they help you get around, but if you leave them out, you hurt yourself more than anything.

if i'm not mistaken, the f4f's did have some sort of automatic flap....or was it the f6f? i think some japanese planes did too, but not sure......
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2009, 09:56:34 AM »
Cap,

The F4U and F6F had spring-operated flaps. Pilots could set two notches and airflow would cause the flaps to be pushed back up. As the aircraft decelerated the flaps would automatically deploy. So not automatic PER SE, but functionally yes.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12425
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2009, 10:02:24 AM »
Chalenge: First putting flaps out will not increased climb rates, it is just equivalent to pulling your nose up, yes climb rate goes up for a few secs as your speed goes down.

2nd all that is happening is that they are sacrificing a lot of speed  for  a short duration turn. Once turn is complete they want flaps up to decrease the drag and accelerate.


HiTech

Offline thorsim

  • Parolee
  • Restricted
  • ****
  • Posts: 1029
      • The Luftwhiner Lounge
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2009, 10:16:51 AM »
maybe challenge is just bored ...

the penguins are cute but they cause me to question how serious this thread is ...
 
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2009, 10:35:02 AM »
 It's been quite many updates since the last version I've tested, which I'm pretty much confident to say quite thoroughly and accurately.

 Under the premise that those many updates did not fundamentally change each and every plane in its flight characteristics so far as to produce individual results that are drastically incompatible between each versions, I can vouch for the P-38 that there's nothing wrong with how its flaps effect combat flight.

 Under my tesitngs, I was quite surprised to find out and confirm, that the AH P-38J and L variants were one of the worst maneuvering planes in terms of turning radius - with or without flaps, which is pretty much spot on with historical accounts - at least, with some sources such as described in the commentaries and excerpts of <America's Hundred Thousand> et al..

 The empirical disparity between its perceived performance inside the MA, and its actual turning radius under controlled circumstances, is a very compelling evidence that the P-38 in AH, in theory, shows unique strengths which allows it to overcome its poor turning radius - namely, a torqueless platform that boasts very high levels of stability than compared to a normal, single-engined aircraft.

 It's not that the P-38 turns better than others with/without flaps per se - but rather, the torqueless/stable nature of the P-38 platform allows it to dump speed and enter minimized, tight turns quicker than any other single-engined aircraft.

 A normal aircraft - despite its lighter, and more maneuverable envelope - must often struggle to maintain critical balance to sufficiently lose speed and enter very tight turns, and must keep on struggling against imminent effects of violent destabilization at those speeds (particularly in the roll axis) to maintain the radius, whereas the P-38, in a sense, can safely enter a turn and keep tightening its radius without any delay.

 Most often, this difference manifests in the MA in the form of a fight that begins with the P-38 on initial offensive, and the pilot on the defensive finds himself in a puzzling situation where no matter how hard he tries to outturn the P-38 behing him (which should supposedly be unable to match his own turn radius), the P-38 just cannot be shaken off.

 What happens, is that in the initial stages of this battle, the P-38 behind the defending aircraft slows down a lot faster, and thus, gains a firing solution. Even after the fight devolves into a slow-speed turn contest (provided the P-38 has failed to shoot down the defending aircraft in the initial stage of the battle), the defending plane struggles throughout the many circles to keep his plane from destabilizing and spinning out on the roll axis, and at the same time trying to tighten his turn more and moe  - whereas the P-38 behind him with flaps out, more or less comfortably maintains perfect balance throughout the circles and still maintains a firing solution.

 It is only when the P-38 fails to shoot down the defending aircraft in the above two stages of the battle, that the "real" difference in the turning radius starts to kick in, and the P-38 finally starts losing ground in the turning contest.

 I've often met similar circumstances when flying in the Ki-84, a very powerful, maneuverable plane that is capable of outturning most Spitfires and matching the Spit5 in turning radius - against a P-38.

 Because the Ki-84 (despite being a single-engined aircraft) has the same type of efficient flap configuration as the P-38, it flies very similarly to the P-38, at least, in horizontal turns. As long as you can dump speed quickly enough to pull out the flaps, the Ki-84 can maintain an incredibly tight turn radius and chug through turns cleanly and stably at imminent stall speeds.

 This makes the Ki-84 a very good match against the P-38, and often a turning contest lasts many circles, until finally, the P-38 losesconsiderable momentum, and reaches dangerously low speeds - at which point, the superior turning capability of the Ki-84 finally starts to show advantage, and decisively outturn the P-38 in the horizontal.

 This is very impressive on the part of the P-38, considering the fact that its true turn radius simply is no match for the Ki-84. Despite this difference, even the Ki-84 needs a lot of time to finally win the low-speed, super tight turning contest against a P-38.

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2009, 10:36:09 AM »
Cap,

The F4U and F6F had spring-operated flaps. Pilots could set two notches and airflow would cause the flaps to be pushed back up. As the aircraft decelerated the flaps would automatically deploy. So not automatic PER SE, but functionally yes.

ok...that's the system i was talking about.....just couldn't remember the whole thing.
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline boomerlu

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1163
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2009, 02:18:45 PM »
Kweassa, there's also the issue of turn RATE and flap deployment speeds.

Turn rate wins nose-to-tail fights, turn radius wins nose-to-nose fights. The 38 maintains a decent turn rate even at full flaps (just over 20 dps). It can also deploy flaps much sooner, allowing it to gain a disproportionately large angles advantage at the beginning of the fight, which the KI84 can only make up for later. Remember, angles advantage is proportional to (Turn Rate Advantage * Time). From what I understand, 38 uses its flaps to gain the turn rate advantage early in the fight, going for a shot or at least staying competitive. This has much less to do with stability, although stability is admittedly a huge advantage of the P38.

Seeing as how the 38's main disadvantages are turn radius and roll rate, a scissoring fight might be the best option.
boomerlu
JG11

Air Power rests at the apex of the first triad of victory, for it combines mobility, flexibility, and initiative.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2009, 04:36:54 PM »
This is a film that pretty much shows what Kweassa was talking about in regards to the flaps and slow speed handling of the P-38.  It's a fight against a Bf 109F.

P-38J vs. Bf 109F


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2009, 04:56:08 PM »
Chalenge: First putting flaps out will not increased climb rates, it is just equivalent to pulling your nose up, yes climb rate goes up for a few secs as your speed goes down.

2nd all that is happening is that they are sacrificing a lot of speed  for  a short duration turn. Once turn is complete they want flaps up to decrease the drag and accelerate.

Yes that seems like reality and considering some other posts I see what the problem is with the films I have been looking at. When a pilot uses his rudder that does not show in films so if the guy is using hard rudder to make a corner you cannot see it later. My counter is (usually but not always) to nose up and if they try to follow they do not have over the top speed anymore and have to drop their nose and give up their six.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2009, 04:58:09 PM »
This is a film that pretty much shows what Kweassa was talking about in regards to the flaps and slow speed handling of the P-38.  It's a fight against a Bf 109F.

P-38J vs. Bf 109F
ack-ack

AckAck could you get a 4shared.com account? (its free)... My browser has mediafire banned.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Lets talk about flaps shall we?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2009, 06:15:40 PM »
never mind, Boomer already covered it.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."